Manual v. Automatic

Badger UK said:
Unless the aim is some sort of whacky effect, why would anyone want to use the manual setting on their camera these days?
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my camera cannot read my mind (yet) so they do not know what characteristic of the photo (exposure) is most important to me
Does my camera know weather (for example ) i want motion blur or not - or do i want limited depth of field?
Using aperture priority and shutter priority auto would seem (to the layman at least) to solve the problem but in reality it does not. A good example of this is some of the photos i took today - i was following some bmx cyclists as they did a jump looking into the light with bright sun behind them - the shutter priority auto mode made mess of the exposure, so i changed to manual - with a light reading off some grass added about a stop more as i new the riders faces were in shadow due to their helmets - job done. consistent shots exposed how i wanted them - the faces of the riders correctly exposed...

as for arty effect - you can do all the "arty effects in auto modes"

I use manual, shutter priory auto, and aperture priority auto and choose what ever is best for the job at the time. i have yet to find a time when p was best and none of my cameras have the green square !!!:bat:
 
pxl8 said:
But that's the whole point. In manual once you've got your settings you don't need to change anything unless the light changes. Last night I was shooting a band and I took 300 odd frames in manual and didn't touch the settings once. If I'd been shooting in P, Av, etc. then I would have been playing around with EC for each shot.

Here's a simple test to see how easily auto will get it wrong. Take 2 apples, a sheet of white card and a sheet of black. Put the sheets next to each other an put an apple in the middle of each. In auto take a shot of the apple on the white card and another of the apple on the black card. Result? The white shot in under exposed and the black one is over exposed. The background has fooled the meter.

Taking that example into the real world let's say you're shooting a bird in flight. As you start the sequence the bird is against the sky but as you continue the sequence you pan and the bird flies in front of some trees. The light on the bird has been constant throughout but the background has changed dramatically, just like the black and white card below the apple. If you had been using manual then you would have had the right settings for the bird and had correctly exposed shots no matter what was in the background.

Shooting manual isn't about being artsy or showing off, it's about understanding the limitations of the metering and avoiding all the head work needed to compensate for it.
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whilst i wrote my reply you posted this and it is the same as my point, but maybe better written

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 
Personally I think there is something very satisfying in taking a picture in manual, that you have chosen the settings etc not a bit of firmware etc.

To be honest i use both, depends what I'm doing and what I'm using!

My OM-1 has a basic light meter and that's it, my Mamiya 1000s has a basic auto mode and my E-500 has both manual and auto.

I think (in my opinion of course!) learning manual is the best way, even if you do use auto because at least you will then understand what the settings are and why the camera has chosen them.
 
I just started using manual mode on the 450d, and it was surprisingly simple once I understood what was where. I have an OM-1, but haven't used it in a very long time, and kinda forgot it all thanks to digital P&S cameras...
 
i agree with badgeruk for the most part , whats the point of taking a meter reading manually and then putting those readings into the camera ? let the camera do it for you ( and much quicker ) use aperture priority or shutter priority for the desired effect ,use compensation if needed . having said that i ONLY ever use manual ,,,,,,,,nikon fm2n look it up .
 
donutagain said:
having said that i ONLY ever use manual ,,,,,,,,nikon fm2n look it up .
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I remember it well. And if I remember correctly, it was capable of working completely manually - without battries in fact. Imagine that now.

Great cameras in those day if you ask me. Having used a Zenith for yonks, the first camera I spent any money on was a Canon AE1 and I agonised for ages over whether I should go down the Canon or Nikon route (mind you, at the time, I didn't realise that there was a rule that said once you jump one way or the other it's impossible to change) because I loved the look of the Nikons from the 70's and 80's. All chunky and gorgeous.
 
thats right Brian ,the battery only works the ( very simple ) centre weighted light meter . and i know what you mean about difficult to change brands . mind you lets face it they are all pretty good anyway.
 
Badger UK said:
No difference. But I'm asking why you would use the camera's meter and then manually set the controls when the camera can do it instantly for you..
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Deary me.. i just spent 10 minutes answering his same question on another thread... well showing how to do manual..

heres a quick example..

I go to a non league football ground tommorow night... flodlights are on.. theres a club shop and theres a bar and theres maybe a factory or houses or whatever in the background.. all mannaer of bright lights everywhere...

I point at the grass and set the exposure... then i shoot the football.. the exposue is perfect every time.. even when a player is directly in front of a low floodlight or anything else... yet the camera meter you might trust is all over the place telling me how madly under/over exposed I am.

There are other examples but I only need one to prove that auto or semi auto modes dont work ALL the time:)
 
dod said:
M, P Av, Tv, they're all on the camera and I'll use whichever I think is appropriate at the time. More interested in the result to be honest.
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This post should have stopped this thread really..........:clap:
 
badgeruk did say for most situations not all and every .
 
KIPAX said:
There are other examples but I only need one to prove that auto or semi auto modes dont work ALL the time:)
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As I'm sure you know, one of the greatest things about photography, and one of the reasons you can be heavily involved in it for the best part of 35 years, is that nothing works all of the time, and however long we all study the craft of photography we still have lots to learn. Fantastic isn't it.
 
Badger UK said:
Unless the aim is some sort of whacky effect, why would anyone want to use the manual setting on their camera these days?
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Badger UK said:
Manual has been relegated to the artiste thinks me.
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Badger UK said:
That auto is best for most situations? Yes I did say most.
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So far none of the reasons given for choosing manual over auto were for artistic reasons, the were all practical - in the variety of situations where auto gets it plain wrong.
 
Badger UK said:
As I'm sure you know, one of the greatest things about photography, and one of the reasons you can be heavily involved in it for the best part of 35 years, is that nothing works all of the time, and however long we all study the craft of photography we still have lots to learn. Fantastic isn't it.
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I have absoloutly no idea what your saying there.. ??? you asked and i answered.. did I prove the point and you learnt or are you saying summat else? confused :(

For the record.. I use Manual less and less all the time.. but I do use it when needed beause other modes cant handle sertain situations... :)
 
fabs said:
Once again, did you mean Auto or P?
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In my mind Auto and P are pretty much the same thing. Both are automatic settings. Neither of them are anywhere near Manual.
 
KIPAX said:
I have absoloutly no idea what your saying there.. ??? you asked and i answered.. did I prove the point and you learnt or are you saying summat else? confused :(

For the record.. I use Manual less and less all the time.. but I do use it when needed beause other modes cant handle sertain situations... :)
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What I was trying to say in the first post in this thread was that cameras are becoming so good these days that using Manual is becoming less and less necessary as time goes on.

I spent years and years using manual setting (because that was all that there was) and I agree with you that there are situations when a meter can be fooled by the circumstances.

But those times are fewer and fewer and I would miss more photos (because of some exposure error) using manual than I do using one of the automatic settings; whether that setting be full auto - green rectangle - P, Tv, Av or anyother of the creative zones (as Canon call them) settings. Although I must admit that I've never really got the hang of the creative zones or the custom settings.

So what I'm saying is that I agree with you (and you agree with me) most of the way, just in the amount of times we use the M v. P setting. :-)
 
fabs said:
But you cannot change aperture or shutter speed in Auto (At least you can't in mine) which makes it massively different.
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That's right, you can't on mine either, but P is still an automatic setting, it's not manual.
 
Badger UK said:
That's right, you can't on mine either, but P is still an automatic setting, it's not manual.
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I was referring to your statement that Auto and P were pretty much the same thing and to my mind, they are not for the reasons I gave. No, they are not Manual, but neither is P fully automatic. P allows you to make the same changes to settings that you can in other modes (including manual) plus it allows pretty much instant switching between Aperture and Shutter Speed priority.
 
I basically disagree with everything badgeruk says regarding using manual and auto. Auto is for people who don't care how their photos look. Manual and other modes that give you some control make all the difference to the final photo.

I say get a P & S if you want to use auto.
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
I basically disagree with everything badgeruk says regarding using manual and auto. Auto is for people who don't care how their photos look. Manual and other modes that give you some control make all the difference to the final photo.

I say get a P & S if you want to use auto.
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I think that BadgerUK is working on the basis that all modes apart from Manual are basically auto and I think this is where a lot of confusion is arising.
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
I basically disagree with everything badgeruk says regarding using manual and auto. Auto is for people who don't care how their photos look. Manual and other modes that give you some control make all the difference to the final photo.

I say get a P & S if you want to use auto.
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Well mercy me. I could write a thousand words in reply to that answer, but your obviously drunk and feeling a little agressive. And besides. I know you don't really mean it. B :-)
 
fabs said:
I think that BadgerUK is working on the basis that all modes apart from Manual are basically auto and I think this is where a lot of confusion is arising.
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Hiya Fabs. That's it Fabs. You got it in one sentence.
 
Badger UK said:
Hiya Fabs. That's it Fabs. You got it in one sentence.
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That doesn't mean that I agree though. There are many degrees of auto. To go back to your original question,

why would anyone want to use the manual setting on their camera these days?
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I think we can summarise that there are uses for almost all modes on today's DSLRs, including Manual.
 
But they are not auto!

Av gives the tog CREATIVE CONTROL over the aperture and Tv obviously does the same for shutter speed.

It's the creative control that makes the difference. I've shot portraits using a 100mm macro that there is no way I could have got the creative depth of field if I had shot it on auto.

They are what you might call compensatory modes in that you choose one and the camera will help you out with the other but so long as you are choosing the mode you want and the value you want for creating reasons then there is no way you could call that auto.

Did the camera choose that f2.8 for shallow depth of field, no I did. Hence it can't be auto. (Or am I missing something)
 
AliB said:
Did the camera choose that f2.8 for shallow depth of field, no I did. Hence it can't be auto. (Or am I missing something)
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No Ali, I don't think you are missing anything at all. this is what I was trying to say in an earlier post. It comes down to using the tool provided in the most efficient and creative way to get the required the result.
 
I mostly use aperture priority to control depth of field except for action/sports type shots when I switch to shutter priority to better control the motion effects. Sometimes I switch to full manual (example is in the studio to better control strobe light with available light) but I never use P or Auto or any of the scene type modes. I think that the 'auto' modes give up too much control to the camera so I don't use them.
 
fabs said:
I think we can summarise that there are uses for almost all modes on today's DSLRs, including Manual.
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And you are of course right, but if we'd all said that yesterday morning when I started the tread there'd be hardly any use in having a nice little barny on the forum. Good fun says me.
 
Badger UK said:
And you are of course right, but if we'd all said that yesterday morning when I started the tread there'd be hardly any use in having a nice little barny on the forum. Good fun says me.
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Wouldn't have it any other way! :D

Edit: Although I think Dod DID say that yesterday!;)
 
AliB said:
Did the camera choose that f2.8 for shallow depth of field, no I did. Hence it can't be auto. (Or am I missing something)
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Well yes and no. You are right that there is an element of control but the setting you refer to aren't manual. And manual is what I'm talking about.

Manual to me is when the camera sets nothing at all and doesn't even decide the exposure or anything. Imagine a clock work camera (like they used to be) that you have to set everything.
 
Mark.A said:
I mostly use aperture priority to control depth of field except for action/sports type shots when I switch to shutter priority to better control the motion effects. them.
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But you see I think that aperture priority and shutter priority are automatic modes. And they are the modes I mostly use too.
 
But you see I think that aperture priority and shutter priority are automatic modes. And they are the modes I mostly use too.
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Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. I see them as semi-automatic, lol. :)
 
AliB said:
But they are not auto!

Did the camera choose that f2.8 for shallow depth of field, no I did. Hence it can't be auto. (Or am I missing something)
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you may be missing the bit where the camera chooses the shutter speed so not really manual either .
 
Badger, do you ever use EC or just go with what the camera said and rescue any duff shots later with the 2 stops of grace shooting raw offers?
 
AliB said:
Did the camera choose that f2.8 for shallow depth of field, no I did. Hence it can't be auto. (Or am I missing something)
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You're missing something :) You might choose the aperture, but the overall exposure is still automatic. For as long as the camera is filling in one or more of your aperture, shutter speed or ISO, your overall exposure is automatic.

People might refer to shutter priority and aperture priority as "semi-automatic" to distinguish them from A/P modes, but ultimately the exposure value will be identical whether you're in A, S, P or auto modes (even if the individual aspects of the exposure are different).
 
The fact is that in aperture priority or shutter priority not all of the elements that make up the exposure are made automatically by the camera, so I don't see how it can be called an 'auto' mode. It's not 'manual' mode either. Hence I think of it as 'semi-automatic'.

I appreciate that the exposure will be the same whether I set the aperture in aperture priority or let the camera choose everything in auto but in aperture priority I get to choose to shoot the aperture wide open and get a shallow DOF if that's what I want. The camera can't read my mind and automatically adjust the aperture to get the image I want. Not yet anyway. ;)
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
I basically disagree with everything badgeruk says regarding using manual and auto. Auto is for people who don't care how their photos look. Manual and other modes that give you some control make all the difference to the final photo.

I say get a P & S if you want to use auto.
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That is not a fair statement.

I used auto for ages on my landscapes (I wanted the photo to be focused all the way through) - until i learnt about aperture settings.

I certainly cared about how my photographs turned out, I used a P/S I was given to me for years, I still cared. Not everyone can afford a SLR and not everyone knows how to use one.

I agree with badgeruk that Program mode is basically auto
 
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