Metering question.

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Phil Young said:
I wouldn't want to rely on a meter, I like to walk into a scene and know exactly what settings to use.
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What, you can guess it right every time??? You take a shot without using any instruments to check that your settings are correct? You can walk into a gloomy room from a sunlit street and immediately come up with an accurate exposure setting?

Havta say that in as fair few years as a pro I have never come across such skill as that!
 
jon ryan said:
What, you can guess it right every time??? You take a shot without using any instruments to check that your settings are correct? You can walk into a gloomy room from a sunlit street and immediately come up with an accurate exposure setting?

Havta say that in as fair few years as a pro I have never come across such skill as that!
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Most times, I don't think it's that hard if you've never relied on instruments. Just practice of different lighting.

It doesn't make me any better than anyone else, it's just what I've learnt from experience.

It's like anything done enough, it becomes a habit and I've gotten into the habit of knowing my exposures, I don't think it's that uncommon at all.

Actually, I find it strange if photographers can't...
 
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Phil Young said:
No problem, let me answer that.

The question was to prove a point to my brother that metering does not compensate during manual shooting.
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Hate to throw a spanner in the works but it will compensate if you're using manual exposure mode but auto iso. In this scenario your metering mode and any exposure compensation will effect your final exposure. (at least on Nikon anyway)
 
jon ryan said:
What, you can guess it right every time??? You take a shot without using any instruments to check that your settings are correct? You can walk into a gloomy room from a sunlit street and immediately come up with an accurate exposure setting?

Havta say that in as fair few years as a pro I have never come across such skill as that!
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Phil Young said:
Most times, I don't think it's that hard if you've never relied on instruments. Just practice of different lighting.

It doesn't make me any better than anyone else, it's just what I've learnt from experience.

It's like anything done enough, it becomes a habit and I've gotten into the habit of knowing my exposures, I don't think it's that uncommon at all.

Actually, I find it strange if photographers can't...
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Well, that makes you a better photographer than me. And I've been making a pretty good living at it for years! No idea how many thousands of pictures I've had published from hundreds upon hundreds of varied lighting situations...but I still can't do what you can. Either you've got it or you haven't, I suppose.

Where can we see your published work? Love to see some.
 
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gad-westy said:
Hate to throw a spanner in the works but it will compensate if you're using manual exposure mode but auto iso. In this scenario your metering mode and any exposure compensation will effect your final exposure. (at least on Nikon anyway)
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Yes that's true...but I don't consider this full manual, still semi auto but you are correct.
 
jon ryan said:
Well, that makes you a better photographer than me. And I've been making a pretty good living at it for years! No idea how many thousands of pictures I've had published from hundreds upon hundreds of varied lighting situations...but I still can't do what you can. Either you've got it or you haven't, I suppose.

Where can I see some of your published work? Love to see some.
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There's no need to get funny about it...if you prefer to use metering and expose that way then that's your business. I don't see why you're getting bitchy about it???

If you don't know your scene and work of an exposure meter, fine. If you doubt that the human eye can do what your meter does, that's fine too...personally I'd prefer it if you didn't get funny with me but if you do that's your business and fine too!

Bottom line is this: you use a meter, I judge it. I'm not right, you're not right - it's preference and I don't see anything worth arguing about.
 
Phil Young said:
Actually, I find it strange if photographers can't...
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That's because working photographers usually don't have the time to faff about and prove how cool they are to themselves by visually assessing the EV. They need to get the exposure right each time (and yes there will be errors as hinted at above).

If you are relaxed in the studio or in a static position it's all fine, but if conditions are fluid (sport, news, weddings and a plethora of other subject areas) then you are potentially cutting your own throat.

Considering you still don't seem to know the difference between metering, exposure, EV and EC forgive my more than slight scepticism.

If you are about to start charging people for photography you might want to consider a more workable approach.
 
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jon ryan said:
Well, that makes you a better photographer than me. And I've been making a pretty good living at it for years! No idea how many thousands of pictures I've had published from hundreds upon hundreds of varied lighting situations...but I still can't do what you can. Either you've got it or you haven't, I suppose.

Where can we see your published work? Love to see some.
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Phil Young said:
There's no need to get funny about it...if you prefer to use metering and expose that way then that's your business. I don't see why you're getting bitchy about it???

If you don't know your scene and work of an exposure meter, fine. If you doubt that the human eye can do what your meter does, that's fine too...personally I'd prefer it if you didn't get funny with me but if you do that's your business and fine too!

Bottom line is this: you use a meter, I judge it. I'm not right, you're not right - it's preference and I don't see anything worth arguing about.
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Why do you say I'm getting bitchy? It's a genuine question. You appear to have some sort of gift along the lines of the 'perfect pitch' that some musicians have. You have the ability to accurately judge light. I don't have this ability, even after years working as a full time photographer. And I have never seen this ability in any of my students. I think it's a fabulous skill, and am simply asking where some of the results can be seen.What's wrong with asking that?
 
Ok.

This thread is getting a bit out of hand now (as always).

TP (or members of) annoys me these days in that threads always gets out of hand and into arguments.

There are a lot of people that think they are better than others here (which is fine to think so) and making their voice heard.

So I don't use spot metering...SO WHAT?!

What business is it of anyone else's how I get my exposure?

If anyone wants to doubt my light reading ability that's absolutely fine and I have no problem with that, i'm frustrated that certain members seem to have got up with a big chest and a bad attitude about the way I take my photos.

I really don't see why you feel the need to say anything negative towards me (aimed at anyone with a bad attitude here).

I don't see anything else that has to be said unless some apologies are directed towards me when people realise that it is MY business how I expose my shots and none of anyone else's.

Jon - and anyone interested in penis measuring go visit my Facebook page "Phil young photography" if you like, although i'm not sure what you think you're looking for!?
 
DemiLion said:
Considering you still don't seem to know the difference between metering, exposure, EV and EC forgive my more than slight scepticism.
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Stop being a weirdo of course I know the difference - they're all just ways to get the desired exposure.

Considering you didn't read my post when I said in certain situations I'll be in A mode blah blah blah and that you decided I needed to be taught on exposure, forgive my thoughts of you being a rude person that thinks he's above others and likes to be heard.
 
Phil Young said:
So I don't use spot metering...SO WHAT?!
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Phil,

just read this thread and thought I'd try and clarify one point which is unclear to me, and may be to others on how you are getting the exposure for a shot.

do you look at a scene and think, 'This will need a 1/2 stop negative compensation' (or equivalent adjustment to aperture / shutter in full manual),
or think 'This will need f/3.2, 1/250, ISO 200' ?

The former is, I believe, quite usual for photographers, and something that becomes more accurate with experience.
The latter is what some of the posts are saying would be exceptional'.
 
Faldrax said:
Phil,

just read this thread and thought I'd try and clarify one point which is unclear to me, and may be to others on how you are getting the exposure for a shot.

do you look at a scene and think, 'This will need a 1/2 stop negative compensation' (or equivalent adjustment to aperture / shutter in full manual),
or think 'This will need f/3.2, 1/250, ISO 200' ?

The former is, I believe, quite usual for photographers, and something that becomes more accurate with experience.
The latter is what some of the posts are saying would be exceptional'.
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Good question.

so I just took a shot and my thoughts were as follows: I want 1/200th, f8 and to get that I will be at ISO 100.

Took me about 5 seconds to think about it then I exposed correctly.

If it came out under or over I would look and compensate by however much.
 
Phil Young said:
Ok.

This thread is getting a bit out of hand now (as always).

TP (or members of) annoys me these days in that threads always gets out of hand and into arguments.

There are a lot of people that think they are better than others here (which is fine to think so) and making their voice heard.

So I don't use spot metering...SO WHAT?!

What business is it of anyone else's how I get my exposure?

If anyone wants to doubt my light reading ability that's absolutely fine and I have no problem with that, i'm frustrated that certain members seem to have got up with a big chest and a bad attitude about the way I take my photos.

I really don't see why you feel the need to say anything negative towards me (aimed at anyone with a bad attitude here).

I don't see anything else that has to be said unless some apologies are directed towards me when people realise that it is MY business how I expose my shots and none of anyone else's.

Jon - and anyone interested in penis measuring go visit my Facebook page "Phil young photography" if you like, although i'm not sure what you think you're looking for!?
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OK, calm down. You are coming out with some theories on photography in general and exposure in particular that I am unfamiliar with. All I have asked is for some examples of your work demonstrating the techniques you employ. As someone who makes his living as a press and commercial photographer, and as a lecturer in photography, I am always looking to learn something new. You appear to have a most unusual talent, but I am failing to understand how it works.

How about if we go back to the scenario I suggested above: You walk into a dark venue from a bright street. Your remit is to show the interior. My first move would be to take a series of light readings using the camera meter. You say you do not use light meters. So, how would you determine the settings for your camera? From what I gather, you are able to judge the light by eye and set your camera for a correct exposure. Is this what you would do?
 
jon ryan said:
OK, calm down. You are coming out with some theories on photography in general and exposure in particular that I am unfamiliar with. All I have asked is for some examples of your work demonstrating the techniques you employ. As someone who makes his living as a press and commercial photographer, and as a lecturer in photography, I am always looking to learn something new. You appear to have a most unusual talent, but I am failing to understand how it works.

How about if we go back to the scenario I suggested above: You walk into a dark venue from a bright street. Your remit is to show the interior. My first move would be to take a series of light readings using the camera meter. You say you do not use light meters. So, how would you determine the settings for your camera? From what I gather, you are able to judge the light by eye and set your camera for a correct exposure. Is this what you would do?
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I'm happy to start again.

My first response would be to reduce the aperture to x amount, then either increase ISO or reduce shutter speed (depending on what i'm shooting) by x amount.
 
Phil Young said:
Yes that's true...but I don't consider this full manual, still semi auto but you are correct.
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Yes. I only mention it as it would still be referred to as manual exposure mode (in terms of the mode you are using on the camera) so thought it best to mention.
 
Phil Young said:
I'm happy to start again.

My first response would be to reduce the aperture to x amount, then either increase ISO or reduce shutter speed (depending on what i'm shooting) by x amount.
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OK, so what mode is your camera in at this stage? (I'd be in manual - I usually am), and where are your starting points for aperture, shutter & ISO?
 
Phil Young said:
Good question.

so I just took a shot and my thoughts were as follows: I want 1/200th, f8 and to get that I will be at ISO 100.

Took me about 5 seconds to think about it then I exposed correctly.

If it came out under or over I would look and compensate by however much.
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Ok, so (if I understand correctly), you are basically using a more advanced from of the old 'Sunny 16' rule of exposure - you (through experience), know that certain lighting conditions call for certain settings, then mentally adjusting the balance of Aperture, Shutter & ISO to achieve that - this adjustment being the same as everyone else who uses a meter then decides 'but I want f/4 not f/8, so I'll make it 1/100 not 1/200'.

Having done that, and taken a shot, you then review the shot and adjust your initial estimate based on how it has come out (much as anyone else would do).

Sounds fine to me - personally, I use the camera meter to get the first estimate (I can look at a situation and have some idea of the light, but my camera is more reliable than I am at it!), but as with most things photographic, the important thing is that you get the results you want, and are happy with what you achieve.
 
jon ryan said:
OK, so what mode is your camera in at this stage? (I'd be in manual - I usually am), and where are your starting points for aperture, shutter & ISO?
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Manual & wherever I left off...the way I measure light I don't need to "start" anywhere I just set and expose...if that makes sense...?
 
Faldrax said:
Ok, so (if I understand correctly), you are basically using a more advanced from of the old 'Sunny 16' rule of exposure - you (through experience), know that certain lighting conditions call for certain settings, then mentally adjusting the balance of Aperture, Shutter & ISO to achieve that - this adjustment being the same as everyone else who uses a meter then decides 'but I want f/4 not f/8, so I'll make it 1/100 not 1/200'.

Having done that, and taken a shot, you then review the shot and adjust your initial estimate based on how it has come out (much as anyone else would do).

Sounds fine to me - personally, I use the camera meter to get the first estimate (I can look at a situation and have some idea of the light, but my camera is more reliable than I am at it!), but as with most things photographic, the important thing is that you get the results you want, and are happy with what you achieve.
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I can't understand the bemusement either...

I don't know about sunny 16's or older tactics but yes, experience without meters has just taught me what I need in any available light situation...
 
Phil Young said:
Manual & wherever I left off...the way I measure light I don't need to "start" anywhere I just set and expose...if that makes sense...?
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What I'm curious about is the way you measure light. Me, I tend to use the meter. In this imagined scenario, the last shot -taken in the assumed bright light - may have been 1/2000th @ f/2.8, 100 ISO on a 200mm lens. When I move into the gloom, I can make certain decisions based on experience: I perhaps need more dof, less focal length, much slower shutter, far more ISO. But I'm not going to guess the correct values. I use the tools available: meter, histogram, rear screen. I could put the camera in AV and set for the dof I think will work, then set shutter and ISO from that starting point to get the same result. But in either case I am using the camera telemetry to give me an accurate EV. I'm not making guesses.
 
Hi Phil.as you say if you dont want to use metering its up to you fair play.

But a lot of pro could not work this way.

Anyway as long as it work for you :)
 
Faldrax said:
Ok, so (if I understand correctly), you are basically using a more advanced from of the old 'Sunny 16' rule of exposure - you (through experience), know that certain lighting conditions call for certain settings, then mentally adjusting the balance of Aperture, Shutter & ISO to achieve that - this adjustment being the same as everyone else who uses a meter then decides 'but I want f/4 not f/8, so I'll make it 1/100 not 1/200'.

Having done that, and taken a shot, you then review the shot and adjust your initial estimate based on how it has come out (much as anyone else would do).

Sounds fine to me - personally, I use the camera meter to get the first estimate (I can look at a situation and have some idea of the light, but my camera is more reliable than I am at it!), but as with most things photographic, the important thing is that you get the results you want, and are happy with what you achieve.
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Exactly. He guesses the exposure approximately by eye and then makes adjustments off the LCD/histogram/blinkies.

I do that a lot too, and it's a good method. But it's effectively metering under a different name.
 
simonblue said:
Hi Phil.as you say if you dont want to use metering its up to you fair play.

But a lot of pro could not work this way.

Anyway as long as it work for you :)
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Neither could I. For weddings christenings or anything where I need to be quicker it just stays on A and then I'd just worry about composition.

Even 5 seconds of quick calculating in my head is too long for certain situations.

Out and about or location shoots I'm usually in the mode discussed above.
 
HoppyUK said:
Exactly. He guesses the exposure approximately by eye and then makes adjustments off the LCD/histogram/blinkies.

I do that a lot too, and it's a good method. But it's effectively metering under a different name.
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Exactly! It's "human eye metering" lol.

I think it's just a case of how good is your meter and would you rely on it, my meter is my eye and I do rely on it.

I just think technology can make me lazy and hence why when I got into photography I was always so interested in the technical aspect of it, I just made a job of it to learn how to measure the light against my subject.

It's not a special skill or a new theory...it's just a different method :)
 
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Phil Young said:
I like to think if it the same as a chef that's given a certain weight of beef and knowing what time to cook it without a meet thermometer.
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But someone would have measure the weight of the meat in the first place?

;)
 
HoppyUK said:
Exactly. He guesses the exposure approximately by eye and then makes adjustments off the LCD/histogram/blinkies.

I do that a lot too, and it's a good method. But it's effectively metering under a different name.
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Phil Young said:
Exactly! It's "human eye metering" lol.

I think it's just a case of how good is your meter and would you rely on it, my meter is my eye and I do rely on it.

I just think technology can make me lazy and hence why when I got into photography I was always so interested in the technical aspect of it, I just made a job of it to learn how to measure the light against my subject.

It's not a special skill or a new theory...it's just a different method :)
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Well except for the lcd, blinkies and histogram :D

I just can't see how you won't use the camera meter as an initial guide, then fine tune using the histogram/blinkies.

My brain hurts when it has to start guessing stuff in this digital age :lol:
 
AndyB1976 said:
Well except for the lcd, blinkies and histogram :D

I just can't see how you won't use the camera meter as an initial guide, then fine tune using the histogram/blinkies.

My brain hurts when it has to start guessing stuff in this digital age :lol:
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Imagine what it was like when you learnt to drive. At first you are thinking and calculating and remembering all the things which get to where you are now - intuitive at all those things.

Now I just get in my car and drive so to speak. I walk into am area and know what my settings are without the need for instruments. 9/10 times I'm right and for the times i'm not, I'll look at the image and adjust as necessary.

I don't think it is or should be difficult for anyone, the reason others wouldn't be able to is because their relationship with meters etc.

I'd say to all interested just have a go for a month, get out of the auto gearbox and into manual :)
 
Phil Young said:
For weddings christenings or anything where I need to be quicker it just stays on A and then I'd just worry about composition.

Even 5 seconds of quick calculating in my head is too long for certain situations.
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And what if the light drops? How do you know if your shutter has fallen below a safe level to hand-hold without checking the meter? Have you done many weddings?
 
jon ryan said:
And what if the light drops? How do you know if your shutter has fallen below a safe level to hand-hold without checking the meter? Have you done many weddings?
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No I haven't i'm saying in that situation. I am breaking away from my normal portraiture and getting into weddings now (first one next month). But I don't anticipate working in manual then anyway.

If the light drops then my settings drop / iso rises just like any meter would work...?
 
Phil Young said:
Neither could I. For weddings christenings or anything where I need to be quicker it just stays on A and then I'd just worry about composition.

Even 5 seconds of quick calculating in my head is too long for certain situations.

Out and about or location shoots I'm usually in the mode discussed above.
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jon ryan said:
And what if the light drops? How do you know if your shutter has fallen below a safe level to hand-hold without checking the meter? Have you done many weddings?
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Phil Young said:
No I haven't i'm saying in that situation. I am breaking away from my normal portraiture and getting into weddings now (first one next month).
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From your choice of tense I assumed you had some experience in what you are talking about. So you're happy for dof to remain the same throughout?


But I don't anticipate working in manual then anyway.

If the light drops then my settings drop / iso rises just like any meter would work...?
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Ah! So you intend to work in auto. For a wedding. Well, good luck with that...
 
Phil Young said:
Imagine what it was like when you learnt to drive. At first you are thinking and calculating and remembering all the things which get to where you are now - intuitive at all those things.

Now I just get in my car and drive so to speak. I walk into am area and know what my settings are without the need for instruments. 9/10 times I'm right and for the times i'm not, I'll look at the image and adjust as necessary.

I don't think it is or should be difficult for anyone, the reason others wouldn't be able to is because their relationship with meters etc.

I'd say to all interested just have a go for a month, get out of the auto gearbox and into manual :)
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Fair play to you fella...If its working and making life easier then well done.:thumbs:

Using you car analogy, maybe utilising the meter and letting the camera do the work is like employing a chauffeur to do the driving whilst you worry about the other stuff :D
 
Phil Young said:
Right...

I thought this would be a simple yes or no answer I just wanted to show my brother (and know myself) for definite "does metering matter in manual mode"...can't get a answer though.

I'll have to go the long way and take shots of a high DR scene and test.

I'm pretty sure the shots won't look different though.
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The simple answer is no! Lets just keep things simple..no it doesnt. If you want to meter then use AV or TV. There you go, my first post
 
jon ryan said:
So you're happy for dof to remain the same throughout?
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Did I say that???

I thought I said I would lower whatever was required to make the scene exposed. My first priority is IQ, if the aperture has to drop fine, if i'm using a lens that is soft wide open then the iso is coming up. If I have to then the shutter speed comes down. It totally depends on what I need to do to get the best image...it's not rocket science I don't think?!

jon ryan said:
Ah! So you intend to work in auto. For a wedding. Well, good luck with that...
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In aperture priority...yes.

Again totally depends on the scene and my need for speed but I will utilise whatever tools I require at the time to get the shots.

If it means being lazy and relying on the camera to expose what I tell it to then I'll do that...I'd hate to take money and miss shots.

I'm sure I'll post some shots afterwards and you can comment as you see fit.
 
OK, to sum up: You're going to shoot your first ever wedding using Aperture Priority and some sort of auto ISO. You will be able to adjust your dof as required, and will be happy for the shutter speed to drop (or presumably increase) at will. You are confident that you can do all of this without reference to any camera telemetry, as you regard metering to be either inaccurate or un-necessary and are wholly confident in your ability to accurately judge light-levels by eye, even during a wedding, which is one of the fastest moving and unpredictable photography challenges in the book.

A couple of other points occur:

Does your ability to judge light extent to the shots that will need flash?

Will you be using your back-up camera with a different lens, (ie for wide and close shots that arrive close together) or do you plan to swap lenses as required?
 
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