Mad? I'm ****** Seething!

onefunkypenguin said:
ha ha, we have a no photography and video policy but it clearly states this at the front doors and on a couple of signs.

i disagree with this to an extent, having to go up to someone when they are the only people in the pool and ask them to not take pictures is pretty bad, especially when they are over here on holiday!
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I understand why pools have this policy, I don't agree with it but I understand why. I also think that swimming pools would be a bad place for photographers to start fighting back against this perception.
 
Auwyn said:
despite my incredulousness (I have no idea if that is a word)
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It is now!

Actually, you make very good points. :)
 
ding76uk said:
Then you will also know that incidents are lower now than they were 100 years ago, and that most cases of abuse do not happen in a public place, or by a stranger.
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Incidents of what? Child abuse has always been around. We are more aware of much of it now and that results in the reasons statistics are much higher for abuse than they were 100 years ago. Whilst I agree that most people are abused by people they know and trust, there are still some people who abuse kids previously unknown to them. I'm not a big fan of the POV that assumes because the type of abuse is statistically less than others, it is less significant (I have this argument about abuse by women on a regular basis).

I am saying that your statement, by someone who works in child protection, fuels the fires that suggest a parent taking photos of their kids at a pool is reason enough to suspect them.
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That's not what I am saying, however I just feel there are times when it is more sensible just not to insist on your rights to do something. There are good reasons why people are squeamish about photography at pools, which is a situation caused by a very small but arguably significant minority.

I am sure you have dealt with cases at a swimming pool, but if you were to list where abuse takes place it would be a long way down the list.
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Undoubtedly, however it is just as important as the abuses that are at the top of the list.
 
I do actually have photos of my daughter swimming in my local pool when she was younger. I asked the manager and agreed that I would do it ensuring I had no-one else in the picture. No problems :)
 
Auwyn said:
That's not what I am saying, however I just feel there are times when it is more sensible just not to insist on your rights to do something. There are good reasons why people are squeamish about photography at pools, which is a situation caused by a very small but arguably significant minority.
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I agree with you about them not been the place to insist on talking your rights back


Auwyn said:
Undoubtedly, however it is just as important as the abuses that are at the top of the list.
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I'm going to call you on this though. A quick google of 'child abuse in public swimming pools' turned up exactly no cases. Not even the daily mail. I know you disagree but most pool staff are vigilant and they are public and busy places, not really ideal for that sort of activity
 
boyfalldown said:
I'm going to call you on this though. A quick google of 'child abuse in public swimming pools' turned up exactly no cases. Not even the daily mail. I know you disagree but most pool staff are vigilant and they are public and busy places, not really ideal for that sort of activity
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I've been saying for a long time that the Daily Mail are not the most reliable source of anything at all.

Call what you like, to be honest. I know my experiences are anecdotal, however I have dealt with a number of cases of voyeuristic (in the main) incidents of abuse within the swimming pools local to the area I work. Whilst statistically small in terms of incidence, they are real.

People who have a sexual interest in children create opportunities to abuse. For some, the swimming pools are a good way of doing so. This in no way means that abuse at pools is rife, however due to the nature of swimming pools, children in particular are vulnerable to such attention.
 
Rokkin said:
First story out of google with 'Peeping tom'

Not quite taking pictures, but just illustrates what could happen.

Next step is to ban all males who intend to swin alone - why else would they want to swim....? :thinking:
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I was just going to post a very similar, local story. Although I can't find the original publication, I remember when it happened.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Spare...ts+court+order+to+protect+kiddies-a0190112672

(The story has inaccuracies, which highlights the need to take what the meedja says with a pinch of salt.)
 
I beg to differ. Indecent images of children are illegal the world over and google do a pretty good job (as far as is possible) to ensure they are blocked from their search engines.
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You'd be surprised at what can be classed as CP, for some merely having pictures of children, even your own nieces is enough, especially if your a middle aged single man.

I've been through this myself when taking pictures at my nieces request, of her in the local park, suffice to say the off duty copper concerned got told where to go and when he threatened me with a raid got told to go ahead and knock himself out wasting police time.

My little brother sadly didn't get out of things so lightly.
What you have to realise is the mentality of these people will not allow them to accept anything that does not agree with their initial assessment.
My brother was a junkie, he did a deal on behalf of some other guys who then refused to pay him, he lent on them and found himself falsely accused of flashing one of the guys daughter.
Before it was reported to the police it went all round our town and the aggro started, the police arrested him.
The police completely cleared him not least because on the day of the offence he was filmed by and undercover unit staking out the dealers he bought from, so he wasn't even in our town on the day of the supposed offence.
Even though this was told to the public, they didn't let up, he was beaten by two guys with baseball bats so hard his blood was on the ceiling of his hall !!, he was constantly threatened and told he would be killed, whilst staying at my parents for his safety his flat was broken into and set on fire, destroying his lounge completely.
He spent the last year of his life, with it under constant threat, the police did nothing, arrested no one and finally after nearly two years of this he killed himself because they where now threatening to harm his own daughter and he just couldn't take it any more.
That was 8 yrs ago, I raised his daughter who is now 21, but misses her dad every day...

So false accusations are extremely serious in my book and I can understand the man walking away from his hobby rather than face what this lot are like around here.
 
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Just to add another dimension to the discussion: I went to a re-enactment at a National Trust property, featuring this lot http://www.thesealedknot.org.uk/.

Before the battle started, some of the troops were teaching the spectators' kids how to use a pike and musket. One of the parents came up to me and asked me to take some shots of his daughter (aged about 5) dressed up as a mini pikewoman - so I did. Afterwards, the dad and I swapped addresses etc and I sent him a picture CD the next week. He was absolutely delighted - so was the little girl and so was her mum.
 
iancandler said:
You'd be surprised at what can be classed as CP, for some merely having pictures of children, even your own nieces is enough, especially if your a middle aged single man.

I've been through this myself when taking pictures at my nieces request, of her in the local park, suffice to say the off duty copper concerned got told where to go and when he threatened me with a raid got told to go ahead and knock himself out wasting police time.

My little brother sadly didn't get out of things so lightly.
What you have to realise is the mentality of these people will not allow them to accept anything that does not agree with their initial assessment.
My brother was a junkie, he did a deal on behalf of some other guys who then refused to pay him, he lent on them and found himself falsely accused of flashing one of the guys daughter.
Before it was reported to the police it went all round our town and the aggro started, the police arrested him.
The police completely cleared him not least because on the day of the offence he was filmed by and undercover unit staking out the dealers he bought from, so he wasn't even in our town on the day of the supposed offence.
Even though this was told to the public, they didn't let up, he was beaten by two guys with baseball bats so hard his blood was on the ceiling of his hall !!, he was constantly threatened and told he would be killed, whilst staying at my parents for his safety his flat was broken into and set on fire, destroying his lounge completely.
He spent the last year of his life, with it under constant threat, the police did nothing, arrested no one and finally after nearly two years of this he killed himself because he they where now threatening to harm his own daughter and he just couldn't take it any more.
That was 8 yrs ago, I raised his daughter who is now 21, but misses her dad every day...

So false accusations are extremely serious in my book and I can understand the man walking away from his hobby rather than face what this lot are like around here.
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holy hell.. :eek:

sorry to hear that matey..
 
Auwyn said:
I've been saying for a long time that the Daily Mail are not the most reliable source of anything at all.
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my daily mail comment was intended in a tongue in cheek way. I know they're crap but they are also the worst kind of scare mongers
 
iancandler said:
.......
So false accusations are extremely serious in my book and I can understand the man walking away from his hobby rather than face what this lot are like around here.
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Sort of puts it into context really
So so sorry, makes me embarrased to be English, it really does.:shake:
 
to be honest with all this swimming pool business I think you're all missing the original point - it is the sheer ignorance and rudeness of some people, not that they challenge people in the first place.
After something bad has happened to a kid people are quick to point fingers and say oh no one did anything about it, no one was vigilant or asked questions.
However in a situation like this its not about what you are asking but how you are asking it - how dare someone come up to someone in the street and accuse them of being a P**** just because they have a big camera? perhaps if someone were to do that to me I would counter accuse them of being a child beater because their kid has a bruise on their leg (which small kids often get of course) - the accusation is just as serious and just as unfounded.

However if I was taking pictures of my son and someone came to me and said umm look I'm a bit worried about this and a bit ignorant of why you need a big camera to take pictures I would carefully explain to them the virtues of an SLR, that a 50mm can't zoom and thus even less suited to 'spying' than a regular compact, show them the pictures of my son on the camera to show the innocence of them, and perhaps persuede them to join the SLR club too :naughty:
However if at that point I acted shiftily or defensively and been like err no go away how dare you it's none of your business what I'm doing then ok alarm bells start ringing.
If they approached me nicely and politely I would respond in a polite firm manner than my intentions are innocent and I am nothing more than a proud parent trying to get the best possible pictures of my child growing up, and in return they would hopefully be reasonable. If they came up all guns blazing, they should expect a full on **** off. That's just not on, and if the togger in OP's post was subject to this without provication I feel very sorry for him, a reasonable adult conversation could have averted all of this.

It works both ways, polite asking, polite response - you shouldn't have to prove your innocence but at the same time you gotta realise people are ignorant and scared of what they don't know about, especially if it concerns their offspring.

and on a final note - whilst I can't really say I 'blame' the media, mass hysteria about the whole thing really does stem from that direction, the Madeline McAnne business, Jessica and Holly, Baby P etc. etc. the list could go on and the media have to report it sure..but unfortunately people thus become sceptical of everyone else they don't know, hopefully we won't turn into a society where we trust no one.

and on a very very final a bit unrelated note - the police asked the media to stop reporting on cases of baby food being poisoned in supermarkets back in the 90's or 80's or whatever it was because it was sensationalising it and as a result the number of cases reduced dramatically. Such a big deal is made about everything in the news

edit: Ian, that's a heartbreaking story, sorry to hear such a thing
 
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iancandler said:
So false accusations are extremely serious in my book and I can understand the man walking away from his hobby rather than face what this lot are like around here.
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Sorry for your loss and that of your niece. Tragic

I'm saddened but sadly not surprised by your account. We also have to deal with that kind of stuff as well - though mostly not as extreme.

The general public's ability to get their head around child abuse is probably best illustrated with the example of the paediatrician whose home was targetted by vigilantes following Sarah Payne's murder as they though the "paed" abbreviation in the phone book meant paedophile.
 
it's yet another example of the stupid hysteria which is taking over the country.
You just don't get this sort of behaviour abroad.
Parents in other countries are still allowed to take photos of their own children without worrying about whether the photo processor will deem something obscene.
 
adsayer said:
actually just snotted my drink through my nose clicking on that.
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you really do need to look up the difference between coke and coca-cola!!! :lol:


oops read that as "snorted"........... d'oh!
 
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eos1 said:
it's yet another example of the stupid hysteria which is taking over the country.
You just don't get this sort of behaviour abroad.
Parents in other countries are still allowed to take photos of their own children without worrying about whether the photo processor will deem something obscene.
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I second that, there are many European countries that wouldn't give a second look to someone with a big camera and some children, not because they are light on paedophiles; but because they have common logical sense and the decent respect not to interfere with what is 'logically' a parent with their children etc.
 
Auwyn said:
If that was a dig at my knowledge on the subject, I have worked in child protection for the last eleven years. I have dealt with a number of incidents of abusive behaviour at swimming pools.

Edited to add: as a child protection social worker.
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This as bad as the paranoia of those who approached the photographer in the initial post. If we're not all careful who knows where those dam pedos will turn up! Bring back 'p*** Watch'.

On a more serious note these people need to get a life and unless I felt that I was under physical threat I would tell them to go do one.
 
iancandler said:
You'd be surprised at what can be classed as CP, for some merely having pictures of children, even your own nieces is enough, especially if your a middle aged single man.

I've been through this myself when taking pictures at my nieces request, of her in the local park, suffice to say the off duty copper concerned got told where to go and when he threatened me with a raid got told to go ahead and knock himself out wasting police time.

My little brother sadly didn't get out of things so lightly.
What you have to realise is the mentality of these people will not allow them to accept anything that does not agree with their initial assessment.
My brother was a junkie, he did a deal on behalf of some other guys who then refused to pay him, he lent on them and found himself falsely accused of flashing one of the guys daughter.
Before it was reported to the police it went all round our town and the aggro started, the police arrested him.
The police completely cleared him not least because on the day of the offence he was filmed by and undercover unit staking out the dealers he bought from, so he wasn't even in our town on the day of the supposed offence.
Even though this was told to the public, they didn't let up, he was beaten by two guys with baseball bats so hard his blood was on the ceiling of his hall !!, he was constantly threatened and told he would be killed, whilst staying at my parents for his safety his flat was broken into and set on fire, destroying his lounge completely.
He spent the last year of his life, with it under constant threat, the police did nothing, arrested no one and finally after nearly two years of this he killed himself because they where now threatening to harm his own daughter and he just couldn't take it any more.
That was 8 yrs ago, I raised his daughter who is now 21, but misses her dad every day...

So false accusations are extremely serious in my book and I can understand the man walking away from his hobby rather than face what this lot are like around here.
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Such a sad story, so sorry to hear that you lost your brother in this way... that's such a tragedy and a perfect example of how hurtful false accusations can be... it's truly depressing that this country has people in it that would use children to get someone of their backs in this way. It honestly makes me want to move myself, husband and children to another, more compassionate and caring place. Your Niece is lucky to have been cared for and raised by you... it would have been an even more horrific tale if she'd been taken away... I'm sure your brother would be grateful for you looking after her.
 
The false accusation thing is a huge problem, I know 2 people that it has affected, one was fairly lucky the girl a freind of his daughters accused him of touching her after he had told her off during the day for doing somthing stupid that put her in danger. He and his family had to leave the area, new names and everything and no contact with anyone they knew he phoned me with his new details but I wasn't allowed to tell anyone. The good bit the girl once she realised how much of a mess she had made of everything eventually admitted she had made it all up.

The other guy, met up with a girl he knew, walking home and they nipped in to the park for some fun ;) girls boyfriend found out so she claimed rape he is currently serving a sentance for rape.

The other night a girl claimed she had been raped in a local park, later it was anounced she wasn't.
 
I am not surprised any more, one only has to read some of the posts on here to understand why we, as a society, a truly rogered. The moronic minority are taking over, those that are never wrong, those that know everything and believe everything they read( sorry,listen would be a better word) in the gutter press that we have. Those that don`t have the ability to hold reasonable discussion so resort to WWF or Playstation antics, which tragically end up in decent people dying ( Father in Warrington for example,God rest his soul).

Basically,I`m really pee`d off with the whole bloody scenario and do feel for you decent people who live in the vicinity of some of these "New World Order Cretins"........:shake:
 
goldenlight said:
he was accused of improper behaviour for taking pictures of his own kids by a paraniod parent and subsequently suffered a torrent of abusive messages and finger pointing in public.
QUOTE]

:thinking:

what authority do people have to make those kind of allegations...

i suspect there may have been other children in the area..??

this makes beach photography difficult...but in the park not so hard if you are seen to be setting up a posed shot..

i think the whole story sounds drastic from both sides...
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I don't see why it has to be a secret who it is? It's Chillimonster, and he actually posted about it in his 365 thread yesterday/today - he's a great guy who's been around the forums for ages; loves his photography, is very good at it, and changes his kit nearly as much as Gingerweasel.....

It's an absolute travesty that b'stard ignorant people should be able to make others feel so bad that they chuck one of the things they love most.... :shrug:

Come back, Chilli.... buy anything (apart from a Canon) and get going again... :thumbs:
 
TheBigYin said:
To which the answer is "No, dear, they're far too ugly - please move them somewhere out of sight please, so I can take photos of MY children"
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Nice one! :thumbs:
 
DekHog said:
It's Chillimonster, and he actually posted about it in his 365 thread yesterday/today
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OMG - I really enjoy Chillmonster's 365 thread. Some great images there that I'm sure have inspired many.

DekHog said:
he's a great guy who's been around the forums for ages; loves his photography, is very good at it, and changes his kit nearly as much as Gingerweasel.....
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Hey wait a minute, I don't change my kit that often... oh wait I do :lol:
 
iancandler said:
You'd be surprised at what can be classed as CP, for some merely having pictures of children, even your own nieces is enough, especially if your a middle aged single man.

I too am sorry for you loss, very tragic situation.

Too date I have had no trouble with taking pictures out side in public venues. I normally get mistaken for being a paparazzi ! !

I would not hold back from confronting some one who is brave enough to accuse me of taking photos.
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Tysonator said:
I would not hold back from confronting some one who is brave enough to accuse me of taking photos.
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I'm just trying to work out what page this goes on in the Street Photogrsphers handbook?
 
DekHog said:
I don't see why it has to be a secret who it is? It's Chillimonster, and he actually posted about it in his 365 thread yesterday/today - he's a great guy who's been around the forums for ages; loves his photography, is very good at it, and changes his kit nearly as much as Gingerweasel.....

It's an absolute travesty that b'stard ignorant people should be able to make others feel so bad that they chuck one of the things they love most.... :shrug:

Come back, Chilli.... buy anything (apart from a Canon) and get going again... :thumbs:
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Ouch! I was trying to keep it anonymous as he's obviously suffered a lot and probably just wants to be left alone at the moment. I'm starting to regret starting this thread as it might make him feel worse, but I was (and still am) so sad and angry that he's been driven to give up his hobby.
 
Depressingly accurate................:shake:

Voyagers You Tube clip.
 
:shake: This whole thread just makes me very sad . . . that somebody has felt they need to give up their hobby because of it . . . for Ian's tragic story and all the others like it . . . and that some people are idiotic enough to believe anyone shooting kids must be a paedophile.

:shrug: I just don't know what else to say.
 
goldenlight said:
Ouch! I was trying to keep it anonymous as he's obviously suffered a lot and probably just wants to be left alone at the moment. I'm starting to regret starting this thread as it might make him feel worse, but I was (and still am) so sad and angry that he's been driven to give up his hobby.
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I agree - I bought a lens of Chilli a while a go, lovely bloke, makes me very angry to read this and hope he picks up a camera again
 
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