Might like a Leica-like...

ChrisR

ChrisR

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Still wondering about the OC/OL/OF/OY idea, and as part of that, wondering about a rangefinder. I've been scouring the web for information about Leica-like cameras, as the real things are just too expensive to justify. My thoughts so far:

- Bessa R3A sounds nice but very expensive, AFAICS. Like the idea of a 1:1 finder, but the frameline set might be an issue
- Bessa R2A also nice, also expensive, better selection of framelines?
- Minolta CLE is pumped up hard by that Ken Rockwell, looks really nice, but again the 28-40-90 framelines. Also no metering in manual mode.
- Konica Hexar RF also looks nice, stacks of frameline options, motor wind and rewind... would that be limiting if I'm going to process my film with the Rondinax and want the end left out?

40mm sounds a decent focal length, although I wasn't that excited by it with my QL-17. But the available M-mount 40mm lenses are all tiny (good) but with apparently very narrow focus rings with added tab, which again I didn't like with the QL-17. I need to carry a fair bit of the camera weight with my left hand; using the SLR I can do that while turning the (easy-to-feel) focus ring, but on the QL-17 I had to get my hand off the lens, supporting the camera with my dodgy right hand, then find and move the focus tab... The 50 and 35mm lenses seem to have a bit more of a ring...

I dunno, I'm all over the place, might come to nothing, but any thoughts?
 
Meant to add, if buying something for, say £500 via fleabay from HK/JP, how much to expect for VAT, duty, charges?
 
Given the way it focuses, I assume an Olympus XA wouldn't be suitable? One lens (fixed) in a small light camera.
 
ChrisR said:
Meant to add, if buying something for, say £500 via fleabay from HK/JP, how much to expect for VAT, duty, charges?
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Import duty is 4.2% of the declared value, VAT is 20% and is calculated after the import duty has been added. Don't forget the carrier's fee for paying the taxes on your behalf, which varies from about £8 to £15.
 
StephenM said:
Given the way it focuses, I assume an Olympus XA wouldn't be suitable? One lens (fixed) in a small light camera.
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Thanks Stephen; I tried one but the RF patch is very hard to see, and it's a bit too "auto" for the job, I think.
Strappy said:
Import duty is 4.2% of the declared value, VAT is 20% and is calculated after the import duty has been added. Don't forget the carrier's fee for paying the taxes on your behalf, which varies from about £8 to £15.
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Thanks Dean.
 
Chris, I'm sure you know how much I miss the old Voigtlander R3a, a stunning camera and a joy to use and when coupled with the Nokton 40mm a neat and light package. They are expensive but they are definitely worth it.

I have held and shot with a Voigtlander R and although not as well made and sturdy feeling as an R3a they are still a quality camera. Some more info here at Stephen Gandy's site, lots of info but its a bit messy to navigate around.

https://www.cameraquest.com/voigrf.htm

Andy
 
Thanks Andy, I've been reading dozens of pages on that site, all day!
 
You might be right, ped, but no metering... I'm not keen on usnig a separate meter, although possibly for a OC/OL/OF/OY one should strip back to basics even there...
 
I'd get a Leica MR meter, they're pretty inexpensive and quite accurate. I used my M4P with a VCII meter which was excellent. Just think a Leica will stop you always wanting one and buying one eventually anyway - they are easier to step back from after an initial extravagance than they are to replace/imitate on a budget then end up trying one anyway :)
 
Try something like the exposure mat, save needing a meter most of the time. Having had plenty practice using a manual camera I'm pretty good at guessing exposure for simple conditions.
 
ped said:
Just think a Leica will stop you always wanting one and buying one eventually anyway
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Unfortunately, I fear this is correct. I looked at all the options and ended up with an M2 + 50mm Summicron. Unfortunately I have only put one successful roll through it, and the success was that there were images on it, the images themselves were worthy of the bin!
 
ped said:
Just think a Leica will stop you always wanting one and buying one eventually anyway ...
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This is what I was thinking when I bought my Canon P but now I wouldn't change it for another LTM camera. I think it's worth looking at the lenses you want to use and then making a decision on the body, that was a key decision point for me.

I'm using the P for my OC/OL/OF/3M and as it's not metered I'm carrying my Weston Master V. I take an incident reading from the sky then set the camera and adjust in full stops depending on the subject or how the light changes. No idea how well that's working as I haven't finished the first film yet but it feels right :)
 
For what its worth I enjoy using a Minolta incident meter
 
Strappy said:
Import duty is 4.2% of the declared value, VAT is 20% and is calculated after the import duty has been added. Don't forget the carrier's fee for paying the taxes on your behalf, which varies from about £8 to £15.
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I began to realise that meansaround £120 on top of the fleabay prices for CLEs from Japan, so I thought I'd look at European ones. Then I discovered that two EU sites were saying VAT would still be payable extra in the UK, but the Gov site I looked at said no extra duty or VAT should be payable. Very confused... unless the fleabayers are advertising VAT-free prices for non-EU export, and then adding local VAT on top for EU customers?

Maybe it varies depending on whether they are a business or private, too?
 
I've noticed a few eu sellers doing that, it's not legal in the UK but who knows in other parts of Europe. Even if they were still cheaper I'd still look else where.
 
I've never noticed that, I'd have thought most parcels from the EU would go straight through for delivery. Wonder if they make it clear on the customs declaration or put the onus on the customer to declare it.
 
No, its the seller pulling a fast one. You should pay VAT in the country of purchase (EU) but the seller is pretending they're a wholeseller like Macro who are (were?) allowed to display prices ex vat.
 
One Spain, one Poland, although I can't find the examples today. I suspect they had used ambiguous language on their pitch, eg "foreign taxes" when they really should have said non-EU taxes etc. Or, basically I may have misread it! Anyway, I was right confused, and now am not. Thanks guys!
 
I posted 2 parcels today, EU one didn't get a customs label at all.
 
If budget is £500, I would go for a Leica M2 - could probably get that and a lens for around that or a tad more. I had one, lovely camera and the iPhone app I used to meter was pretty accurate.
 
So, the way I tend to deal with GAS is to research the hell out of everything, watch many fleabay searches, change my mind, go round in circles... anything rather than pull the trigger. Actually it's not the spending that's the issue, it's explaining the box that gets delivered to the door! ;) Anyway, these are my current thoughts about a Leica-like (bearing in mind I haven't actually held any of these!):

a) Minolta CLE. Looks a nice camera, pretty affordable with what by all accounts is a good 40mm lens (M-Rokkor), good size, has Aperture Priority, filter thread same as my X10. LR44 battery. Against: the shutter release looks the pits, tiny, daft placement, no remote release thread. All electronic, so a fault makes a brick. Plus, no metered manual, and the option of metering in Aperture Priority and then switching to manual has got to be a PITA.

b) Leitz/Leica/Minolta CL. Similar size and weight to the CLE, usually comes with the Leica 40mm lens which seems to have a good reputation. Decent threaded shutter release. Full manual. Very varying prices, slightly dearer than CLE often (but ffordes has one with lens for £499 just now). Against: mercury battery, may or may not have a modification to meter properly with current replacements. Film loading by taking off the back.

c) Voigtlander Bessa R2M/R3M. Bigger. Folk on here really like them. Threaded shutter release, modern battery, modern film loading. Supposedly very good metering, but all mechanical camera otherwise. R3 often comes with the Voigtlander 40mm lens, also a good reputation. R2 lenses (35mm or 50mm) seem to be generally much more expensive, although there was a 250-Jahre R2M with a weird 50mm Heliar (special for that camera) for a bit over £500 recently (think seller withdrew it and relisted at €999?). But the Bessas are generally more expensive than the other two. A Bessa R2 (not A or M) would be another cheaper option, but again expensive lenses.

d)Leica M6... Looks pretty nice, though bigger and heavier (and quieter?). Forget the TTL version, but even so much more expensive, though there's one body only for a bit over £500 at the moment. Again, the 35/50 lenses are as much again.

cambsno said:
If budget is £500, I would go for a Leica M2 - could probably get that and a lens for around that or a tad more. I had one, lovely camera and the iPhone app I used to meter was pretty accurate.
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I don't have an iPhone, and the metering apps don't work on my Galaxy S3 Mini (a fact I didn't know until after I'd bought it :( ), and I really want metering in-camera. You could argue that an external meter would be appropriate for an OC/OL/OF exercise, but that's a crutch I'm not yet willing to give up.

So, whatcha think?
 
I know I bang on about it but the Voigtlanders pound for pound are stunning. The R3 with the 40mm is a perfect combination, light, small, great image quality and just a joy to use. Also, given your needs, I think the shutter position would work as it is prominent at the front of the top plate.
Do it, get one.... you know you want to......:D
 
Yes, Shane has been telling me about that upcoming listing in PM for a couple of weeks now! I've remembered the other disadvantage of the Leica Summicron 40 (I know that's not the lens on Shane's CL), the filter thread is 39mm (ok) but with a weird 0.75mm pitch. Why would they do that? IIRC the Nokton is a 43mm thread, normal 0.5mm pitch.
 
Someone mention my name :)


All the options you have looked at Chris are great cameras. Pros and Cons with each - per usual, but whichever way you go it won't be a 'bad' choice.



I took longer than i wanted in putting my CL up for sale, back and forwards deciding for ages. But, i want to streamline my cameras - plus I've just got a (out of the blue decision) MINT Fuji GA645 Pro medium format (Yay!) so needs must.


TTFN,
Shane :)
 
Contax G1 or G2?
Just to stir things up :)
 
I think they are too "auto" for the job I have in mind, Ken. The Konica Hexar RF (which that other Ken fellow reckons derive from the G2 bodies) might do the trick...
 
So as you may have read elsewhere, I have got a Leitz Minolta CL (one of the versions sold in Japan, I gather, of the Leica CL, both made by Minolta) with a 40mm Rokkor-M lens. I have not had much chance to use it, but I did take it out briefly yesterday afternoon. It was not ideal weather for checking out a new camera, as it was perishing cold with a bit of wind, and I only managed 4 exposures.

My first thoughts: it's small but surprisingly heavy. The lens is tiny, I was amazed at how small it is. I'm not sure how well I'll get along with it. The thing that bugged me most was that the meter doesn't appear to switch on until you wind on, which cocks the shutter, and there doesn't seem to be a shutter lock! It's TTL metering though, so presumably when I get a yellow filter to put on, I don't need exposure compensation. The film speed setting is quite tricky, and it's not easy to set fractional stops; I have no idea whether it's set at 160 320 or 250, or the half stop between the two! Film loading looked better than a "real Leica" but still more tricky than normal cameras. I did test the frameline parallax shift, which is quite cool!

The guy I got it from also had a Minolta CLE. It was nice to hold, and I had been completely misled by pictures, what I thought was a very small shutter button was actually an exposure lock (or maybe a shutter lock?). The shutter button is almost flush with a rounded wheel on the right. It was a bit more expensive, with the same lens. In the end I think it was the lack of metered manual that pushed me away; yes, you can put it on Auto then put those settings in on Manual but what a faff! He didn't have a Bessa to compare...
 
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OK I think I need a yellow filter for the CL, which I'll be using with Tri-X. It's a 40.5mm thread, which limits it a bit. Tiffen offer a range of yellows and an orange for £20-£30 plus, and Heliopan do yellow as well I think for similar money, but most of the usual suspects (Hoya etc) don't seem to have yellows in that thread. SRB do one for £12.50, and some Russian mob do one for $9.50, but both seem rather pale yellows. Any advice?
 
Depends what you want it for. I prefer the Wratten 12 ("minus blue") filter for general use, but your preferences may vary. I prefer using Wratten numbers as they are more precise than "pale yellow" etc.

Edit to add: For information; Wratten 12 is described as "deep yellow"
 
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At what point does one need to worry about speed loss from a yellow filter?
 
The point at which one stop less exposure matters to you, at a guess (that's the normal minimum drop for a light yellow filter).
 
StephenM said:
The point at which one stop less exposure matters to you, at a guess (that's the normal minimum drop for a light yellow filter).
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Really? I've never noticed a speed loss from my (only) yellow filter even doing comparative tests with a batch of filters and a control shot.
 
I'd go for the SRB.
BTW, for those interested in how it looks:
View attachment 29911
I've found the Leica Model CL manual, can't find one for the Minolta version. Page 19 for filters.
 
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Thanks Des. It says TTL metering generally allows for the filter, but you may need to increase exposure by one stop with orange and two stops with red. I think deep yellow is the one i"m thinking of, which should be well within the range of Tri-X, specially if I've managed to set it at 250.
 
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