Mad? I'm ****** Seething!

[goldenlight]

Might I just ask how much we actually know about this case? Sorry but the OP is quite vague and it sounds a little like a rumour.

I agree the hysteria in this country is crazy but I would be interested to know what exactly is supposed to have happened.

It's no rumour. I don't want to be too specific out of respect for the photographer's privacy. This issue has made him ill. In retrospect I wonder if it was really my place to raise the issue but I was angry and dismayed when I learnt about it. Without being able to give anything more concrete I can assure you it was a very experienced photographer, who I know as a long standing member of another forum and for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration.

However, quite apart from this specific case the whole issue is becoming very problematic in general. I've endured the usual comments like, "Whatch him, he's got a camera," and "I hope you're not taking pictures of my kids."

The latest encounter was while taking a picture of my daughter in the street, passing the time, really, whilst we waited for my wife to rejoin us. A lady approached very purposefully, totally ignored me and addressed my daughter, "Do you know this man?" When my daughter replied that I was her Dad the woman gushed, "Oh, that's alright then. Can't be too carefull these days, my husband's a police officer you know," and hurried off leaving me gobsmacked.

Now you might feel that was very public spirited of her, and I'm sure she felt she was, but I was only one of a number of dads waiting around with their children, presumably because they, too, had errant wives who take the slogan "Shop 'till you drop" to a whole new level. Why didn't she approach one of them? There was one man handing a freshly purchased ice cream to his daughter - or was it his daughter? He could have been saying "Have an ice cream little girl, I have some sweeties in my car." Or another chap just chatting to his daughter. Everyone assumed it was his daughter but it could have been a stranger, having read the name on her hairband, saying, "Hello Mary, I'm a friend of your Mummy. She's had to go home in a hurry and asked me to come and give you a lift."

But no, they were all presumed innocent because they did not have cameras. I, on the other hand, obviously stood out as a likely pervert by virtue of having a camera. Like I say, I was gobsmacked. If something similar ever happens again I'll give chase and confront the perpetrator with their flawed logic, policeman's wife or not!

 

[Auwyn]

One was when I was out with her and she needed her nappy changing, the only place available at the time was the baby changing room in Mothercare. The looks that I received from the other mothers as I was the only father in the room, they were not adoring looks either.

We don't have good views on active parenting from fathers in this country. Quite a shame really. I know of men who work in child protection who wont even bathe their own children. How sad is that?

The second incident was the first time my daughter was taken to our local swimming pool. I was filming her and my wife in the kiddies pool, no other kids there, when a jumped up lifeguard told me to put the camera away, that is was illegal to film. I told him to point out the signs to that effect, which of course there were none. I then promptly told him to take a running jump, in not so many words and carried on filming.

Swimming pools actually do have rules about filming. It isnt illegal, but they are very careful about photography and videography in general. Mostly, people need to have permission to use cameras in swimming pools. They will, however, respond to requests to be able to photograph your own children there. It's just about being sensible. Swimming pools, unfortunately, are a good hangout for those with alterior motives.

I won't go to a park with my camera unless I've got my daughter with me, even for macro shots. You have to run into a really paranoid loony to get strife for taking pics of you're own kid!

I've been asked to take photos/video for a swimmer at a club for technique improvement, but I very much doubt the pool will allow that to happen.

They probably will if you ask and get permission from the child's parents.

The latest encounter was while taking a picture of my daughter in the street, passing the time, really, whilst we waited for my wife to rejoin us. A lady approached very purposefully, totally ignored me and addressed my daughter, "Do you know this man?" When my daughter replied that I was her Dad the woman gushed, "Oh, that's alright then. Can't be too carefull these days, my husband's a police officer you know," and hurried off leaving me gobsmacked.

A little knowledge is a bad thing. People who think they are experts because they are related in some way to someone who once went on a child protection course are a pain in the arse. They are not worth getting worked up over though - although I acknowledge that's easy for me to say.

 

[gman]

wonder how many of these "accusors" have a social networking site or 3, that is not secured to just their group of friends.........with pics of their kids and their kids mates all over it............

That's actually a very good point but people with the mentality that these accusers usually have will most likely not understand the similarity and subsequently their original wrong doing with accusing this guy of something they most likely do themselves.

To these people it's not about right and wrong; it's about finding an excuse to create a bit of drama in their obviously dull and repetitive lives.

 

[goldenlight]

Swimming pools actually do have rules about filming. It isnt illegal, but they are very careful about photography and videography in general. Mostly, people need to have permission to use cameras in swimming pools. They will, however, respond to requests to be able to photograph your own children there. It's just about being sensible. Swimming pools, unfortunately, are a good hangout for those with alterior motives.

I reckon that anyone so-minded could find all they ever wanted from Google within two minutes. Why go to the risk of filming at the local pool where people are, after all, still decently (albeit skimpilly) clothed? If a paedophile is planning to actually abduct a child that's a different matter, but would they really draw attention to themselves by filming at the forthcoming scene of their crime? I think not, they would no doubt quietly spirt their young victim away with some plausable lie or false promise - whilst some poor innocent guy picturing his kids is attracting all the attention. :bang:

 

[goldenlight]

A little knowledge is a bad thing. People who think they are experts because they are related in some way to someone who once went on a child protection course are a pain in the arse. They are not worth getting worked up over though - although I acknowledge that's easy for me to say.

 

[boyfalldown]

Swimming pools actually do have rules about filming. It isnt illegal, but they are very careful about photography and videography in general. Mostly, people need to have permission to use cameras in swimming pools. They will, however, respond to requests to be able to photograph your own children there. It's just about being sensible. Swimming pools, unfortunately, are a good hangout for those with alterior motives.

I would of thought they'd be one of the worse hangouts, vigilant staff (bordering on paranoid), every child with a parent, not to mention that they aren't solely for childrens use.

 

[Donki]

I reckon that anyone so-minded could find all they ever wanted from Google within two minutes. Why go to the risk of filming at the local pool where people are, after all, still decently (albeit skimpilly) clothed? If a paedophile is planning to actually abduct a child that's a different matter, but would they really draw attention to themselves by filming at the forthcoming scene of their crime? I think not, they would no doubt quietly spirt their young victim away with some plausable lie or false promise - whilst some poor innocent guy picturing his kids is attracting all the attention. :bang:

I have a friend that works in a leasure centre and they have had a few people caught using camera phones on numerous occasions in changing rooms and even by the pool/veiwing gallary these people range from teenagers to OAPs (none had any reason to be where they were). Not once have they caught anyone with a DSLR and a 70-200mm however.

We must remember that although the red tops do create massive paranoia there are some sick individuals who take advantage of any opertunities that they have I dont have to list the cases or the professions involved as I would be he all day. This however is no excuse for everyday professionals and hobbiests to be harrassed.

 

[Auwyn]

I reckon that anyone so-minded could find all they ever wanted from Google within two minutes.

I beg to differ. Indecent images of children are illegal the world over and google do a pretty good job (as far as is possible) to ensure they are blocked from their search engines.

Why go to the risk of filming at the local pool where people are, after all, still decently (albeit skimpilly) clothed?

People do all manner of risky things despite the risks. At some levels it is the risk that adds to the thrill. I sometimes wonder why people do half the things they do, but despite my incredulousness (I have no idea if that is a word) they happen just the same.

If a paedophile is planning to actually abduct a child that's a different matter, but would they really draw attention to themselves by filming at the forthcoming scene of their crime? I think not, they would no doubt quietly spirt their young victim away with some plausable lie or false promise - whilst some poor innocent guy picturing his kids is attracting all the attention. :bang:

The problem there is that - as you have already acknowledged - people are skimpily dressed at the swimming pool. Children too. As far as I am aware, swimming pools dont ban photography outright, but it makes sense that people should have to ask permission to do so, partly so that anyone recording is known to staff and partly to prevent histrionic responses by people who bandy the word "paedophile" like there's no tomorrow.

 

[Auwyn]

I would of thought they'd be one of the worse hangouts, vigilant staff (bordering on paranoid), every child with a parent, not to mention that they aren't solely for childrens use.

I don't know what swimming pools you go to, but most of the staff I have seen at swimming pools are fairly disinterested in what's going on around them. I work in a child protection team and we get a number of referrals of abusive activities in swimming pools.

We must remember that although the red tops do create massive paranoia there are some sick individuals who take advantage of any opertunities that they have I dont have to list the cases or the professions involved as I would be he all day. This however is no excuse for everyday professionals and hobbiests to be harrassed.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[ding76uk]

Swimming pools, unfortunately, are a good hangout for those with alterior motives.

A little knowledge is a bad thing.

 

[boyfalldown]

I have a friend that works in a leasure centre and they have had a few people caught using camera phones on numerous occasions in changing rooms and even by the pool/veiwing gallary these people range from teenagers to OAPs (none had any reason to be where they were). Not once have they caught anyone with a DSLR and a 70-200mm however.

We must remember that although the red tops do create massive paranoia there are some sick individuals who take advantage of any opertunities that they have I dont have to list the cases or the professions involved as I would be he all day. This however is no excuse for everyday professionals and hobbiests to be harrassed.

of those people they have caught, how many of them were doing so for 'bad' purposes, and how many were taking photos of the kids/grandkids, or teenages sending each other dodgy texts?

 

[Auwyn]

...

If that was a dig at my knowledge on the subject, I have worked in child protection for the last eleven years. I have dealt with a number of incidents of abusive behaviour at swimming pools.

Edited to add: as a child protection social worker.

 

[boyfalldown]

I don't know what swimming pools you go to, but most of the staff I have seen at swimming pools are fairly disinterested in what's going on around them. I work in a child protection team and we get a number of referrals of abusive activities in swimming pools.

do you mean the swimming pools I go to that aren't just for childrens use?

or as I suspect the ones I go to with fairly vigilent staff..........I think there is more of a question as to which ones you go to with disinterested staff?

edit - & the abusive activity reports you get, I know you can't go into details, but I'll bet not many involve people not know to the child before they went swimming. While we're on the subject of pools I go to, they all require children to be accompained

 

[BarryG]

do you mean the swimming pools I go to that aren't just for childrens use?

or as I suspect the ones I go to with fairly vigilent staff..........I think there is more of a question as to which ones you go to with disinterested staff?

Dude. Calm down.

You seem to be going thread to thread ******** on people today.

Read what Emma wrote here;

If that was a dig at my knowledge on the subject, I have worked in child protection for the last eleven years. I have dealt with a number of incidents of abusive behaviour at swimming pools.

Edited to add: as a child protection social worker.

 

[Donki]

of those people they have caught, how many of them were doing so for 'bad' purposes, and how many were taking photos of the kids/grandkids, or teenages sending each other dodgy texts?

I fail to see why anyone would be using a camera / camera phone in a changing room even if it is for there kids. The problem with our local pool is that it has small cubicles that you change in and these cubiles are unisex with a gap at the top and the bottom. The camera / phones were seen by people poking from below and over the top of the cubicles in at them. Dont ask me why this was done as its just asking for trouble.

 

[Auwyn]

of those people they have caught, how many of them were doing so for 'bad' purposes, and how many were taking photos of the kids/grandkids, or teenages sending each other dodgy texts?

Therein lies the problem. How do staff figure out who is taking photos for 'bad' purposes and who is taking them for 'good' purposes? They dont have the ability or the resources to be able to do so. Better to say "please dont take photos" than allow people to and weed out the bad eggs.

This view is based wholly on the fact that people are generally in a state of undress or very little dress at a swimming pool. I do not believe this should be the case in the street etc.

I would also question why anyone feels the need to take photos in the changing room anyway.

 

[Auwyn]

edit - & the abusive activity reports you get, I know you can't go into details, but I'll bet not many involve people not know to the child before they went swimming. While we're on the subject of pools I go to, they all require children to be accompained

They all require children of a certain age to be accompanied. After that age they can go on their own.
Most of the swimming pools referrals have been about people unknown to the victims. Most of the incidents of abuse we deal with are the opposite.

 

[ding76uk]

If that was a dig at my knowledge on the subject, I have worked in child protection for the last eleven years. I have dealt with a number of incidents of abusive behaviour at swimming pools.

Edited to add: as a child protection social worker.

Then you will also know that incidents are lower now than they were 100 years ago, and that most cases of abuse do not happen in a public place, or by a stranger.

I am saying that your statement, by someone who works in child protection, fuels the fires that suggest a parent taking photos of their kids at a pool is reason enough to suspect them.

I am sure you have dealt with cases at a swimming pool, but if you were to list where abuse takes place it would be a long way down the list.

 

[boyfalldown]

Dude. Calm down.

You seem to be going thread to thread ******** on people today.

Read what Emma wrote here;

do I? - I'm sorry if thats the case. I don't think I am particularly, but if thats not how you read it. I want to understand the points people are making, but I'm not apologising for that. I did read what Emma wrote, and replied to it

 

[boyfalldown]

Therein lies the problem. How do staff figure out who is taking photos for 'bad' purposes and who is taking them for 'good' purposes? They dont have the ability or the resources to be able to do so. Better to say "please dont take photos" than allow people to and weed out the bad eggs.

This view is based wholly on the fact that people are generally in a state of undress or very little dress at a swimming pool. I do not believe this should be the case in the street etc.

I would also question why anyone feels the need to take photos in the changing room anyway.

I do actually understand why people say no cameras in swimming pools now. I'm just not convinced that they are the local perv hangout

I'd question alot of things teenagers do :shrug:- and teenagers were mentioned doing this

and having read donkis reply I would add that while I agree its a problem in that case, not sure why its a child one in particular

 

[neil_g]

This view is based wholly on the fact that people are generally in a state of undress or very little dress at a swimming pool. I do not believe this should be the case in the street etc.

have you not seen the clothes some minors (mostly young girls) wear?

 

[Byker28i]

I beg to differ. Indecent images of children are illegal the world over and google do a pretty good job (as far as is possible) to ensure they are blocked from their search engines.

Just never click safe search from moderate to off then

 

[Donki]

have you not seen the clothes some minors (mostly young girls) wear?

Oh come on are you saying there are crowds of children running round the streets near you in swimm suits? I am not saying that every swimming pool in the land has a membership made up of peverts but some people do take advantage of the swimming pool environment its the minority yes but it does happen, I dont see what the argument is here.

 

[neil_g]

Oh come on are you saying there are crowds of children running round the streets near you in swimm suits? I am not saying that every swimming pool in the land has a membership made up of peverts but some people do take advantage of the swimming pool environment its the minority yes but it does happen, I dont see what the argument is here.

in the summer, bikini tops arent uncommon.. skirts that only just cover etc etc. plus opposite where i live is a large grassy area where a lot of kids hang out in the summer etc.

oh **** i better hide my 120-300, i might get accused of something..

 

[Donki]

in the summer, bikini tops arent uncommon.. skirts that only just cover etc etc. plus opposite where i live is a large grassy area where a lot of kids hang out in the summer etc.

oh **** i better hide my 120-300, i might get accused of something..

You are missing my point completely, the swimming pool is a totally different environment to the outdoors, what is any reason for ANYONE father/mother or not to have a camera in his/her hand in a bloody swimming pool chaging room??!!!

not saying there is anything wrong with carrying a camera around in public or that any photographer should be stopped i dont, I said that at the very start, I dont even know how swimming pools got brought up.

 

[neil_g]

You are missing my point completely, the swimming pool is a totally different environment to the outdoors, what is any reason for ANYONE father/mother or not to have a camera in his/her hand in a bloody swimming pool chaging room??!!!

not saying there is anything wrong with carrying a camera around in public or that any photographer should be stopped i dont, I said that at the very start, I dont even know how swimming pools got brought up.

i think theres a few mixed wires here.. i wasnt defending having a camera in a changing room.

i was trying to make the point (maybe rather hamfistedly) that just because a kid is in a swimming cossie at the swimming pool and having their photo taken (not in the changing room) doesnt automatically make them a target for dodgy behaviour when maybe the subject matter is more readily available out on the street and more likely away from suspecting eyes.. (oh now i sound like im giving out dodgy tips, but hopefully you get my point)

or something like that..

 

[adsayer]

oh **** i better hide my 120-300, i might get accused of something..

This is thing though... Is a P**** really going to use a DSLR with a whopping great big lens on it to capture his 'subjects'? I doubt it, they're going to be sly and use a camera phone or something and lurk in bushes/changing rooms.

 

[neil_g]

This is thing though... Is a P**** really going to use a DSLR with a whopping great big lens on it to capture his 'subjects'? I doubt it, they're going to be sly and use a camera phone or something and lurk in bushes/changing rooms.

you know that and i know that..

 

[boyfalldown]

This is thing though... Is a P**** really going to use a DSLR with a whopping great big lens on it to capture his 'subjects'? I doubt it, they're going to be sly and use a camera phone or something and lurk in bushes/changing rooms.

I agree.

I'd also be interested to know of those child abuse cases that have been proven over the last few years how many actually took photos from any vantage point in public with any sort of camera

 

[Dangleman]

This thread is crying out for a Frankie Boyle line (when I saw him live), but given it's 'the internet' it would no doubt be misconstrued and a sense of humour bypass would occur...

 

[adsayer]

you know that and i know that..

about lurking in bushes with a camera phone?

 

[Donki]

i think theres a few mixed wires here.. i wasnt defending having a camera in a changing room.

i was trying to make the point (maybe rather hamfistedly) that just because a kid is in a swimming cossie at the swimming pool and having their photo taken (not in the changing room) doesnt automatically make them a target for dodgy behaviour when maybe the subject matter is more readily available out on the street and more likely away from suspecting eyes.. (oh now i sound like im giving out dodgy tips, but hopefully you get my point)

or something like that..

He He sounds like a line friom the perverts handbook, only messing. I agree with what you say and there was some crossed wires and maybe a dodgy fuse. Its a shame the subject has to be discussed at all.

 

[adsayer]

I agree.

I'd also be interested to know of those child abuse cases that have been proven over the last few years how many actually took photos from any vantage point in public with any sort of camera

with the accused screaming 'but look at the bokeh!!111'.

 

[neil_g]

about lurking in bushes with a camera phone?

http://naturephotography.fredhurteau.com/images/camo/Tripod-Lens-PhotographerLooking.jpg

Its a shame the subject has to be discussed at all.

amen to that...

 

[boyfalldown]

with the accused screaming 'but look at the bokeh!!111'.

 

[adsayer]

http://naturephotography.fredhurteau.com/images/camo/Tripod-Lens-PhotographerLooking.jpg

actually just snotted my drink through my nose clicking on that.

 

[onefunkypenguin]

I would of thought they'd be one of the worse hangouts, vigilant staff (bordering on paranoid), every child with a parent, not to mention that they aren't solely for childrens use.

il paranoid you! ima lifeguard and il have you know the pool i work in is full of lazy people who dont watch the pool.

 

[TheBigYin]

I...I've endured the usual comments like, "Whatch him, he's got a camera," and "I hope you're not taking pictures of my kids."

To which the answer is "No, dear, they're far too ugly - please move them somewhere out of sight please, so I can take photos of MY children"

 

[boyfalldown]

il paranoid you! ima lifeguard and il have you know the pool i work in is full of lazy people who dont watch the pool.

apparently thats not like the pools I go to

 

[onefunkypenguin]

ha ha, we have a no photography and video policy but it clearly states this at the front doors and on a couple of signs.

i disagree with this to an extent, having to go up to someone when they are the only people in the pool and ask them to not take pictures is pretty bad, especially when they are over here on holiday!