Beginner Manual focus.

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I have a couple of lenses for my D5200 that only function with manual focus. One is an older nikon AF lens and one is the an Helios screw mount lens.
No matter what I do, I can't seem to nail focus using the OVF, is this normal, because it is looking like I will only be able to use these lenses in live view if that's the case.
 
I have a couple of lenses for my D5200 that only function with manual focus. One is an older nikon AF lens and one is the an Helios screw mount lens.
No matter what I do, I can't seem to nail focus using the OVF, is this normal, because it is looking like I will only be able to use these lenses in live view if that's the case.

Have you tried adjusting the viewfinder focus ? It's the small ring just to the top right of the viewfinder as you look throught it.
 
As with most things, it is down to practice. Focus very slowly, focus slightly beyond what looks to be best focus, focus back slightly and slowly.
 
Pretty normal, OVFs on these types of cameras are not designed for easy MF; they are small, log magnification with no focus screen.

Of course, due to lack of focus screen, if your eyesight is out then there's no chance...
 
Do you need or wear glasses?

Xcuse me, do I miss something.:confused: If you can't focus for whatever reason the lens through the view finder how will it be easier to focus it through live view?
 
Do you need or wear glasses?

Xcuse me, do I miss something.:confused: If you can't focus for whatever reason the lens through the view finder how will it be easier to focus it through live view?
I do wear reading glasses occasionally, but I can see difference between in focus and out of focus with the lenses that work with the AF system. I can even adjust them manually slightly to adjust the DoF without any issue.
Live view is a much larger screen and seems to be a more accurate representation of what I get out of the camera.
 
I do wear reading glasses occasionally, but I can see difference between in focus and out of focus with the lenses that work with the AF system. I can even adjust them manually slightly to adjust the DoF without any issue.
Live view is a much larger screen and seems to be a more accurate representation of what I get out of the camera.

Apologies if I suggest things you have tried/know. I wear reading glasses, and the same but weaker prescription for mid-length (eg. computer screen) and weaker yet for driving. One approach would be to try without glasses but increasing the + side of the diopter. Try using the lenses that you can focus with and then as has been suggested above. You go passed the focus point return to the other side and basically it is backwards and forward untill you find the sweet spot.

Live view gives you a bigger picture but in my experience it is just too pixelated to use for focusing. Maybe I am missing something. Finally, I do not have a clue how the aperture works on the lenses you got but you need to keep it as open as possible when focusing.
 
Apologies if I suggest things you have tried/know. I wear reading glasses, and the same but weaker prescription for mid-length (eg. computer screen) and weaker yet for driving. One approach would be to try without glasses but increasing the + side of the diopter. Try using the lenses that you can focus with and then as has been suggested above. You go passed the focus point return to the other side and basically it is backwards and forward untill you find the sweet spot.

Live view gives you a bigger picture but in my experience it is just too pixelated to use for focusing. Maybe I am missing something. Finally, I do not have a clue how the aperture works on the lenses you got but you need to keep it as open as possible when focusing.
No need to apologize for any advice given. I have tried most of these methods, will try again with my glasses, but this should not be the issue when the focus area lines are pin sharp on the OVF. The live view also allows focus peaking, so that is where the major advantage is.
 
Pretty normal, OVFs on these types of cameras are not designed for easy MF; they are small, log magnification with no focus screen.

Of course, due to lack of focus screen, if your eyesight is out then there's no chance...
This^

You're looking to do something that your camera wasn't designed to do.

Those MF lenses were designed to be used on cameras with larger brighter viewfinders which contained actual focussing aids.
 
These digital cameras (as has been said) are not designed for manual focus, especially crop sensor. Full frame are a little bit easier to focus with but still nowhere near as easy as film cameras. There is no way round it. :(
 
I can focus the macro lens on my D7200, the problem is what to focus it on :-( And both my mamiya and a 35mm Yashica I had, have/had plain matt screens, no aids. Ooops I am lying ... the mamiya had a magnifying glass on the hood on the top ... maybe there is the answer, a magnifying eye piece, I remember I was using that to focus and putting back down if shooting from waist level or on tripod).
 
I managed manual focus pretty well on a d300, for what it's worth. Maybe it had a brighter solid glass prism and a D5200 doesn't? But I routinely used a plain screen in manual 35mm slr's for years without issues (no focus aids), and these days find that with a full-frame dslr I can focus (on stationary subjects) as well as ever by eye, without invoking the 'in focus' indicator (green dot).
 
D
I managed manual focus pretty well on a d300, for what it's worth. Maybe it had a brighter solid glass prism and a D5200 doesn't? But I routinely used a plain screen in manual 35mm slr's for years without issues (no focus aids), and these days find that with a full-frame dslr I can focus (on stationary subjects) as well as ever by eye, without invoking the 'in focus' indicator (green dot).
D5200 has a pentamirror not prism, so quite a bit dimmer.
 
Well that's probably the killer, then. I never had such a thing, in fact I took care to avoid them!
 
Well that's probably the killer, then. I never had such a thing, in fact I took care to avoid them!

Agreed - the combination of pentamirror AND smaller format that accepts less light would make life difficult.
 
I'm going to put the cat among the pigeons; Once upon a time, long long ago, having a reflex through the lens view-finder was a luxury... cameras had a peep-hole view-finder and you focused by best guess on the distance scale, and inced a bit whether the aperture gave you enough DoF around that to get the subject in the DoF zone....I mean on many even a range-finder to measure the subject distance was a luxury!

The obsession of getting you main subject crisp in the split-screen of an SLR that has followed through to obsessing about the red dots in digital, is making man slave to the machine, rather than its master! And loosing us the art of 'selective' focus, working wide-open, and assuming what you see is what you get through the periscope!

Using the Helios; I suspect its an automatc lens, that has a needle to stop down to taking aperture on shutter release; on an adapter mount, it's likely that needle is depressed by the mount, so you will have to manually open up to compose and stop down to shoot; if you are trying to compose at taking aperture, then the view finder will be dim.. that wont help make focusing easy, if you are trying to focus at stopped down taking aperture..

Then. still with the Helios; don't fret about the persicope! Go old school! That lens has an proper distance scale on the focus ring and DoF brackets to indicate the DoF zone on that scale for any aperture. look at your scene not the gauges; assess the ambient lighting; assess the subject distance, ponder the DoF you want around it; focus by the numbers not the view-finder OR the preview-screen! Stop Down to taking aperture, see what it looks like. Will be brighter and easier to see on the back-screen; but use as a confidence check of your guesstimates; break the gadget-dependency!

Translate to other lenses.

I have a wonderful set shot with my Grandad's retinetter a year or so back; that is a view-finder camera, and that is how you HAVE to work! Assess by eye; focus to the scale; set aperture to give enough DoF tolerance around that; use port-hole view-finder just for final framing. Another bequeathed old film camera I have is a 120 roll film Ziess Ikonta... focus the same way, and it's view-finder is a wire frame 'gun-sight'! Doesn't even have glass in it!... remember, technology is supposed to HELP not hinder us.. folk too cracking shots without such aids in years past, you still can, and the diligence and discipline, and breaking the chains of being a slave to the machine rather than t'other way about; like as not to alter your way of working, and make you question even red-dot-dependency, to exploit real selective-focus with AF lenses where appropriate, deliberately NOT focusing on what the dot presumes you should!..

That little tip digested and exploited, suddenly you'll be able to get shallow focus or dissociated back-ground effects of the sort so many achieve only with ultra fast aperture primes, with pretty 'slow' lenses and a bit of old fashioned know how, AND get better shots putting the DoF where you want it rather than arbitrarily 1/3 in front 2/3 behind the red-dots presumed, target!
 
I'm going to put the cat among the pigeons; Once upon a time, long long ago, having a reflex through the lens view-finder was a luxury... cameras had a peep-hole view-finder and you focused by best guess on the distance scale, and inced a bit whether the aperture gave you enough DoF around that to get the subject in the DoF zone....I mean on many even a range-finder to measure the subject distance was a luxury!

The obsession of getting you main subject crisp in the split-screen of an SLR that has followed through to obsessing about the red dots in digital, is making man slave to the machine, rather than its master! And loosing us the art of 'selective' focus, working wide-open, and assuming what you see is what you get through the periscope!

Using the Helios; I suspect its an automatc lens, that has a needle to stop down to taking aperture on shutter release; on an adapter mount, it's likely that needle is depressed by the mount, so you will have to manually open up to compose and stop down to shoot; if you are trying to compose at taking aperture, then the view finder will be dim.. that wont help make focusing easy, if you are trying to focus at stopped down taking aperture..

Then. still with the Helios; don't fret about the persicope! Go old school! That lens has an proper distance scale on the focus ring and DoF brackets to indicate the DoF zone on that scale for any aperture. look at your scene not the gauges; assess the ambient lighting; assess the subject distance, ponder the DoF you want around it; focus by the numbers not the view-finder OR the preview-screen! Stop Down to taking aperture, see what it looks like. Will be brighter and easier to see on the back-screen; but use as a confidence check of your guesstimates; break the gadget-dependency!

Translate to other lenses.

I have a wonderful set shot with my Grandad's retinetter a year or so back; that is a view-finder camera, and that is how you HAVE to work! Assess by eye; focus to the scale; set aperture to give enough DoF tolerance around that; use port-hole view-finder just for final framing. Another bequeathed old film camera I have is a 120 roll film Ziess Ikonta... focus the same way, and it's view-finder is a wire frame 'gun-sight'! Doesn't even have glass in it!... remember, technology is supposed to HELP not hinder us.. folk too cracking shots without such aids in years past, you still can, and the diligence and discipline, and breaking the chains of being a slave to the machine rather than t'other way about; like as not to alter your way of working, and make you question even red-dot-dependency, to exploit real selective-focus with AF lenses where appropriate, deliberately NOT focusing on what the dot presumes you should!..

That little tip digested and exploited, suddenly you'll be able to get shallow focus or dissociated back-ground effects of the sort so many achieve only with ultra fast aperture primes, with pretty 'slow' lenses and a bit of old fashioned know how, AND get better shots putting the DoF where you want it rather than arbitrarily 1/3 in front 2/3 behind the red-dots presumed, target!

Exactly! I remember 55 years ago that whenever I took my camera anywhere I also took an exposure meter and a tape measure. There were heroes back then who sneered at my unprofessional inability to guess exposure and distance by eye, but I got more accurate results :-)
 
I'm going to put the cat among the pigeons; Once upon a time, long long ago, having a reflex through the lens view-finder was a luxury... cameras had a peep-hole view-finder and you focused by best guess on the distance scale, and inced a bit whether the aperture gave you enough DoF around that to get the subject in the DoF zone....I mean on many even a range-finder to measure the subject distance was a luxury!

The obsession of getting you main subject crisp in the split-screen of an SLR that has followed through to obsessing about the red dots in digital, is making man slave to the machine, rather than its master! And loosing us the art of 'selective' focus, working wide-open, and assuming what you see is what you get through the periscope!

Using the Helios; I suspect its an automatc lens, that has a needle to stop down to taking aperture on shutter release; on an adapter mount, it's likely that needle is depressed by the mount, so you will have to manually open up to compose and stop down to shoot; if you are trying to compose at taking aperture, then the view finder will be dim.. that wont help make focusing easy, if you are trying to focus at stopped down taking aperture..

Then. still with the Helios; don't fret about the persicope! Go old school! That lens has an proper distance scale on the focus ring and DoF brackets to indicate the DoF zone on that scale for any aperture. look at your scene not the gauges; assess the ambient lighting; assess the subject distance, ponder the DoF you want around it; focus by the numbers not the view-finder OR the preview-screen! Stop Down to taking aperture, see what it looks like. Will be brighter and easier to see on the back-screen; but use as a confidence check of your guesstimates; break the gadget-dependency!

Translate to other lenses.

I have a wonderful set shot with my Grandad's retinetter a year or so back; that is a view-finder camera, and that is how you HAVE to work! Assess by eye; focus to the scale; set aperture to give enough DoF tolerance around that; use port-hole view-finder just for final framing. Another bequeathed old film camera I have is a 120 roll film Ziess Ikonta... focus the same way, and it's view-finder is a wire frame 'gun-sight'! Doesn't even have glass in it!... remember, technology is supposed to HELP not hinder us.. folk too cracking shots without such aids in years past, you still can, and the diligence and discipline, and breaking the chains of being a slave to the machine rather than t'other way about; like as not to alter your way of working, and make you question even red-dot-dependency, to exploit real selective-focus with AF lenses where appropriate, deliberately NOT focusing on what the dot presumes you should!..

That little tip digested and exploited, suddenly you'll be able to get shallow focus or dissociated back-ground effects of the sort so many achieve only with ultra fast aperture primes, with pretty 'slow' lenses and a bit of old fashioned know how, AND get better shots putting the DoF where you want it rather than arbitrarily 1/3 in front 2/3 behind the red-dots presumed, target!

I've just had a practice with the helios, the range on the focus ring doesn't match up with when it's in focus, my only guess is that I have to take account of the crop factor?
I can get focus spot on using live view but no amount of diopter fiddling makes it possible through the OVF.
I always focus wide open and set exposure at the same time, then if I stop down the aperture I adjust the SS an equal amount to balance to a minimum of 80 before adjusting ISO because it's a 50mm lens.
 
I've just had a practice with the helios, the range on the focus ring doesn't match up with when it's in focus, my only guess is that I have to take account of the crop factor?
Focus is focus. Crop factor has no influence.
I can get focus spot on using live view but no amount of diopter fiddling makes it possible through the OVF.
Blame the vf.
I always focus wide open and set exposure at the same time, then if I stop down the aperture I adjust the SS an equal amount to balance to a minimum of 80 before adjusting ISO because it's a 50mm lens.
That makes sense, though you lost me towards the end - did you mean 1/80 sec?
 
Looks sharp enough to me and in focus :)
And to me! What exactly are you wanting?

On the shutter speed, the rule of thumb is a minimum shutter speed of the reciprocal of the focal length - so 1/80 for a 50mm lens on a crop factor camera is the thumb minimum - but - 1/80 seconds is difficult to hand hold for regardless of focal length. Light cameras are harder to hand hold - my Zenit E (with a Helios lens!) I could hand hold down to 1/60 seconds but that had plenty of inertia to aid me. With no image stabilisation, I would hesitate to hand hold a crop sensor digital camera below 1/125 seconds regardless of focal length..
 
And to me! What exactly are you wanting?

On the shutter speed, the rule of thumb is a minimum shutter speed of the reciprocal of the focal length - so 1/80 for a 50mm lens on a crop factor camera is the thumb minimum - but - 1/80 seconds is difficult to hand hold for regardless of focal length. Light cameras are harder to hand hold - my Zenit E (with a Helios lens!) I could hand hold down to 1/60 seconds but that had plenty of inertia to aid me. With no image stabilisation, I would hesitate to hand hold a crop sensor digital camera below 1/125 seconds regardless of focal length..
These were using the live view, so it is definitely a case of not using the OVF, it's a shame, but they are just something fun to play with so I will have to live with it.
I'm pretty sure 1/80s shouldn't be a problem handheld as I took this handheld at 25 seconds.
Long exposure Handheld by Ben Gray, on Flickr
 
If you look at the writing on the Nikon lens you photographed above, the depth of field is very small. I suspect that is a part of your problem. I wouldn't (never did) use a Helios lens wider than f/5.6.
 
If you look at the writing on the Nikon lens you photographed above, the depth of field is very small. I suspect that is a part of your problem. I wouldn't (never did) use a Helios lens wider than f/5.6.
Yeah, my light in that room is horrific, so I just played around wide open. Outside I can try closing the aperture more with better light.
 
but it wasn't bad for 25 seconds handheld.
This is taking the p*** now ;-) if we are discussing the focussing and sharpeness of the lenses in question. Maybe sell one or both and buy a tripod instead :banana:
 
This is taking the p*** now ;-) if we are discussing the focussing and sharpeness of the lenses in question. Maybe sell one or both and buy a tripod instead :banana:
I'm settled with the fact I need to use live view for manual focusing with these lenses now.
They're not worth enough for a decent tripod, and I have a cheap one already lol.
I was just illustrating that 1/80s shouldn't be an issue for me handheld, the 25s exposure was with a VR lens though so that would account for at least 3 stops.
 
I'm settled with the fact I need to use live view for manual focusing with these lenses now.
Something for me to try next time. Do you hold the camera like an eyePhone (or any phone really) with outstretched arms one hand focussing and the other hand holding the camera?
 
Silly question WRT the Helios; What sort of adapter are you using?

Most SLR lenses are 'retro-focus'; the mirror housing begs placing the lens further away from the focal plain than the actual focal length of the lens; using dedicated lenses designed for the mount, they retro-focus to account for that extra length in the mirror box.

M42 to Nikon F, though the lens is pushed further away fro the focal plane, and more by the actual adapter, acting like an extension tube; ie it can bring the ear focus closer, but you loose the ability to focus on infinity whilst calibration of the focus scale gets screwed.

Hence there are two types of M42 adaptor for M42-Nikon F; a simple adapter that has F-Mount bayonet to fit to camera, and M42 screw thread the other to take the lens. These will give you focus issues.
Other type are 'infinity corrected' and have a correction element in them; they are a lens as well as mount adapter; still have F-Bayonet on the camera side, and M42 thread lens side, but bit of glass in the middle, corrects the infinity focus adjustment, so the near focus gets pushed back in cal, and you re-gain the infinity focus of the lens.

This may account for 'some' issues.

All example shots, other than the Bubbug, are quite close focus and I presume wide aperture shots; DoF WILL be getting very very thin with them; and if you are close focusing off-scale from lack of infinity correction, even more so, and they aren't 'really' such a great example of the 'problem'.

As to the shutter speed suggestion? old rule of thumb was 1/focal length for hand holding. On a zoom, that tends to be longer and less steady with extra length in the lens, regardless of the focal length set, suggestion was to err towards 1/max focal length, even if shooting at the wide end of it.

But it IS merely a rule of thumb. I have done a shutter-speed limbo with the 18-55 with my daughter, when she was starting her O-Level course; I could hand hold at a subject distance of about four-feet, down to around 1/8s and VR made no discernible difference. Daughter was learning and getting down to around 1/30th maybe 1/15th; O/H 'shaky hands' struggled to get beneath 1/50th! And VF really DID help her get even that low! So the 'rule' isn't hard; camera holding technique, and knowing how steady your hand is; knowing your lens and how low you can go is what matters.

As to the cop factor? Err... yeah... if you start with the rule-of-thumb as guide, then erring on the side of effective focal length to push the shutter speed up does make some sens; especially working with manual focus non VF lenses; B-U-T the lens is still the same physical size, the 'balance' of the camera isn't effected by the crop factor, and unless you are using very long lenses, like my '300mm true-focal length prime; you aren't pushing the balance that much further forwards, and the framing shouldn't be getting 'that' much tighter.... within the limits of how well the rule of thumb 'holds' anyway; the effect of the crop factor probably does't meed to be given much consideration knowing your shutter-speed limbo limits with any lens, make mockery of it anyway, and by the time you are pushing the margins with very long high effective mag lenses, the rule was probably starting to fall down anyway. Probably more signifcant if using legacy lenses on MFT with even greater CF and a lighter camera in the 'dumbbell', more so still, on a micro-sensor bridge with enormous effective reach from bult in super-zoom lens, at greater zoom's.. but... matter of understanding the 'principle' not following the rule to the letter!

BUT, last message somewhat lost; you are still trying to focus with the view-finder & screen! BREAK the dependency! 'Just for Fun' grab a tape measure; grab a chair or something, stick camera on the tripod the back garden; use chair as subject... sit on it if you have a remote! Using the Helios; try focusing 'blind' by guessing the focus distance and shooting to scale NO PEEKING! Do that for a few different subject ranges; then try again, doing it with a tape measure... see how accurate your focus scale may be, with or without infinity corrected adapter.

Then go back to your holly shot; camera on tripod again; and using the DoF brackets, pull focus close, and push it far with a wide aperture; then JUST to humor me... try setting a more moderate aperture, say f8.and pull the focus forward almost as far as it'll come, about 55mm looking at my Helios!.. then work it back until you get the Dof dropping off behind your holly where it is in your example shot, but observe the near leaves stay in the DoF zone.. again, do it BLIND to the scale, DONT PEEK... get a series showing the DoF zone shift; master the machine, don't let it master you! Learn how little you need 'rely' on the aids they cram into them all, and how you can exploit NOT doing what the camera tells you!

Just for fun:-
11690-1432940909-0bf505b9fcdd7e1d0cc908858f38ecf9.jpg

I took that completely 'blind' with my little XA2 film camera; Black thing i the corner is the saddle bag on my motorbike, I was riding! Shot with the camera in my left hand, under my arm-pit; whilst watching the road as I rode, NOT looking through the camera at all!

YOU DON'T have to look through the peep-hole or obsess at whats on the screen! Worry about what's going on in the real world!!!

72432_567372049954383_1824652637_n.jpg


Whole set, there were shot with Pops old Zone Focus Retinette, with NO focus aids, not even an accessory range finder; focus entirely by guesstimate of range set on the focus scale, with a little judgement how much DoF I needed around it!

You DON'T need to get paranoid about what you 'see' through the view-finder! Worry about what is going on in the real world!
 
Definitely don't have an infinity adjusted adapter, so that is probably the main issue with the helios. I will however, play around with guessing the focus and working out how far out the rangefinder on the lens is so I can focus that way and compose with the viewfinder. I have literally used the lens for one day, so I will learn the DoF range as I spend more time with it, I will certainly have to close the aperture down when focusing close, as these test shots have shown how narrow it is close when wide open.
 
As with most things, it is down to practice. Focus very slowly, focus slightly beyond what looks to be best focus, focus back slightly and slowly.

This. As someone that mainly manually focuses, you pick it up over time. If shooting people focus on the eyes.

On something like the Nikon, it will mostly be trial and error. It is easier on vintage cameras and on mirrorless cameras to manually focus, as they make it a lot easier.
 
This. As someone that mainly manually focuses, you pick it up over time. If shooting people focus on the eyes.

On something like the Nikon, it will mostly be trial and error. It is easier on vintage cameras and on mirrorless cameras to manually focus, as they make it a lot easier.
I've found that live view on the lcd is easier than using the OVF, which is essentially aping the EVF on a mirrorless system.
 
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