Manual Flash Help...Im new to all this light stuff!

Mongwopman said:
No, I was not going to use Exp.Compensation, however when looking through the view finder, and pressing the shutter half down, it indicates that little arrow to be off the left hand side of the scale. I thought that gave an indication as to the how far off the exposure is, Im guessing that it's reading the ambient light and that I can zero/centre it by changing the shutter?
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Here earlier where I gave a full explanation of ambient vs flash and they're 2 different exposures!
clue - your camera's meter is metering the ambient.
Phil V said:
Firstly if you're using Flash - forget AV. When you're shooting with flash you need to be aware of 2 exposures.
The ambient exposure - which may be a a stop above the flash exposure for daylit shots (flash as fill light), or a stop under for inside shots to give some atmosphere - or completely underexposed so as not to interfere - as with studio portraits. Outside - you could use AV, but generally I'd advise M for balancing flash. All of the above guides can be adjusted to taste.

The flash exposure requires you to have a shutter speed low enough for the camera to see all of the flash - typically between 1/100 and 1/200* but as long as it's less than that by not too much you're fine.
....more on the original post, if you need it.
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If your ambient is more than 3 stops under, it's effectively not recorded on your image.
 
Ok, well when I meter for the ambient it says it's WAY under exposed like off the scale, so if i bump the shutter speed up it only comes right when I am in like 2 or 3 second shutter speeds.

I'll have a double check tonight and play around but thats what i was getting last night.

Wonder if i shouldnt just go and get a fully compatable flash.
 
Mongwopman said:
Ok, well when I meter for the ambient it says it's WAY under exposed like off the scale, so if i bump the shutter speed up it only comes right when I am in like 2 or 3 second shutter speeds.

I'll have a double check tonight and play around but thats what i was getting last night.

Wonder if i shouldnt just go and get a fully compatable flash.
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This really depends on what it is you're trying to do.

I'm afraid there's too much 'what the light measures' and too little 'what I'd like to achieve', in your posts. And you're suffering from only listening to the advice that makes it look easy - several people told you that shooting Manual flash is about the hardest way to get results, but as you chose this path you need to read up and grasp the nettle.

If the only source of illumination you're interested in is your flash - then the ambient measurement doesn't matter at all - just get on with controlling your flash with a low ISO and 1/160 shutter speed.

If you want to balance your flash with ambient, then you start juggling - it's difficult but not impossible. Here's a couple of scenarios:

If you're indoors and balancing against indoor tungsten lighting, then you'll probably want your flash to be the primary source of illumination - so you'll set your camera with a high ISO, and a comfortably long shutter speed, maybe 1/60, hopefully getting somewhere near 1 stop underexposed on the ambient. Then you calculate your flash exposure to the resulting ISO / aperture. This will give you a perfectly exposed flashlit subject, with an underexposed background that has a warm colour cast*.

If you're outdoors and want to add some fill flash with the sun, you'll need to lower your ISO and close your aperture down to get to a flash sync speed. You'll then need loads more flash power and aim for about 1/2 a stop under for the flash**.

It's all relatively simple until:
* You don't like the colour of the light on the background - so you gel your flash to match the ambient and then choose a WB to match.

** You want to overpower the sun to give a nice modern dramatic look to the light to make the most of the sky.
 
Thanks for the informative post Phil. I totally understand what you saying.

Having done alot of reading etc, I now understand that depending on what im trying to achieve there are 2 exposures, flash and ambient. Both need to be metered for depending on what im trying to achieve.

I guess my venture into flash is because I want to branch out and not focus on only doing landscapes and also photograph people, and I had always thought that shooting people = flash important. I can see that I was wrong and that one does not always need flash, however saying that, using flash fill could also come in handy in certain scenarios when shooting landscapes.

At the moment my portraits are outdoors and not studio work. I dont have any equipment for studio work although will be investing in the near future. So getting to grips with flash or at least a little understand was/is my goal for now.

At the moment my portraits just dont seem to "work" for me, flat, not sharp as I like, and lacking. I had read that by using flash one could produce images with more pop and also better sharpness, perhaps I was mislead?

I feel that perhaps my flash outfit currently is not up to scratch as it does not even feature high speed sync.

So with that in mind I am going to flog it off and get something a little more updated, which leads me to my next question :

Do I go for a Canon brand ie the 430EX II or do is it ok to go for the Yongnuo YN560 II which is a quarter of the price?

Thanks for your patience and advice, It is really appreciated.
 
Mongwopman said:
I guess my venture into flash is because I want to branch out and not focus on only doing landscapes and also photograph people, and I had always thought that shooting people = flash important. I can see that I was wrong and that one does not always need flash, however saying that, using flash fill could also come in handy in certain scenarios when shooting landscapes.

At the moment my portraits are outdoors and not studio work. I dont have any equipment for studio work although will be investing in the near future. So getting to grips with flash or at least a little understand was/is my goal for now.
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I'm no landscape expert, and I'm not really familiar with flash being used in landscape photography, with the exception of light painting, does that even count as landscape photography? I have no idea!

Mongwopman said:
At the moment my portraits just dont seem to "work" for me, flat, not sharp as I like, and lacking. I had read that by using flash one could produce images with more pop and also better sharpness, perhaps I was mislead?
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I'd have to see some of your work to help with that, all photography can be improved by improving the quality of light. As always, it's about what you want to achieve.

Mongwopman said:
I feel that perhaps my flash outfit currently is not up to scratch as it does not even feature high speed sync.

So with that in mind I am going to flog it off and get something a little more updated, which leads me to my next question :

Do I go for a Canon brand ie the 430EX II or do is it ok to go for the Yongnuo YN560 II which is a quarter of the price?

Thanks for your patience and advice, It is really appreciated.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go for the Yongnuo, because it's not 100% compatible, perhaps a Nissin or a 550ex? More expensive though.

And although Manual flash can be difficult, ETTL has its faults too, sometimes we go to manual flash to overcome these issues.

Sorry it's not straightforward.
 
Forgot to add, despite what I've said about Manual flash being difficult, many of us still consider it worth learning, you'll find almost all of the best flash enhanced work was done with Manually adjusted flash.

ETTL takes lots of learning too if you want to produce outstanding work.

I want to produce outstanding work..... And after 30 years I'm still some way off.
 
Danzaroonie said:
This might assist you with basics...

http://www.adorama.com/alc/0012821/article/On-Camera-Flash-Basics-AdoramaTV

Rule of Thumb for flash...

Aperture controls amount of light from the flash... (higher the aperture number more light from the flash required)

Shutter speed controls the ambient light..(slower the shutter more ambient light)

The above applies for indoors and out, thou depending on how sunny it is you need to use High-speed sync for high shutter speeds.(review this later get the basics down first)
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This wrong. Aperture controls both ambient and flash.
 
The23rdman said:
This wrong. Aperture controls both ambient and flash.
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I'm always in two minds with this rule - yes it's technically wrong, but it's also a good rule of thumb for beginners, especially if they're learning indoors, as it only really "falls down" when you have bright ambient.

As with a lot of things, telling white lies along the way, then explaining why they're not the real picture, is sometimes the best way to learn.
 
But it's plainly the wrong info and easy to prove so. Every photographer understands that opening or closing the aperture lets in more or less light so once you explain that there are two exposures going on and how each works it's relatively easy to learn the basics without having to relearn all over again.
 
The23rdman said:
This wrong. Aperture controls both ambient and flash.
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Yes, it is wrong really. It's an old film shooting short-hand when, because ISO is fixed by the film type, there is only shutter speed and aperture to play with. So it kinda makes sense to say that shutter speed controls ambient and aperture controls flash exposure.

The only strict truth is that shutter speed does not effect flash exposure, but everything else effects everything else!
 
HoppyUK said:
The only strict truth is that shutter speed does not effect flash exposure, but everything else effects everything else!
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Unless you go over your sync speed :bonk:
 
Phil V said:
I'm no landscape expert, and I'm not really familiar with flash being used in landscape photography, with the exception of light painting, does that even count as landscape photography? I have no idea!
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Flash is used as fill flash to lighten forground interest and push shadows away.


Phil V said:
I'd have to see some of your work to help with that, all photography can be improved by improving the quality of light. As always, it's about what you want to achieve.
Click to expand...

I'll see if I can get an image up for you to look at.

Phil V said:
I wouldn't go for the Yongnuo, because it's not 100% compatible, perhaps a Nissin or a 550ex? More expensive though.
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Any particular model nissin? 550ex is out of my budget range at the moment. So it would have to be 430ex II or an equivalent model in Nissin.

Phil V said:
And although Manual flash can be difficult, ETTL has its faults too, sometimes we go to manual flash to overcome these issues.

Sorry it's not straightforward.
Click to expand...

I've read how ETTL can cause some issues and not expose properly.
 
The23rdman said:
But it's plainly the wrong info and easy to prove so. Every photographer understands that opening or closing the aperture lets in more or less light so once you explain that there are two exposures going on and how each works it's relatively easy to learn the basics without having to relearn all over again.
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I total agree when your not using a manual power source to light the subject, but in this case even when you change the aperture you should balancing the power of flash to still keep the subject lit.....that’s what I have been made to believe (now I’m doubting the info I have read :thinking: - Mr Bryan Peterson ….)
 
Danzaroonie said:
I total agree when your not using a manual power source to light the subject, but in this case even when you change the aperture you should balancing the power of flash to still keep the subject lit.....that’s what I have been made to believe (now I’m doubting the info I have read :thinking: - Mr Bryan Peterson ….)
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I always use a manual power source and you are correct proving my point. If you change the aperture and you wish to maintain the flash exposure and the ambient exposure then you need to go as many clicks in the opposite direction with shutter speed to do so and adjust the flash power. It's like a dance. :)
 
Mongwopman said:
Any particular model nissin? 550ex is out of my budget range at the moment. So it would have to be 430ex II or an equivalent model in Nissin.
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The nissin di866 is similar in spec to the 580ex, costing a similar price to a s/h 550 or less than a 430ex.

Mongwopman said:
I've read how ETTL can cause some issues and not expose properly.
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the first thing with ETTL is to set the flash metering to average, then most other metering problems can be overcome with FEC.

However, the longer recycle times are a pain in the a r s e.
 
I don't consider myself a flash expert, but I'm happy to help with the straightforward stuff.
 
Anybody got experience with the Nissin di866 pro?

Having bought and received it, it seem to be quite bad, the flash is producing images that are severely underexposed, on Auto, TTL and Av mode. When I do manual the it's really bright, and overexposed. Even iff i do a FEC value of +3, it's stays the same.

Here are some examples :

1st. Standard, no flash Av at F8
_MG_3108.jpg


TTL mode on flash, camer in Av at f8
_MG_3096.jpg


Flash in Auto, camera in Av at f8
_MG_3095.jpg


Notice how their is no change? Cam can be in Av or Tv mode, makes no difference. High Speed sync makes no difference.

Nissin Di866 Pro on Canon EOS 600D.

Any ideas?
 
Shoot a normal subject (not a bright white one that will naturally lead to under exposure) and do it at a sensible distance.

If that doesn't sort it, make sure you're operating everything correctly* ;)

It that doesn't work, check compatability with your camera model.

* How are you lighting that shot? Some strange shadows going on... :thinking:
 
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Remember the bit about the camera needing to be in Manual mode to balance (or for the flash to overpower) the ambient.

The battery is a little close for a flash calibration shot. Try a toy about head size and a reasonable shooting distance (5 feet) - Macro flash (close up) is an entirely different discipline to standard distance flash.

For the toy; Try ISO 200, 1/100 and 5.6 and leave the flash on ETTL. That'll give you a flash lit shot. Make sure your ETTL metering is set as centre-weighted, it's a custom function - ETTL wants to use a metering based around the focus point and it's rarely useful in real life.

With those settings and distance, you should see the difference you can make by bouncing the flash (ceiling / wall / reflector) and using some FEC. Then you can incrementally open the aperture and up the ISO and see where the ambient creeps in with it's own exposure.
Hope that helps.

edit. OOPS hadn't seen Richards post.
 
Done as you have said phil and the images come out....BLACK! Set a bottle up on a wooden table and entered settings as you stated. Stood opposite end of the room and black, continued working forward and all remains black.

Just dont understand it! When I go back to Av mode on the cam, flash fires but just looks like normal ambient light. Even if I + or - the FEB.
 
Mongwopman said:
Done as you have said phil and the images come out....BLACK! Set a bottle up on a wooden table and entered settings as you stated. Stood opposite end of the room and black, continued working forward and all remains black.

Just dont understand it! When I go back to Av mode on the cam, flash fires but just looks like normal ambient light. Even if I + or - the FEB.
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Do you have it in master mode with master flash off? It would look like it's flashing, but all you're getting is the pre-flash and no main flash.
 
Like Richard said - and check the custom settings on the camera too. You can switch off the flash in a couple of different ways on the camera - but it doesn't explain why it'd work in AV? Are you sure you've got the shutter speed at 1/100 not 1/1000? Because shooting AV would ensure a slow shutter speed.

Either way you need it fixed and working to get an exposure before you change distance / FEC etc.
 
Also double check the flash is slid all the way home. My wife always half puts the flash on.
 
Nope, even after dowble checking, The flash is massively underexposed.

Been through all the settings on the flash and the only thing I can find which relates to master is the in the wireless section, which I am not using.

There is a sub-flash option but that is set to off. Even if on, it's the same.

Pulling my hair out here!
 
Definitely no FEC set?

No chance you've enabled FEL and you're activating it?
 
Mongwopman said:
Nope, even after dowble checking, The flash is massively underexposed.

Been through all the settings on the flash and the only thing I can find which relates to master is the in the wireless section, which I am not using.
There is a sub-flash option but that is set to off. Even if on, it's the same.

Pulling my hair out here!
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Sorry to go on, but you've not said specifically. Have you checked that the master control and main flash off are not enabled accidentally? The fact that you're not using it as a master won't make any difference - the gun doesn't know that.
 
Try another example test shot.....

Set the following...

- Camera to manual mode.
- set you metering to centre weight
- look through the view finder and point the centre AF point at something in the background of the subject
- now adjust Aperture/Shutter settings to get around -2 stop under normal exposure. (Note if the shutter speed is dropping below 1/60 then up the ISO.) This has now set you camera to Expose for the ambient light.
- Set flash to manual mode..
- Now the power setting you need to play around with or you move further or closer to the subject...Test shots will help confirm if you need/want to up the power of the flash or move closer or further way...
- If want to bounce the flash off a wall or ceiling the you will need to up the power of the flash to compensate for the light hitting the wall/celling..

see what results you get with them steps...and if I have missed anything I’m sure somebody will jump in and correct me..

Dan.
 
Right, So tried doing nother test, here are results.

_MG_3158.jpg

1/50
F5.6
ISO 100
Manual Mode
Flash Manual

_MG_3159.jpg

1/20
F5.6
ISO 100
Av mode, both Camera and Flash

_MG_3160.jpg

1/20
F5.6
ISO 100
Manual Mode Camera
Auto Flash

_MG_3161.jpg

1/20
F5.6
ISO 100
Manual Mode Camera
TTL mode Flash

_MG_3162.jpg

1/60
F4.0
ISO 100
Program AE Camera
Auto Flash

_MG_3164.jpg

1/100
F5.6
ISO 400
Scene Intelligent Mode
Auto Flash

Now to me, best images are the last 2 whwhen the camera is almost in full auto! If I duplicate the settings to manual and take a the same shot....looks plain ambient.

:shrug:
 
This one:

1/20
F5.6
ISO 100
Manual Mode Camera
TTL mode Flash

Looks fine to me, and is what you should be using if you want to use ETTL. Looking at the Nissin site, putting the flash in "Auto" uses the brain in the flash to determine exposure, rather than using ETTL. For automatic flash exposure, keep the camera in Manual or Av, the flash in ETTL, and shoot - experimenting with FEC and FEL depending on the conditions/subject and try switching between average and evaluative flash.

For manual flash exposure keep the camera in Manual or Av, the flash in manual, and adjust the power yourself.
 
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