Beginner MANUAL EXPOSURE HELP PLEASE!

Lauren Neal said:
Yeah, i don't think my tutor is saying "you will always get 100% correct exposure using manual etc" i think he is just trying to teach me in small steps. If i can understand how to zero the meter in manual and understand the affects on the photo in terms of s/s and ap. relationships, i can then move on to the next thing and the next thing etc. It's just learning the basics and moving up and becoming more technically minded and specific in my choice of settings as i get more experience.

Thanks everyone though, i really appreciate all the feedback and advice!
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Of course you're right Lauren and I'm a tit.
It's easy for us to forget what it's like learning the basics from scratch.
I learned on a camera that didn't have a manual 'mode', it was just completely mechanical. I drop into M when the need arises without a thought, but having an amazing auto camera means I get the hump at 'manual' purists.
Don't let it put you off, keep learning and keep coming back for help when you need it.
 
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Nawty said:
For if you're using manual and auto ISO, which can be fantastically useful in some circumstances for control of the creative elements yet let the camera expose - Canon don't do this (and nor do Olympus :()
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Canon do it in some cameras - I have it on my 7D2, and very useful it is, too.
 
I think it's easy for us to forget the basics we learnt years ago, now we just do it. You have understand the exposure relationships then you will be able to expose correctly for moving subjects stationary ones contrast.
 
MadWoman said:
Canon do it in some cameras - I have it on my 7D2, and very useful it is, too.
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Only in a couple I'm not sure about the new 5d's but the 1dx and 7d2 have it.

Frankly auto ISO in Manual is useless without.
 
I'm really enjoying using my Fuji X-T1 at the moment shooting in manual, I can dial up or down the speed, aperture, EV and ISO and view the outcome 'live' in the the large cinematic viewfinder - it's like viewing your image on a cinema screen !

It's not that I'm a manual 'purist' it's just that it's easier to see the final outcome 'live' and seeing the changes in real time as you turn the dials. Shooting in RAW and JPEG also gives me more versatility later.

Whilst you can get the same result on the viewfinder screen I choose not too. It's a whole different experience to my D750 / D810.

Photographically, I've gone full-circle. I started out using manual controls and I'm doing it again on the X-T1. As far as my Nikons are concerned I mainly shoot in Shutter / Aperture mode but prefer manual ISO rather than auto ISO. The skill with using auto modes is to understand when they won't work for and when they will work against you.
 
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Okay, without me having to find and read the manual, how do I adjust Exposure compensation on the 7DII in manual mode?

I'm in manual mode, I can adjust shutter, aperture and I'm on Auto ISO, but for the life of me I can not find any button or dial that changes exposure compensation.

Edit: I've now found I can do it by pressing Q (looking at the display and adjusting it that way. Is that the only way?

I'm still not convinced by this. Help me out please.
There are three points to the exposure triangle. A, S and ISO correct?

So, In manual mode I set me shutter to 200th sec and Aperture to F16, this gives me (in my instance) an auto ISO of 12800. Via the Q button I can adjust the Exposure compensation by up to 5 stops and yet the shutter remains at 200th sec, the aperture remains at F16 and the ISO remains at 12800. The difference between the images is certainly not 5 stops. So it seems I hit a barrier when over exposing the image using exposure compensation.

Now If I go the other way and apply negative EV then all that happens is my ISO drops. So back to my original questions what is the point of exposure compensation in manual mode when all that is really happening is the ISO is dropping. I could change that anyway.
 
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I don't want to hijack the thread, so just a quick answer. I have my exposure compensation set to be changed by pressing Set and turning the MnFn wheel, and that works in every mode. In M with auto ISO, the exposure exposure compensation changes the ISO, so if you are at 12800 already, the camera can't make it any higher. You say you can change it anyway, but the same argument could be used against any sort of auto ISO. I find it very useful when I am in a hide with varying light levels, and I want a reasonable depth of field and a good shutter speed, so I set the aperture and shutter speed, leave auto ISO on with a set upper limit, and use exposure compensation as normal.
 
If you have auto ISO enable you are not in full manual mode.
 
MadWoman said:
I don't want to hijack the thread, so just a quick answer. I have my exposure compensation set to be changed by pressing Set and turning the MnFn wheel, and that works in every mode. In M with auto ISO, the exposure exposure compensation changes the ISO, so if you are at 12800 already, the camera can't make it any higher. You say you can change it anyway, but the same argument could be used against any sort of auto ISO. I find it very useful when I am in a hide with varying light levels, and I want a reasonable depth of field and a good shutter speed, so I set the aperture and shutter speed, leave auto ISO on with a set upper limit, and use exposure compensation as normal.
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This
Your test was flawed because you were at the ISO ceiling, try the test in more ordinary conditions.
 
ecoleman said:
Now If I go the other way and apply negative EV then all that happens is my ISO drops. So back to my original questions what is the point of exposure compensation in manual mode when all that is really happening is the ISO is dropping. I could change that anyway.
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Not whilst keeping auto ISO.

The 'problem' this fixes needs to be understood. In Manual mode with a fixed ISO, you can deliberately underexposed or overexpose (on the meter) to get your chosen exposure. But as soon as you use Auto ISO you have to accept a zeroed meter reading, thereby rendering auto ISO unusable with Manual exposure.

Being able to set exp comp in Manual makes Auto ISO usable. It's genius, Nikon have had it for years Canonare just starting with it.
 
Phil V said:
Not whilst keeping auto ISO.

The 'problem' this fixes needs to be understood. In Manual mode with a fixed ISO, you can deliberately underexposed or overexpose (on the meter) to get your chosen exposure. But as soon as you use Auto ISO you have to accept a zeroed meter reading, thereby rendering auto ISO unusable with Manual exposure.

Being able to set exp comp in Manual makes Auto ISO usable. It's genius, Nikon have had it for years Canonare just starting with it.
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I'll have a play this weekend. Something new to get my head around :)
 
I'm another fan of auto ISO with compensation in manual exposure mode :D

I tend to use aperture priority with auto ISO until the light level drops to the point that the camera sets the shutter speed too low. In shutter priority I'd have the problem of the camera selecting the widest aperture so instead I switch to manual mode and set the aperture and shutter speed I want and use compensation as I see fit.

I love this and I really miss it when using a camera that can't do it.
 
woof woof said:
I'm another fan of auto ISO with compensation in manual exposure mode :D

I tend to use aperture priority with auto ISO until the light level drops to the point that the camera sets the shutter speed too low. In shutter priority I'd have the problem of the camera selecting the widest aperture so instead I switch to manual mode and set the aperture and shutter speed I want and use compensation as I see fit.

I love this and I really miss it when using a camera that can't do it.
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I haven't got a camera with it. :(
I'm too an AV shooter by nature, and an Auto ISO convert only on the 6d (all my older Canon cameras have rubbish auto ISO), the only time the 6d comes off Auto ISO is to use Manual with flash, no camera could predict what I'd like to do at that point. o_O
 
Horses for courses, but I don't understand why If you're cable of seeing and reacting to the light change and can read a meter and are shooting in manual use Auto ISO? Just press the ISO button turn the command wheel and set it manually. (It's that simple on Nikons and no doubt Canons too), Surely even semi-experienced photographers can look at a subject, know what they want to achieve and know the appropriate ISO to use without even turning the camera on, picking it up and looking at the meter ?
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Horses for courses, but I don't understand why If you're cable of seeing and reacting to the light change and can read a meter and are shooting in manual use Auto ISO? Just press the ISO button turn the command wheel and set it manually. (It's that simple on Nikons and no doubt Canons too), Surely even semi-experienced photographers can look at a subject, know what they want to achieve and know the appropriate ISO to use without even turning the camera on, picking it up and looking at the meter ?
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If you don't see the benefit of Auto ISO then don't use it, but lots of people do use it, and it's a great function.

I remember when 'changing ISO' meant loading a different film back or changing cameras, but technology moves on, and now we have the ability to shoot with our chosen settings in an ISO neutral environment which is bloody marvelous IMHO. I can concentrate on the elements I care about without worrying about changing the ISO to keep up with changing light levels. Of course changing ISO isn't difficult, but then neither was Manual focussing, or screwing a camera to a tripod, or metering hand held because there was no meter, or stop down metering etc etc. Technology incrementally makes our lives easier.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Horses for courses, but I don't understand why If you're cable of seeing and reacting to the light change and can read a meter and are shooting in manual use Auto ISO? Just press the ISO button turn the command wheel and set it manually.
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Because you don't have to do anything...
And there are numerous times where you might be photographing something stationary/predictable and unpredicted opportunity arises... for me, I will frequently be switching between front light/backlight/sun/shade, often in the matter of seconds.
 
Personally, I think learning full manual first is the best way... it's only once you understand what everything does, what the camera is doing and why, that you can actually be in control when using semi-automated modes.

A lot of people suggest starting in one of the semi-automated modes in a crawl-walk-run type of learning scheme, but I don't really think that works... you don't have to learn much of anything and people tend to get stuck there.

And a lot of people suggest learning full manual first and then they go even farther and suggest never using anything else... in some ways that's easier. You don't have to understand the complexities of your camera or keep an eye on what it's doing. But IMO it's kind of silly... you pay a lot of money for a lot of very smart features that can make your life easier. Why not use them?

What I actually thinks happens to a lot of people is that they start with automated modes and are kind of lost... then they eventually learn manual mode and all sorts of lightbulbs go off and they now "have control." And then they become "manual only" converts.
 
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Phil V said:
If you don't see the benefit of Auto ISO then don't use it, but lots of people do use it, and it's a great function.

I remember when 'changing ISO' meant loading a different film back or changing cameras, but technology moves on, and now we have the ability to shoot with our chosen settings in an ISO neutral environment which is bloody marvelous IMHO. I can concentrate on the elements I care about without worrying about changing the ISO to keep up with changing light levels. Of course changing ISO isn't difficult, but then neither was Manual focussing, or screwing a camera to a tripod, or metering hand held because there was no meter, or stop down metering etc etc. Technology incrementally makes our lives easier.
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All fair points and I remember the film days too, the frequency In which I used film changing the ISO mid-role wasn't really an issue and changing film backs just saved time at weddings and other shoots.

My main issue with using Auto ISO is that by placing reliance on the cameras meter you can get overexposure if the meter gets confused in certain lighting situations. Although technology is useful it's not completely inflatable but like any auto mode knowing and understanding when to use it snd when to turn it off helps As I said earlier, horses for courses :)
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Horses for courses, but I don't understand why If you're cable of seeing and reacting to the light change and can read a meter and are shooting in manual use Auto ISO? Just press the ISO button turn the command wheel and set it manually. (It's that simple on Nikons and no doubt Canons too), Surely even semi-experienced photographers can look at a subject, know what they want to achieve and know the appropriate ISO to use without even turning the camera on, picking it up and looking at the meter ?
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It can work in situation like shooting wedding in church and following them as they walk outside into very bright day. You can go from 12k iso to 100 in a matter of seconds and this auto iso can help.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
My main issue with using Auto ISO is that by placing reliance on the cameras meter you can get overexposure if the meter gets confused in certain lighting situations.
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You're always reliant on the meter and your judgement as to whether it is right/wrong... Changing the ISO is simple in either mode, and EC is probably easier than ISO on most cameras. If things are calm/consistent it's not like auto ISO causes the ISO to jump all over the place, randomly changing the exposure settings. The camera picks the settings (you allow it to), and then you can change them.

It's really no different. In one mode you start with a zeroed meter and adjust if desired, in the other you start with an off centered meter and adjust if desired.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
All fair points and I remember the film days too, the frequency In which I used film changing the ISO mid-role wasn't really an issue and changing film backs just saved time at weddings and other shoots.

My main issue with using Auto ISO is that by placing reliance on the cameras meter you can get overexposure if the meter gets confused in certain lighting situations. Although technology is useful it's not completely inflatable but like any auto mode knowing and understanding when to use it snd when to turn it off helps As I said earlier, horses for courses :)
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Not at all. Like all 'auto' modes, it doesn't mean you switch your brain off.
Seriously I don't need to shoot Manual and have the meter needle sway about to tell me I'm looking at backlight or into shadows or that the light has changed. Auto modes (PAS) should and do offer as much control as Manual, if someone is struggling with that concept, they haven't really grasped what the modes do.
What is the difference between shooting a backlit scene with a stop and a half over in Manual, or in PAS with exp comp or having used exp lock? Nothing, absolutely none at all, so what difference does it make whether I shoot in AV or Manual? AV is slightly quicker. There's no other difference, so why would we make life harder/slower?

Likewise Auto ISO, I shoot AV, I'm shooting a couple at 85mm f4 inside the Church (the camera is holding me a minimum SS of 1/250), as we walk outside, I can just keep shooting, I know the light level has changed, but my exposures will be fine because the camera is looking after me, if I pick up my 2nd body with a wider lens and the sky is a large part of the frame I just need to react to that and lock my exposure as I'm lifting to frame my shot. I'm still concerned about my exposures being correct - but it takes less controls to get to exactly the same place.
 
Most automatic modes are a compromise. Questions I ask myself, what's the lowest amount of noise I want (my personal preference is low ISO to eliminate it as much as possible ) Could I use a secondary / alternative light source / tripod. It really does depend on the subject matter for example if you were shooting in a studio it would be pointless to shoot in Auto ISO when 100 ISO will suffice. I'm not against Auto modes and I do use them myself but giving thought to the three primary controls is just second nature.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Most automatic modes are a compromise. Questions I ask myself, what's the lowest amount of noise I want (my personal preference is low ISO to eliminate it as much as possible ) Could I use a secondary / alternative light source / tripod. It really does depend on the subject matter for example if you were shooting in a studio it would be pointless to shoot in Auto ISO when 100 ISO will suffice. I'm not against Auto modes and I do use them myself but giving thought to the three primary controls is just second nature.
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Auto never has to be a compromise - it's not there to make decisions, it's there to fill in the gaps after we've made a decision*.
Of course there's a time and place for everything. I would never shoot anything other than full Manual when in a studio (in fact whenever flash is my primary light source). But low ISO is rarely something I aim for, I want my shot, I want it sharp - and if it's a choice between a sharp noisy shot or a blurry clean shot, I'm going for sharp every time, I can't deliver blurry.

*with my usual Auto ISO setting, I've decided what aperture to shoot, what minimum SS to use and what Maximum ISO I'll accept before the shutter speed drops. I decide whether the situation requires me to change my mindset to add flash. There's not a single compromise being made, and all I have to do is ensure my aperture is suitable and my scene will be metered correctly, then I can concentrate on the important stuff (the subject).
 
With modern cameras there is no need to learn to shoot manual at all really, most are programable enough you can set them to think like you would and the electronics can do that much quicker than you can.

You DO need to learn exposure and you need to learn how your camera meters and you need to know to work your camera.

Over-riding your camera may be necessary some times and you learn that from understanding your camera, in those instances you can use manual mode. Typically for me that would have to be in constant lighting where I know the camera might get fooled when judging exposure AND, as I shoot mirrorless nowadays with EVF the only time this happens is with fast moving things brecause I can see the exposure/blinkies/histogram as I shoot. It is a shame that Oly don't yet offer exposure comp in manual nor programable auto ISo, those are pretty much the only things I miss from my Nikon days.
 
Phil V said:
Auto never has to be a compromise - it's not there to make decisions, it's there to fill in the gaps after we've made a decision*.
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But auto does make decisions and invariably the wrong ones at an inopportune time. The photographer fills the (knowledge) gap after the camera has made the decision based on complex algorithms. You and I react to these and can correct the mistakes that the camera wants to force upon you in auto mode. That's where our knowledge and experience comes in. Knowing when to use it and when not to.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
But auto does make decisions and invariably the wrong ones at an inopportune time. The photographer fills the (knowledge) gap after the camera has made the decision based on complex algorithms. You and I react to these and can correct the mistakes that the camera wants to force upon you in auto mode. That's where our knowledge and experience comes in. Knowing when to use it and when not to.
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You're doing it wrong then.:)
All my camera is doing is filling in the gaps. I've had Automatic cars too, and oddly they never made me do something I didn't want to do. Choosing Manual without the knowledge to drive it won't help either.

That's why my advice in Auto vs Manual discussions is always the same - it doesn't matter - what does matter is understanding what you're metering.
 
Phil V said:
That's why my advice in Auto vs Manual discussions is always the same - it doesn't matter - what does matter is understanding what you're metering.
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Agree, but it is the sensitivity of the ISO that governs the sensor. That's why it's better to be in control of the sensor rather than letting Auto ISO running away with it !

I once had a friend who accelerated into a wall, rather than braking. Just a simple mistake but the car didn't know any different ;)
 
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Blank_Canvas said:
Agree, but it is the sensitivity of the ISO that governs the meter. That's why it's better to be in control of the meter rather than letting Auto ISO running away with it !

I once had a friend who accelerated into a wall, rather than braking. Just a simple mistake but the car didn't know any different ;)
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That's not quite how it works, it's the EV that drives the meter, the variables of ISO, SS and aperture are still the same. When you pick up a camera you can choose to adjust all 3, any 2 or just 1 nowadays, the camera will make choices for the other 2 within parameters set by the user, The camera is never doing the driving, it's just filling in the gaps using pre determined choices set by the photographer.
 
Phil V said:
That's not quite how it works, it's the EV that drives the meter, the variables of ISO, SS and aperture are still the same. When you pick up a camera you can choose to adjust all 3, any 2 or just 1 nowadays, the camera will make choices for the other 2 within parameters set by the user, The camera is never doing the driving, it's just filling in the gaps using pre determined choices set by the photographer.
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A bit like synchromesh, years ago you stopped having to match revs between drive and prop and no-one seems to miss it. Nowadays cars even hold the revs for you on a downchange and no one claims that this means you can't drive.
 
Nawty said:
A bit like synchromesh, years ago you stopped having to match revs between drive and prop and no-one seems to miss it. Nowadays cars even hold the revs for you on a downchange and no one claims that this means you can't drive.
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Don't get me started on automatic ignition advance, electric starter motors, indicators etc.
We're massively detached from lots of the actions our forebears used to have to perform to drive a car, that doesn't mean that we're no longer in control, it just means that there's less things we have to consider - because the car is filling in the gaps.
 
Phil V said:
That's not quite how it works, it's the EV that drives the meter, the variables of ISO, SS and aperture are still the same. When you pick up a camera you can choose to adjust all 3, any 2 or just 1 nowadays, the camera will make choices for the other 2 within parameters set by the user, The camera is never doing the driving, it's just filling in the gaps using pre determined choices set by the photographer.
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I actually meant to say sensor, it's been a very long day ! - I've amended my original post.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
And so does mine ;)
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So you're judging auto modes based on the fact that you can't work out how to control them?

Fair enough, but you should credit others with being able to grasp technology. I'll bet it's a b****r for you trying to fit a manual choke when you buy a new car :D
 
Phil V said:
So you're judging auto modes based on the fact that you can't work out how to control them?

Fair enough, but you should credit others with being able to grasp technology. I'll bet it's a b****r for you trying to fit a manual choke when you buy a new car :D
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Phil, I know how to control auto modes but I'm not judging auto modes or anyone else's use of them. I did say horses for courses right at the beginning of my post ( in two posts actually ) It is all down to personal choice.

It's a 'given' that other people can grasp technology. After all, photography is a technical subject and the two are intrinsically linked. Most people on here are interested in the technical aspects. If you would like to nominate any particular individual for some attention, I will be happy to give them special 'credit' - personally I've never felt the need, like I said it's a 'given' ;)

As for a manual choke you'd be right I wouldn't know how too :D
 
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