Manual v. Automatic

fabs said:
I can on my A700, everything except shutter speed and aperture. I would have thought Canons and Nikons would be similar in that regard.:thinking:
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Ive just tried it and unless i have to do it all throught the menu i can't adjust shutter speed, aperture, iso, focus point, metering mode and canonly pick single picture mode or one timermode for shots ( no multi shots when holding down the shutter button) Looks like i will have to get the manual out after all :D
 
Badger UK said:
Use the P setting it's sort of fully automatic but you can set the ISO and flash and stuff like that. And of course you can shoot in raw too if you ise the P setting.
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How can something be sort of fully automatic surly its fully automatic or not :shrug:
 
Badger UK said:
So that you can use depth of field and shutter speed etc.
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But you can't adjust shutter speed or aperture in Auto. Obviously you've now stated that you meant "P". That's a whole different ball game and argument and is not the same as Auto for the reasons I said at the beginning of this post.
 
Badger UK said:
Now I don't wnat to be contorversial, but I defy anyone on this site to beat the electronics on a modern camera for either focus or exposure in 99% of circumstances.
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Focusing in low light and small moving objects are two examples of where modern electronics will struggle.

As for manual, I've not read every post in the thread but the main reason I use it is to stop the camera trying to be clever and getting it wrong. Shooting a band, sports, etc. in fairly consistent light means I can take a reading dial it in and just shoot. If I'm using any flavour of auto I'd have to use EC for just about every shot. A band against a dark background will fool the meter, two teams in white and black kit will fool the meter and so on.

Manual has its place and makes life a lot simpler when used properly.
 
When I'm taking long exposure shots in the dark using my D40, or I'm trying (note the empathsis) to take a lightning shot in night time then near-total manual control is a must. I can't rely on it trying to auto focus onto a chosen point in the dark (which is normal), and then there's the ability to choose the length of time the shutter can stay open for. It's the same when I try and take cloudscape shots with no foreground objects, the camera do struggle to try and find a focus point so I click it over to manual focus.
But for anything else (off the hip outdoors shots in the day time) then I do tend to rely on the auto. :)
 
M, P Av, Tv, they're all on the camera and I'll use whichever I think is appropriate at the time. More interested in the result to be honest.
 
Yeah auto is for people not interested in photography. Why spend all the money and use AUTO!!!??? Crazy I say.
 
I think it is a good idea for everyone to at least LEARN how to use manual properly so they know their camera inside out.

After that, they can use what they want!
 
Janice said:
I think it is a good idea for everyone to at least LEARN how to use manual properly so they know their camera inside out.

After that, they can use what they want!
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I think it's also more satisfying to learn how to take a pic in manual mode when the end result is a happy one.
I get annoyed if I make a mistake in manual mode but I hopefully learn from it.
 
Janice said:
I think it is a good idea for everyone to at least LEARN how to use manual properly so they know their camera inside out.
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What are you meaning by know the camera inside out Janice?
 
I rarely use full manual, but since I got hold of a "film" camera, I've started using it a lot more. When you don't have the ability to alter exposure willy nilly in PS, you start to understand how important it is to expose properly.

For example, my EOS 450d, when in Av, will often shoot different shutter speeds when looking at exactly the same subject. Knowing exactly what shutter speed I wanted in the first place (by using a light meter) I would be able to set it and thus not depend on how the camera was feeling that day.

Obviously when you don't have time to set up a shot properly, Av and Tv are fantastic. But full auto is pointless on an SLR - auto ISO and auto WB? No thanks.
 
dod said:
What are you meaning by know the camera inside out Janice?
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I think she means knowing how the processor will determine the aperture/shutter for particular circumstances, and knowing how to override these to produce the desired effect.
 
Mattfeliks said:
I think she means knowing how the processor will determine the aperture/shutter for particular circumstances, and knowing how to override these to produce the desired effect.
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So, on knowing how the camera will choose the shutter/aperture, if that's what she's meaning, why would you use manual for that? Surely you'd use P which removes all user bias? I'm just thinking that if you're trying to work out how the camera meter reacts the last thing you'd want is to use manual :shrug:

You can also use the shift function when using P to achieve the desired ap/SH combination.
 
fabs said:
But you can't adjust shutter speed or aperture in Auto. Obviously you've now stated that you meant "P". That's a whole different ball game and argument and is not the same as Auto for the reasons I said at the beginning of this post.
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Using a camera in P or in one of the Av or Tv modes isn't using a camera in manual. Manual is not using any of the camera's meters or systems. Manual is taking light readings using a hand held meter or similar.
 
fabs said:
My serious reply now. Yes I also use Aperture priority most of the time and 90% of the time the camera gets the exposure right. On the occasions it doesn't I can either use exposure compensation or, as I shoot in RAW, it can be fixed in PS. There is nothing wrong in this, it IS digital photography and shouldn't be stigmatised. Full manual also has it's uses especially in unusual situations as said in a previous post. For me Manual is a must when doing flash photography as it lets me have full control over aperture AND ambient light by use of shutter speed.....................
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The perfect response as far as I'm concerned.
 
Badger UK said:
Unless the aim is some sort of whacky effect, why would anyone want to use the manual setting on their camera these days?
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Why buy a DSLR at a hugely inflated price if you did not wish to affect the output from your camera with lenses and/or settings? How does the camera know exactly what you are intending it to do?

Chris
 
Badger UK said:
Using a camera in P or in one of the Av or Tv modes isn't using a camera in manual. Manual is not using any of the camera's meters or systems. Manual is taking light readings using a hand held meter or similar.
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Well not quite. When in manual the camera's meter still gives an indication and can be used quite effectively to reach a correct exposure setting. The 'Manual' setting is simply a setting that allows adjustment of all the necessary criteria (aperture, shutter speed, ISO) independantly to achieve the desired exposure.
 
Well I have a d200, and have never, ever used the automatic or semi auto modes myself, only if handing a camera over do i set it to auto, meter, and set Exposure Compesation.

I cannot stand auto, I learned all manual, and will stay that way.

The real question is why have program modes? (Esp. the big green button mode)
 
fabs said:
My serious reply now. Yes I also use Aperture priority most of the time and 90% of the time the camera gets the exposure right. On the occasions it doesn't I can either use exposure compensation or, as I shoot in RAW, it can be fixed in PS. There is nothing wrong in this, it IS digital photography and shouldn't be stigmatised. Full manual also has it's uses especially in unusual situations as said in a previous post. For me Manual is a must when doing flash photography as it lets me have full control over aperture AND ambient light by use of shutter speed.
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That's a good answer, and sort of agrees with my opinion that using the camera's systems is far more relaiable than using the manual setting.
 
Badger UK said:
Using a camera in P or in one of the Av or Tv modes isn't using a camera in manual. Manual is not using any of the camera's meters or systems. Manual is taking light readings using a hand held meter or similar.
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Why isn't it manual when i use my D300's exposure meter to give me an indication of the exposure i will get using the settings i have told the camera to use ? :thinking: Why must i use an external light meter when my camera has a perfectly good one ?
 
TheKrikkitWars said:
Well I have a d200, and have never, ever used the automatic or semi auto modes myself, only if handing a camera over do i set it to auto, meter, and set Exposure Compesation.

I cannot stand auto, I learned all manual, and will stay that way.
(Esp. the big green button mode)
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You should give it a go.

It's fantastic these days and I'm sure that once you got the hang of it you'd find that you shooting becomes more consistant. and by using one of the 'semi-automatice modes (Av, Tv) you can still control DoF and movement blur etc.
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
Why isn't it manual when i use my D300's exposure meter to give me an indication of the exposure i will get using the settings i have told the camera to use ? :thinking: Why must i use an external light meter when my camera has a perfectly good one ?
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If the camera is actually set to manual it is manual. It's just that I got the impression that someone earlier on was using settings such as Av and Tv believing that that was using the camera in manual.

And....

If you're using the camera's meter why have it set on manual? Although I can see when using a camera as you say is handy and has some merit very occasionally, I can invisage very, very few circumstances when what you suggest is better than using one of the auto (or semi-auto) settings.
 
Badger UK said:
If the camera is actually set to manual it is manual. It's just that I got the impression that someone earlier on was using settings such as Av and Tv believing that that was using the camera in manual.

And....

If you're using the camera's meter why have it set on manual? Although I can see when using a camera as you say is handy and has some merit very occasionally, I can invisage very, very few circumstances when what you suggest is better than using one of the auto (or semi-auto) settings.
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When taking macro shots you want control over the shutter & aperture , you need aperture to control the limited DOF you have and you need to keep the shutter speed high enough to ensure you don't get any camera shake and its a lot easier looking at an internal exposure meter than trying to use a separate meter.

But when i shoot non macro static objects i tend to use AP (Aperture prioty) and if it moves S shutter priority. and make exposure adjustments using +/- EV.

I not even sure the D300 has a fully 'Auto' mode :thinking:
 
Badger UK said:
If you're using the camera's meter why have it set on manual? Although I can see when using a camera as you say is handy and has some merit very occasionally, I can invisage very, very few circumstances when what you suggest is better than using one of the auto (or semi-auto) settings.
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As I said earlier - manual lets you take a reading and then forget about metering until the light changes. In any other mode you have to work harder because you constantly need to assess if you need any EC based on experience of when the meter is getting it wrong. This can be most shooting situations, sports, stage, wildlife, portraits, macro, etc.
 
Badger UK said:
You should give it a go.

It's fantastic these days and I'm sure that once you got the hang of it you'd find that you shooting becomes more consistant. and by using one of the 'semi-automatice modes (Av, Tv) you can still control DoF and movement blur etc.
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I'm shooting WW Kayaking mainly, As good as Nikon are, they don't yet have a program mode that can cope with bright white, dark brown/green/black, and a vibrant colour all at the same time, never mind if I want to use fill flash. whilst EC helps a bit, I've found that I get better results manually. I'll give the auto modes a go if i ever get out togging on other subjects. But I'm happier to use manual, cos I'm weird.
 
pxl8 said:
As I said earlier - manual lets you take a reading and then forget about metering until the light changes. In any other mode you have to work harder because you constantly need to assess if you need any EC based on experience of when the meter is getting it wrong. This can be most shooting situations, sports, stage, wildlife, portraits, macro, etc.
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But if you have the camera in one of the auto modes, you can forget about the light changing completely and get on with worrying about composure and capturing the moment.

I simply don't believe that you (as a human being) can asses the light and make adjustments quicker, more accuratly or more consistantly than a modern camera. However good you are, you just can't.
 
TheKrikkitWars said:
Program Mode? It's near enough auto.
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Yes just checked the manual and its 'Programmed Auto' (never used it ) and Nikon are that confident its the dogs dangelies the manual states
'Recommended for snapshots or if there is little time to adjust your cameras settings' :eek:
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
Yes just checked the manual and its 'Programmed Auto' (never used it ) and Nikon are that confident its the dogs dangelies the manual states
'Recommended for snapshots or if there is little time to adjust your cameras settings' :eek:
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I still don't believe that you will get better, more consistant results using a camera maqnually than by using the camera's facilities.

You see, I've taken hundreds of thousands of photographs over the years. Starting in the early 70's with a manual camera and although (even if I say so myself) I was quite competent, I still had more failures then due to exposure problems than I do now with automatic cameras.

Ofcourse there are times when manual is the thing to go for, but my experience is proving to me that those times are getting fewer and fewer.
 
Badger UK said:
Using a camera in P or in one of the Av or Tv modes isn't using a camera in manual. Manual is not using any of the camera's meters or systems. Manual is taking light readings using a hand held meter or similar.
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I never said that Av or Tv mode was manual. Manual is where the camera is set to "M" which is "Manual". What difference does it make whether you use the camera's meter or an external one? :thinking:
 
Badger UK said:
I can envisage very, very few circumstances when what you suggest is better than using one of the auto (or semi-auto) settings.
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The classic one for me is blown skies. The number of blown skies I got on auto settings was horrendous! At least on manual I can control the exposure to the extent that I can minimise the problem.

Kayaking and shooting bands have also already been mentioned.

There are loads of examples from wedding pics (I'd shoot a lot of those on Av) to sports (Tv) Portraiture I'd shoot Manual. Anything with flash I'd shoot manual.

I'd struggle to find something other than a grab shot that I'd be happy to use P for.

And yes I do use a light meter and a grey card. (And I shoot film too so I'm a real dinosaur!)
 
fabs said:
I never said that Av or Tv mode was manual. Manual is where the camera is set to "M" which is "Manual". What difference does it make whether you use the camera's meter or an external one? :thinking:
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No difference. But I'm asking why you would use the camera's meter and then manually set the controls when the camera can do it instantly for you.

I can see some merits of using a hand held meter to take incident or reflective readings and the like, but I can't believe that it would be consistantly better to set the controls yourself. My experience says it isn't.
 
Badger UK said:
But if you have the camera in one of the auto modes, you can forget about the light changing completely and get on with worrying about composure and capturing the moment.

I simply don't believe that you (as a human being) can asses the light and make adjustments quicker, more accuratly or more consistantly than a modern camera. However good you are, you just can't.
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But that's the whole point. In manual once you've got your settings you don't need to change anything unless the light changes. Last night I was shooting a band and I took 300 odd frames in manual and didn't touch the settings once. If I'd been shooting in P, Av, etc. then I would have been playing around with EC for each shot.

Here's a simple test to see how easily auto will get it wrong. Take 2 apples, a sheet of white card and a sheet of black. Put the sheets next to each other an put an apple in the middle of each. In auto take a shot of the apple on the white card and another of the apple on the black card. Result? The white shot in under exposed and the black one is over exposed. The background has fooled the meter.

Taking that example into the real world let's say you're shooting a bird in flight. As you start the sequence the bird is against the sky but as you continue the sequence you pan and the bird flies in front of some trees. The light on the bird has been constant throughout but the background has changed dramatically, just like the black and white card below the apple. If you had been using manual then you would have had the right settings for the bird and had correctly exposed shots no matter what was in the background.

Shooting manual isn't about being artsy or showing off, it's about understanding the limitations of the metering and avoiding all the head work needed to compensate for it.
 
Badger UK said:
No difference. But I'm asking why you would use the camera's meter and then manually set the controls when the camera can do it instantly for you.

I can see some merits of using a hand held meter to take incident or reflective readings and the like, but I can't believe that it would be consistantly better to set the controls yourself. My experience says it isn't.
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To be honest I'm not totally sure myself. As I use manual mainly for flash I don't tend to use the meter, I just change the settings to achieve the depth of field and amount of light I want. If there are people who use manual for everything then I'm sure it works well for them. As Dod said, the tools are there and there's nothing wrong with using them.
 
pxl8 said:
But that's the whole point. In manual once you've got your settings you don't need to change anything unless the light changes. Last night I was shooting a band and I took 300 odd frames in manual and didn't touch the settings once. If I'd been shooting in P, Av, etc. then I would have been playing around with EC for each shot.

Here's a simple test to see how easily auto will get it wrong. Take 2 apples, a sheet of white card and a sheet of black. Put the sheets next to each other an put an apple in the middle of each. In auto take a shot of the apple on the white card and another of the apple on the black card. Result? The white shot in under exposed and the black one is over exposed. The background has fooled the meter.

Taking that example into the real world let's say you're shooting a bird in flight. As you start the sequence the bird is against the sky but as you continue the sequence you pan and the bird flies in front of some trees. The light on the bird has been constant throughout but the background has changed dramatically, just like the black and white card below the apple. If you had been using manual then you would have had the right settings for the bird and had correctly exposed shots no matter what was in the background.

Shooting manual isn't about being artsy or showing off, it's about understanding the limitations of the metering and avoiding all the head work needed to compensate for it.
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:clap::clap::clap:
 
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