Metering question.

[Phil Young]

Guys,

This maybe a silly question but here goes:

I'm sure that metering isn't applied on FULL MANUAL but my brother is under the impression it is...

Am I wrong or what?

As far as I knew, metering will adjust the exposure of the shot based on what you tell it to but on full manual you are over-riding everything...no?

 

[Russ77]

If you're on full manual the meter will show you what it thinks the exposure will be with the current settings, whether the camera has got it right is another matter.......

 

[Phil Young]

If you're on full manual the meter will show you what it thinks the exposure will be with the current settings, whether the camera has got it right is another matter.......

Yes, but does the camera compensate for this?? I am sure the camera will only compensate in p/a/s modes...?

 

[TCR4x4]

What do you mean by compensate? The camera never compensates, you do.
If you took a shot in manual, and made sure the exposure needle was in the centre,then you are following the camera's meter as to what it thinks correct. This is no different than shooting in Tv or AV or P.

Manual control is when the camera says one thing, but you know this to be incorrect and adjust as needed.

 

[Phil Young]

Ok.

Let me put it a different way.

I shoot in manual mode, I shoot two photos, both are of a white background and dark skin subject, one shot in spot the other evaluative, should they look the same or different?

 

[u8myufo]

Ok.

Let me put it a different way.

I shoot in manual mode, I shoot two photos, both are of a white background and dark skin subject, one shot in spot the other evaluative, should they look the same or different?

Yeh. It will end up Black and White If you are struggling with the answer you might need to read up on understanding exposure. Spot metering is only really good for certian situations. To answer your question without seeing first hand how much and what type of light is hitting your subject and BG it is impossible to answer to a certain degree.Imo sometimes it can be different and other times it can produce a near identical shot exposure wise.

 

[Phil Young]

Right...

I thought this would be a simple yes or no answer I just wanted to show my brother (and know myself) for definite "does metering matter in manual mode"...can't get a answer though.

I'll have to go the long way and take shots of a high DR scene and test.

I'm pretty sure the shots won't look different though.

 

[Phil V]

Ok.

Let me put it a different way.

I shoot in manual mode, I shoot two photos, both are of a white background and dark skin subject, one shot in spot the other evaluative, should they look the same or different?

It depends where you're spot metering from, whether you're compensating for the reflectance of the metered object.... etc. etc.

But in simple terms different metering patterns may give you different readings depending on the scene in front of you. Otherwise what's the point in having different metering patterns - some being more suitable to some situations than others, or for different techniques.

But your experiment should be easy enough to do.

The meter shows up in your viewfinder - in M or semi auto modes - you can chose what to do with this information. The semi auto modes do not take any control from the user - they just offer help - that you can chose to accept, override or compensate out of. In the same way Manual doesn't mean that you're in control - if all you're going to do is accept the meter's recommendation.

 

[Phil Young]

It depends where you're spot metering from, whether you're compensating for the reflectance of the metered object.... etc. etc.

But in simple terms different metering patterns may give you different readings depending on the scene in front of you. Otherwise what's the point in having different metering patterns - some being more suitable to some situations than others, or for different techniques.

But your experiment should be easy enough to do.

The meter shows up in your viewfinder - in M or semi auto modes - you can chose what to do with this information. The semi auto modes do not take any control from the user - they just offer help - that you can chose to accept, override or compensate out of. In the same way Manual doesn't mean that you're in control - if all you're going to do is accept the meter's recommendation.

So this is a semi answer.

Let me just clarify:

I know the camera will tell me what's going on. But will it adjust because of it in manual mode? I don't think so.

I know that if I backlit something and wanted my subject exposed properly I'd spot meter in A/P/S modes, or I would just allow more light in myself (aperture/shutter/iso) in M mode.

I don't know how to be more clear...

If I meter the above scene in A and use evaluative metering then my subject will be underexposed, if I used spot it would be exposed (assuming I told the camera to do that by pointing my AF at it) but my brother is saying the camera acts the same in M mode and I say no it doesn't...

 

[simon ess]

If I'm understanding your question correctly, then no, the camera will not adjust.

If, for example, you were to manually expose for a subject in bright light then take that subject into dim light without changing the settings, your subject will be underexposed.

In manual you adjust settings to suit the light conditions. The camera does nothing.

Does that help?

 

[Phil Young]

If I'm understanding your question correctly, then no, the camera will not adjust.

If, for example, you were to manually expose for a subject in bright light then take that subject into dim light without changing the settings, your subject will be underexposed.

In manual you adjust settings to suit the light conditions. The camera does nothing.

Does that help?

Thanks, that's the short answer I wanted lol.

Sorry to all those above, I might not have made myself clear - sounded simple in my head but maybe that's because I knew what was going on.

 

[Phil V]

So this is a semi answer.

Let me just clarify:

I know the camera will tell me what's going on. But will it adjust because of it in manual mode? I don't think so.

I know that if I backlit something and wanted my subject exposed properly I'd spot meter in A/P/S modes, or I would just allow more light in myself (aperture/shutter/iso) in M mode.

I don't know how to be more clear...

If I meter the above scene in A and use evaluative metering then my subject will be underexposed, if I used spot it would be exposed (assuming I told the camera to do that by pointing my AF at it) but my brother is saying the camera acts the same in M mode and I say no it doesn't...

Lets ignore any over-rides for now (assume correct meter reading) and pretend we're at ISO 100 and you want an aperture of f4

If you're in AV with your backlit subject and your (spot) reading is from the subjects face - the camera will set your shutter speed - lets say 1/500.

Now if you're in Manual - spot meter off the face, You will adjust the shutter speed to 1/500 and you'll have exactly the same shot.

In Manual the meter just meters the scene - if you just follow it's lead - all you're doing is what the camera would have done in a semi auto mode.

 

[Phil Young]

Lets ignore any over-rides for now (assume correct meter reading) and pretend we're at ISO 100 and you want an aperture of f4

If you're in AV with your backlit subject and your (spot) reading is from the subjects face - the camera will set your shutter speed - lets say 1/500.

Now if you're in Manual - spot meter off the face, You will adjust the shutter speed to 1/500 and you'll have exactly the same shot.

In Manual the meter just meters the scene - if you just follow it's lead - all you're doing is what the camera would have done in a semi auto mode.

Thanks for further clarification Phil.

 

[Phil Young]

For the benefit of the thread:

Tested a few scenes when I got home.

Aperture priority EVALUATIVE metering:

Aperture priority SPOT metering:

Manual mode EVALUATIVE metering:

Manual mode SPOT metering:

So we can conclude (as expected) that meting will only compensate in semi auto and auto modes and has no effect other than use as a guide in manual mode.

Thanks again.

 

[Bambi72]

sounded simple in my head but maybe that's because I knew what was going on.

sound like Einstein trying to explain relativity for the first time

 

[Russ77]

sound like Einstein trying to explain relativity for the first time

I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Phil Young]

sound like Einstein trying to explain relativity for the first time

Lol I think the mistake was...I maybe came across as someone that didn't know about metering, but didn't want to sound like that and in my attempt not to, I was unsuccessful lol

 

[Phil Young]

Guys,

This maybe a silly question but here goes:

I'm sure that metering isn't applied on FULL MANUAL but my brother is under the impression it is...

Am I wrong or what?

As far as I knew, metering will adjust the exposure of the shot based on what you tell it to but on full manual you are over-riding everything...no?

Ok I give in, my first attempt at asking sounded confusing and amateurish

 

[rustinbox]

For the benefit of the thread:

Tested a few scenes when I got home.

Aperture priority EVALUATIVE metering:

Aperture priority SPOT metering:

Manual mode EVALUATIVE metering:

Manual mode SPOT metering:

So we can conclude (as expected) that meting will only compensate in semi auto and auto modes and has no effect other than use as a guide in manual mode.

Thanks again.

Interesting. I always thought meter would give different reading depending on the mode. Even if it is manual. While in manual, did you actually follow the meter? So it is always in the middle?

 

[simonblue]

Right.

If you shoot in aperture/p mode,you select the the aperture you want,and the cameras select a shutter speed.

If you shoot in shutter/p mode,you select the shutter speed you want,and the camera select a aperture.

In both cases the metering is the same.

In manual mode,you select both the shutter speed & the aperture,and adjust one or the other till you get the correct exposure for the light,from the metering.

 

[Phil Young]

Right.

If you shoot in aperture/p mode,you select the the aperture you want,and the cameras select a shutter speed.

If you shoot in shutter/p mode,you select the shutter speed you want,and the camera select a aperture.

In both cases the metering is the same.

In manual mode,you select both the shutter speed & the aperture,and adjust one or the other till you get the correct exposure for the light,from the metering.

Yep but in my opinion...if you're shooting manual all the time, you shouldn't need a meter anyway.

 

[Phil Young]

Interesting. I always thought meter would give different reading depending on the mode. Even if it is manual. While in manual, did you actually follow the meter? So it is always in the middle?

No, in manual you have total control. The only thing the camera will do if told is to over/under compensate.

 

[DemiLion]

Yep but in my opinion...if you're shooting manual all the time, you shouldn't need a meter anyway.

So how are you going to read the light unless you are experienced enough to do it by sight?

In most cases you'll need a meter, whether it's the in camera one or a separate unit.

I suspect that you're mixing up metering, which is assessing the EV (Exposure Value) and setting the exposure for the frame. They're two different things!

 

[jon ryan]

Have a read of this and don't worry too much about it. Metering is a Dark Art. Nothing but practice can teach you to get it right. And you'll still get it wrong from time to time, even years down the line. (Or is that just me...)

 

[DemiLion]

Have a read of this and don't worry too much about it. Metering is a Dark Art. Nothing but practice can teach you to get it right. And you'll still get it wrong from time to time, even years down the line. (Or is that just me...)

Nope!

 

[jon ryan]

Yep but in my opinion...if you're shooting manual all the time, you shouldn't need a meter anyway.

No, not with you on that one. If you don't use the meter when you are in manual, how do you decide which settings to use? I use mostly manual and always take a meter reading.

 

[jon ryan]

Have a read of this and don't worry too much about it. Metering is a Dark Art. Nothing but practice can teach you to get it right. And you'll still get it wrong from time to time, even years down the line. (Or is that just me...)

Nope!

That's a relief!

 

[sep9001]

Sorry so to get this clear. If I am using manual mode I do not need to worry about choosing the metering mode. I only have to choose the metering mode if I am shooting in AV or TV mode.

Thanks

 

[Russ77]

Sorry so to get this clear. If I am using manual mode I do not need to worry about choosing the metering mode. I only have to choose the metering mode if I am shooting in AV or TV mode.

Thanks

No........ The metering mode dictates which part of the scene the camera is metering for but in manual mode the scene will be exposed the same, no matter what metering mode if you use the same settings, all that may change is the EV the meter shows.

In all other modes, the metering mode will have a bearing on the exposure of the image.

 

[sep9001]

Thanks Russ. I learn something new every day.

 

[Phil Young]

No, not with you on that one. If you don't use the meter when you are in manual, how do you decide which settings to use? I use mostly manual and always take a meter reading.

For me it's experience. Yes sometimes I get my exposures off by a third it 2 but mostly it's correct...

I wouldn't want to rely on a meter, I like to walk into a scene and know exactly what settings to use.

I like to think if it the same as a chef that's given a certain weight of beef and knowing what time to cook it without a meet thermometer.

But of course I understand if one is not confident with that then a meter should be used.

 

[rustinbox]

No........ The metering mode dictates which part of the scene the camera is metering for but in manual mode the scene will be exposed the same, no matter what metering mode if you use the same settings, all that may change is the EV the meter shows.

In all other modes, the metering mode will have a bearing on the exposure of the image.

This is exactly what I was saying. Right, in manual mode it is up to you to follow the meter or not. But depending on the selected mode it will show a bit different data. Example: in manual mode I have aperture at 1.4 and shutter at 100. If I put spot metering it may show me that picture is under exposed -2. If I choose evaluated mode it may show that it is overexposed 1 stop. To take this into account or not it is my decision. But meter reading will be different even under manual.

 

[Russ77]

Thanks Russ. I learn something new every day.

To give you an example, if I take a shot of the moon and use Evaluated metering, I adjust settings so the meter so the EV is 0 but the image is WAY over exposed because most of the scene is dark and the camera doesn't actually know what you're trying to achieve.

Switch to spot metering and you get a more realistic reading as the camera actually trying to expose for the moon itself, you then need to adjust the settings you use.

 

[simonblue]

Yep but in my opinion...if you're shooting manual all the time, you shouldn't need a meter anyway.

Say your useing manual,you still need to meter, how are you going to get the exposure right,you can try guessing but light changes all the time.

Even in the days before build in metering,most used a handheld meter

 

[Phil Young]

Say your useing manual,you still need to meter, how are you going to get the exposure right,you can try guessing but light changes all the time.

Even in the days before build in metering,most used a handheld meter

By reading the light and adjusting the settings accordingly.

Some will disagree with me, others may prefer to practice with the light without using meters until they know what changes to make and how much.

I use mode when I need to be quick but when I do use EV compensation rather than metering.

For me, metering takes away my calculations and I feel like i'm relying on technology so spent a lot of time learning not to

 

[simon ess]

Phil - I'm not getting this mate - sorry. Maybe we're just not on the same wavelength and I'm missing something.

You started by asking a basic question about metering, but now say you're experienced enough to not need a meter at all.

I use mode when I need to be quick but when I do use EV compensation rather than metering.

Sorry again, but that doesn't make sense to me. If you're using A or S mode, then EV is the way to adjust. I don't know what you mean by saying you don't use metering.

I'm very confused.

 

[simonblue]

By reading the light and adjusting the settings accordingly.

Some will disagree with me, others may prefer to practice with the light without using meters until they know what changes to make and how much.

I use mode when I need to be quick but when I do use EV compensation rather than metering.

For me, metering takes away my calculations and I feel like i'm relying on technology so spent a lot of time learning not to

Good luck then Phil,technology doesnt see the photo you do.

Metering is just a part of it,the same way as apertures shutter speeds etc.

 

[Phil Young]

Phil - I'm not getting this mate - sorry. Maybe we're just not on the same wavelength and I'm missing something.

You started by asking a basic question about metering, but now say you're experienced enough to not need a meter at all.

Sorry again, but that doesn't make sense to me. If you're using A or S mode, then EV is the way to adjust. I don't know what you mean by saying you don't use metering.

I'm very confused.

No problem, let me answer that.

The question was to prove a point to my brother that metering does not compensate during manual shooting.

I don't think it's that hard to understand...I don't like using the metering because I prefer to get the exposure right myself, with my experience and knowledge of lighting...I don't see why it's a negative thing or why others can't understand it - if I get the exposure right then I feel better about my subject knowledge, just like any other job (or part of a job).

Anyone is free to disagree with me and use what ever methods they prefer to get their exposure right, I just prefer to use my brain rather than a camera brain...similar to maths teachers preferring to work out a sum in their head rather than use a calculator - both give correct answers but working it out gives a better sense of achievement.

For all those that prefer a different method, that's your privilege...but my preferred choice is my own, there's no right or wrong way here guys

 

[Phil Young]

Good luck then Phil,technology doesnt see the photo you do.

Metering is just a part of it,the same way as apertures shutter speeds etc.

Actually metering should be thought if as an exposure assistant and you can work absolutely fine without it...your choice whether you use an assistant or not

 

[Phil Young]

I don't know what you mean by saying you don't use metering.

I'm very confused.

I should have put that in a better way.

I just leave my metering on evaluative and adjust the EV comp as necessary.

If I need more than 2 stops lg compensation 9/10 times i'm on manual anyway and my last resort is to change to spot and let the camera sort it out the "calculation" (for lack of a better word) for me.

Like I said, there's no right and wrong way to getting the exposure, it's just what I prefer.