Manual? spot? zone?

Janice

Janice

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Janice
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Right, I have asked this question before but have not had an answer that explains. Maybe now we have some new members someone might be able to put this down so I can understand.

Or maybe its that Im not wording my question well......I will try harder.

I use manual mode on my camera all the time, along with spot metering. I tend to go on a loose idea of the Zone System... making sure my highlights in the clouds for instance arent blown out.. by metering off those and setting them at about +1.5. Or something dark would be spot metered and set at -1.5 (just examples)

Now.......................... If someone is using manual.... and uses matrix/evaluative metering which has loads of points.... this zone system method cant be done can it, because you cant say "I am metering off the white cloud" because it has loads of metering points all over the place on lots of different tones so you cant set anything as +1.5 for whites for example. Wouldnt they have to always set it in the centre and therefore defeat the object of being on manual?

So on the other side of the coin, if someone is using matrix metering, what is the point of using manual?
Wouldnt they be best using one of the automaticy type things like AP, or TV.

Answers on a postcard please :D :lol:
 
IIRC the matrix/evaluative metering will take readings from different parts of the scene and computes an average exposure to use for that scene. (apologies if I am totally wrong)
 
namllihs said:
IIRC the matrix/evaluative metering will take readings from different parts of the scene and computes an average exposure to use for that scene. (apologies if I am totally wrong)
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That's correct
 
Exactlly what i said. so whats the point in using manual if you arent going to put a certain point of your picture at a designated place on the exposure line in your viewfinder?

If you are going to use matrix and take the average that they say... you might as well just keep the pointer in the centre all the time...........no point using manual then is there?

I can see by those two answers that no-one has a clue what im talking about..............or thinks that I dont!! :D
 
The matrix metering should be quicker to use, also you can overide it if you want ( as it is only a computer and may give a result you were not expecting). the beauty of modern cameras is that you have as much or as little control as you want.
 
I see what you're saying Janice, but there are times when I will use manual to produce the creative effect I am after (small or wide depth of field for example) but still let my camera's matrix meter, meter the shot. It's far cleverer than I am.

If I am shooting landscapes, or other similar shots that it's easy to fool the camera into an incorrect exposure, I would meter from the ground or the sky and set that manually. The trick is knowing when to override the automatic setting.

I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over any of it to be honest :)
 
Ross said:
I see what you're saying Janice, but there are times when I will use manual to produce the creative effect I am after (small or wide depth of field for example) but still let my camera's matrix meter, meter the shot. It's far cleverer than I am.

If I am shooting landscapes, or other similar shots that it's easy to fool the camera into an incorrect exposure, I would meter from the ground or the sky and set that manually. The trick is knowing when to override the automatic setting.

I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over any of it to be honest :)
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ok i will find something else to lose sleep over instead! :D
 
Soz Janice, but as I read it you are looking a bit confused dear

Evaluative metering is great for 95% of subjects and will be close enough right on them all. If you, as the 'brains' behind the camera think it's got it wrong as you can see sun behind white clouds and suspect a blown area you wish to avoid, then you have to take charge and either:

Set an exposure compensation accordingly (as you say +/- 1.5 stops perhaps) on the auto setting; or,
switch to manual mode and make the adjustment that way

To make matters easier, you can of course use the spot meter function, hold that exposure reading, recompose and fire away, or note the spot readings and transfer them manually

Many will simply stay on auto, chimp for flashing highlights and use exp comp then

The point of using manual is simply more control & more time (releasing the shutter button or exp 'hold' on auto would lose the settings you just read); it doesn't have anything per se to do with whether you use spot, evaluative or guesswork

So to paraphrase Ross - sleep easy lass - it don't matter
 
I'm just wondering if you see matrix metering as cheating Janice?

If so, do you shoot in raw so you can edit and maybe change the exposure later in photoshop? Is this not also cheating from a purists point of view?
 
Oh no.. i dont see it as cheating. i was just asking how you can pull down your exposure for getting white clouds not blown out.... if you havent spot metered on them? :shrug:
 
That just follows on from my earlier post, and that's knowing the limitations of the matrix meter so you can override it when necessary ;)

As much as I hate Ken Rockwell, there's a good article on metering on his site, including the Nikon technical documentation

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/matrix.htm
 
Janice said:
Exactlly what i said. so whats the point in using manual if you arent going to put a certain point of your picture at a designated place on the exposure line in your viewfinder?
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Couple of reasons I use manual:

1) If the light is fairly constant then I'll take a reading and dial it in and just shoot away. This avoids the camera from being too clever and compensating for a change in background. A couple of examples would be shooting sports where the background can vary from light to dark or bands where the background is usually dark and the meter will tend to over expose.

2) For times when, from experience, I know the meter is getting it wrong but this is really the same as dialling in a bit of EC except in manual mode I have a choice of changing the shutter or aperture to suit my needs without changing program mode.
 
Thanks guys. Im perfectly happy using manual and spot metering all the time.

Was just wondering what others do really.... nice to hear all your methods. :thumbs:
 
FWIW I see just what you're saying Janice and you're spot on. (see what I did there :lol:)

Using matrix or evaluative metering and auto mode are at one end of the scale. Spot metering and full manual is at the other. There is a point somewhere for all situations and all people and very few folks solutions are at one extreme or the other.

I think the way you work is certainly the one with most creative control but then I've long since given up metering at all when I've got the histogram data to hand.
 
What benefit do you get from using manual all the time? The times when matrix metering cock up are so few, and even then the solution is to just use manual/exposure comp: why bother?

Presumably you set your aperture to control the depth of field, then adjust the shutter speed 'til you're exposing correctly, boosting the ISO if you need to: why? You're just taking longer to replicate the exact step taken by the camera. Set aperture, adjust ISO 'til you get a fast enough shutter speed: one less step, surely the same result?
 
I'd say the benefit was creative control over the exposure without the camera constantly sticking it's nose in.
 
robmiller said:
The times when matrix metering cock up are so few,
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If you look at the blown out whites in so many amateur's shots you will see that this is just not true.

If I spot meter off the white and take the meter to +2 (or 1.5 depending just how white they are) I can do that in one move. That is what I do in every shot and it works.. always.
It's one move. I have mastered it and I get it right now. I meter and take the shot. Done.

In matrix Id have to take a shot, find the highlights are all flashing, alter the exposure compensation (in AV for example) by pressing other buttons and turning a dial, then trying again.

By using the manual and spot metering method, I have become very good at judging the tones in a scene... that is the primary reason I started to use it....I wanted to learn, and it has become second nature to me. I wanted to learn about the tonal values and it does work. I think much more about what is in a scene now.

Ok perhaps if i was having to shoot quickly, sport etc i would try matrix and TV mode... but for landscapes its manual and spot all the way for me.

I feel I "know" my camera a lot better now.

I can work it, instead of it working me.
 
This has actually developed into another discussion completely.....the benefits of manual!! :D

What I was trying to get at was........ if someone is on manual.... and spot meters on a white cloud and puts that at +1.5 (which is pretty much the way of using the zone system)
Another person cant do exactly th(the zone system thing of putting a tone on a place on the meter) because it would be showing them average readings from all over and not just the cloud as it did in spot.

Does that make it clearer?

Im not saying I dont understand how im supposed to use my camera........I do.........its just a general question about if you can use the zone system with anything else than spot.... which i think you cant really.
 
its just a general question about if you can use the zone system with anything else than spot.... which i think you cant really.
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Simple question, simple answer. :D

Understanding the tones and tonal range in a shot is a great thing to be including in the image making process and can only help to better our photos.
 
Janice said:
........its just a general question about if you can use the zone system with anything else than spot.... which i think you can't really.
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I'd agree with you, if you're using manual and zone system, go for spot every time

about the only time you could use matrix/evaluative is to point the entire camera at the cloud
but that'd be the same effect as spot metering anyway!

I'm interested to know why you'd want to do anything different?

that's my invoice for £0.02 in the post then!
 
Janice said:
Im not saying I dont understand how im supposed to use my camera........I do.........its just a general question about if you can use the zone system with anything else than spot.... which i think you cant really.
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You could probably use the zone system via your histogram if you know how to read it and make that mental leap. That way you can use any metering system (more or less) but you'd have to take a pic first to get a reading and then act on information presented to you ... if you see what I mean :suspect:
 
Mohain said:
You could probably use the zone system via your histogram if you know how to read it and make that mental leap. That way you can use any metering system (more or less) but you'd have to take a pic first to get a reading and then act on information presented to you ... if you see what I mean :suspect:
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Which I will continue to maintian is the quickest and most accurate way to get bang on exposures.

Using a spot meter will probably teach you more and is a workflow that can be used on any camera with exposure control though.
 
you just meter off the clouds whatever you want to do with them. You then make a decision about how many stops off mid grey (the meters reading) you want to go with them. 1.5/2/0 stops adjustment will save the detial in most cases as Janice has said but put them right up into the highlights. Go 3.0/3.5 stops and they're gone. :D
 
dazzajl said:
you just meter off the clouds whatever you want to do with them. You then make a decision about how many stops off mid grey (the meters reading) you want to go with them. 1.5/2/0 stops adjustment will save the detial in most cases as Janice has said but put them right up into the highlights. Go 3.0/3.5 stops and they're gone. :D
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Dazza ... you're on my wavelength, man!! ;) :D

That is EXACTLY how I work! :thumbs:
 
I would argue that you are beginning to understand light rather than the variables of camera settings.

The different settings you chose are just a means to an end, and there are different routes that will take you to that same destination.

For example, I use evaluative metering 95 % of the time on aperture priority (a/v), but I do know through experience when to use exposure compensation and/or filters to balance the exposure, this is done generally intuitively in response to the available light.

I very rarely use manual exposure or manual focussing, canon have spent millions developing an auto exposure/focussing system that does a far better job than I can.

The only exceptions to the above, in high/narrow contrast subjects (running water for example) I spot meter the highlights, but still using a/v

And the only time I use manual focus is macros and extremely low light when even the fastest lenses struggle to focus lock.
 
Les McLean said:
I would argue that you are beginning to understand light rather than the variables of camera settings.
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Sounds a bit like where I was going, before I went for something to eat and forgot all about this thread!

Back in the olden days (when I started in photography), dinosaurs ruled the well-known flat Earth and we had this stuff called 'film' - which meant if you got it wrong in the taking, you'd bol***ks'd it :bang:

To add interest, we could also have selenium cell metering sat on the camera rather than looking through the lens, and you had no real idea of what it was metering, just that it was 'something' in front of you :shrug:

Thus, you used a bit of trial and error, but quickly cos it cost a lot, and learnt to use your brain. Evaluative, spot, matrix, etc. were but dreams; as were AV, SP, TV, P, auto-anything, instant viewing of the image and histograms

We learnt how the film worked in different conditions and decided how we'd meter by largely gut instinct - though to help us the filmakers had pictures of the sun & clouds on the packets this film stuff came in, with suggested aperture & shutter speed settings

The technique was basically to point the meter roughly where you wanted to shoot, take a 'reading' then ignore it based on experience

Today, I point my highly complex camera at the subject, take a reading and it's usually right - where the old brain cells say 'No', a bit of exp comp does it every time. As a result it's almost always on Ap Priority, centre weighted and I never use any other form of metering

I would like to think I've finally developed an understanding of light, or perhaps I just can't be ars*d to bother understanding the cameras of today - it works whatever :D
 
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