M25 near miss

It was the metro that reported that the honda driver tried to put in a claim for whiplash - obviously take that with a pinch of salt but at the same time it wouldnt surprise me either, its quite a common fraudulant activity these days
 
overbez said:
Speed readout in the lower centre of the video puts speed at a pretty constant 82km/h actually jumping to 83 at the moment of impact.

And IMO he was still far too close to the truck in front.
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Not relevant in any way,shape or form, the car driver is 100% at fault. The car driver showed no anticipation, consideration nor concentration, he/she/it just waltzed down the slip road hoping that everything else could move out of their way.The vehicles on the main carriageway have right of way and do not have to do anything to "help" vehicles merge. Granted, a lot of vehicles do exactly that and help others merge if possible. But it is not a foregone conclusion that they can always do so.
 
Have never said the car driver wasn't at fault...

Just that the professional, trained, and probably experienced truck driver could have done a lot more than they did to prevent the incident happening.
 
Just noticed on the m25 video that the slip road actually had 2 lanes so the car driver could easily have moved to the other empty left sliproad lane if they were running out of space in the right sliproad lane. I can only imagine the driver was busy on their phone or texting which is sadly the case too often these days.
 
overbez said:
Have never said the car driver wasn't at fault...

Just that the professional, trained, and probably experienced truck driver could have done a lot more than they did to prevent the incident happening.
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Why should they?

It's solely the responsibility of the car driver to merge onto the motorway. The road markings denote a giveaway.

The cars driving is nothing less than dangerous.
 
ST4 said:
Why should they?

It's solely the responsibility of the car driver to merge onto the motorway. The road markings denote a giveaway.

The cars driving is nothing less than dangerous.
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Because all road users have a responsibility to drive with care and consideration for others. And I would expect a far greater level of skill from a professional driver than from an "ordinary" motorist in a car.

Of course the truck has the "right of way" but a good driver should be prepared to concede that in order to avoid potentially getting involved in an accident that could kill somebody.
 
I can only imagine the driver was busy on their phone or texting which is sadly the case too often these days.
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I would think it's more that the car driver, like so many others these days is completely ignorant of how to join a motorway. I see it more and more, they think they have a god given right to join, and that vehicles on the carriageway should take avoiding action, break or change lane.
Which of course they don't, the road marking on the slip road they have top cross is a give way line. They are crossing it, they give way. It's poor driving usually when someone runs out of road on the slip road.

However, Graham is right in that once it becomes obvious someone is going to pull onto the carriageway, and that an accident is going to happen, then they have an obligation to avoid it. In this case the lorry driver could have simply braked and doesn't seem to have done so.
 
overbez said:
Speed readout in the lower centre of the video puts speed at a pretty constant 82km/h actually jumping to 83 at the moment of impact.

And IMO he was still far too close to the truck in front.
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A trucks lengthish by the look of it, which is more then you often see between them, and whilst we ALL know the gaps you should leave, few do and when you do, some idiot jumps into it. Not condoning the distances btw, just stating the realities. However, still car drivers fault, he totally misjudged it, didn't accelerate into the gap or judge his own or the lorry drivers speed at all. Yes, the lorry driver could have lifted off, but there wasn't actually any need had the car driver been anywhere near competent imo.
 
overbez said:
Because all road users have a responsibility to drive with care and consideration for others. And I would expect a far greater level of skill from a professional driver than from an "ordinary" motorist in a car.

Of course the truck has the "right of way" but a good driver should be prepared to concede that in order to avoid potentially getting involved in an accident that could kill somebody.
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Yes, but the right of way is for the lorry. Drivers need to drive according to the rules of the road and be able to drive in a safe and competent manner. Just what was safe or competent about the Honda drivers manouvre.
 
Yv said:
However, still car drivers fault, he totally misjudged it, didn't accelerate into the gap or judge his own or the lorry drivers speed at all.
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Absolutely, never said otherwise. :)

ST4 said:
Just what was safe or competent about the Honda drivers manouvre.
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Absolutely nothing. I've never said otherwise.

Bernie174 said:
I would think it's more that the car driver, like so many others these days is completely ignorant of how to join a motorway. I see it more and more, they think they have a god given right to join, and that vehicles on the carriageway should take avoiding action, break or change lane.
Which of course they don't, the road marking on the slip road they have top cross is a give way line. They are crossing it, they give way. It's poor driving usually when someone runs out of road on the slip road.

However, Graham is right in that once it becomes obvious someone is going to pull onto the carriageway, and that an accident is going to happen, then they have an obligation to avoid it. In this case the lorry driver could have simply braked and doesn't seem to have done so.
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Thankyou Bernie. :)

So steve @ST4, you're driving (hypothetically speaking of course) down a road crossing a roundabout when a child (young teenager shall we say) (edit - obviously on a bike.) pulls out onto the roundabout in front of you.... What do you do? Carry on at 30mph as it is your RoW? and then explain that fact later to the childs parents?

Or... you are in your car in the truck drivers place in this example, a truck is entering the motorway alongside you, seemingly oblivious to your presence? Lets assume you don't "boot it" and overtake the truck in front but instead choose to maintain your speed and position as after all you have the RoW. Which the police officer will of course explain to your family later that evening.

Part of being a good driver is knowing when to give up your RoW in order to avoid an accident.
 
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I brake, and indeed I have let other vehicles merge in as a courtesy, but on the 25 the lanes are clogged and the driver of the car should have seen this and banked on having to merge in safely, rather than cut up the lorry, miss judge the gap and get themselves killed.

Section 2 dangerous driving is the only fitting charge for such driving.
 
ST4
That as may be, but given the speed of the lorry, and the view of the other lanes in the video it is obvious that the M25 was not clogged up. There was no reason I could see why he could not have lifted off the go peddle, or braked slightly, once it became obvious , which it was, that the car was going to pull onto the carriageway. The accident would have been avoided completely had he done that.

It terms of 'fault' therefore this incident is as much down to the lorry as the car. It may have been different if the car had come up the slip at high speed and then suddenly pulled over to lane 1, in this case though that does not apply, it was blindingly obvious for 4 or 5 seconds what was going to happen.
 
maybe there was a vehicle alongside the lorry preventing him from moving out a lane?

only a few people will know the answer, so the discussion is all hypothetical. Saying that, the incident is 100% the fault of the car driver.
 
Bernie174 said:
ST4
That as may be, but given the speed of the lorry, and the view of the other lanes in the video it is obvious that the M25 was not clogged up. There was no reason I could see why he could not have lifted off the go peddle, or braked slightly, once it became obvious , which it was, that the car was going to pull onto the carriageway. The accident would have been avoided completely had he done that.

It terms of 'fault' therefore this incident is as much down to the lorry as the car. It may have been different if the car had come up the slip at high speed and then suddenly pulled over to lane 1, in this case though that does not apply, it was blindingly obvious for 4 or 5 seconds what was going to happen.
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You are assuming the lorry driver would have had the same view of the car as the camera, which I'm willing to bet he didn't, he will have been sitting further back in the cab. If you watch the video the car actually slows before pulling out, the lorry driver may have lost view of the car, if he'd been able to see it in the first place and assumed that it had stopped. Had the car not slowed and made a better attempt the lorry driver would have had a better chance of avoiding contact.
There was a similar instance a few years back where a car had ended up across the front of a truck. The truck driver was totally unaware of the incident for some time as the force of impact was so light he hadn't felt it in the cab and the car was in a blind spot directly in front of the cab. It was only after other motorists had managed to attract his attention and let him know something was wrong that he pulled over and found out.

I use motorways and dual carriageways a lot and see an increasing number of drivers totally inept in joining the roads from slip roads. They seem to think that they can join these roads at 40mph, where the traffic is just as likely to be travelling at 56-70mph. I can't believe the number I have seen actually run out of slip road and stop at the end because they wouldn't get up to a suitable speed, to be able to merge.
 
I don't agree I'm afraid. The car would have been visible and had it 'disappeared' from direct vision, it would have re appeared in his near side mirror.

The lorry driver is supposed to be a professional driver, and I'm sorry, but he had a big part to play in this.

I accept that the car driver is an idiot but in this case it took 2 to tango, the lorry driver was being bloody minded.

There is no minimum speed for entering a motorway, and I don't see the same issues you do. I do see on my 150 daily slog cars doing what this car driver did, pulling onto lane 1, irrespective of whats there and how close it is. With sensible speed control, observation and good driving that could be avoided.

I think that video shows that there is a need for motorway training for all drivers. I know, it's difficult for some in parts of the country, but most of it could be done on duel carriageways.
 
Bernie174 said:
I don't agree I'm afraid. The car would have been visible and had it 'disappeared' from direct vision, it would have re appeared in his near side mirror.

The lorry driver is supposed to be a professional driver, and I'm sorry, but he had a big part to play in this.
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Utter and complete codswallop.
 
Bernie174 said:
I don't agree I'm afraid. The car would have been visible and had it 'disappeared' from direct vision, it would have re appeared in his near side mirror.
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Shows how much you know.
 
Why as a car driver would you assume a lorry driver would see you and slow down to facilitate your crappy manouvrer.

Sorry, the responsibility for your safety on the roads lies with you, not assuming someone else will see you, assume they won't. Never mind the highway code, right of way blah blah.
 
Ade & Nilagin

The driver quite clearly should have seen the car as it came up the slip. A professional driver would have been looking in his NS mirror for just that. The cars was sufficiently in front of him to see it was there, before it dropped back slightly, and it was slightly, it was not outside his field of view at that point, it can't have been, 80+% of it was in front of the lorry.

Nigalin, your video does nothing to prove he couldn't or shouldn't have been looking.

Ade, if you can't pout forward a reasoned argument in defence of your point, don't bother saying anything.

You can both disagree, however, in my professional opinion, the lorry driver is guilty of careless driving. His driving standard dropped well below that which should be expected of the average driver. That said, the car driver, again, in my professional opinion is guilty of reckless driving.

You're free to disagree, but I'm afraid that neither of you are either professionally trained in law, or driving.
 
Bernie, you are quick enough to spout about your experience in the police, assuming that is correct, your experience of driving lorries is tantamount to zero.

You are talking about something YOU have no experience of,whatsoever. As most car drivers do when blaming lorry drivers for every collision they are involved in. The car is clearly at fault, I don`t know what the motorway traffic was like behind or alongside the lorry, yet you pass partial blame onto him. I simply cannot believe that you, as an experienced driver, can be so silly. Please don`t bother multi quoting or pontificating any longer, you are wrong. Perish the thought.

@ST4 ....be careful, we may be agreeing on something.
 
Bernie174 said:
Nigalin, your video does nothing to prove he couldn't or shouldn't have been looking.
You're free to disagree, but I'm afraid that neither of you are either professionally trained in law, or driving.
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Having been trained by a professional driving instructor and subsequently passed a driving test, it would appear I am indeed professionaly trained.
As for my video, look at how much of the ground is visible directly in front of the lorry, then watch the original dashcam video, if the Honda driver did infact cross the hatchings from the left hand slip road to the right hand slip road, the lorry driver would not necessarily come alongside.
For all your being professionally trained on the law and driving, I can only assume you missed the observation skills course.
 
Bernie174 said:
You're free to disagree, but I'm afraid that neither of you are either professionally trained in law, or driving.
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Seemingly,neither are you if you think the lorry driver is in anyway at fault. My driving qualifications and road haulage qualifications far outweigh yours, be assured of that.
 
Bernie174 said:
Ade & Nilagin

The driver quite clearly should have seen the car as it came up the slip. A professional driver would have been looking in his NS mirror for just that. The cars was sufficiently in front of him to see it was there, before it dropped back slightly, and it was slightly, it was not outside his field of view at that point, it can't have been, 80+% of it was in front of the lorry.

Nigalin, your video does nothing to prove he couldn't or shouldn't have been looking.

Ade, if you can't pout forward a reasoned argument in defence of your point, don't bother saying anything.

You can both disagree, however, in my professional opinion, the lorry driver is guilty of careless driving. His driving standard dropped well below that which should be expected of the average driver. That said, the car driver, again, in my professional opinion is guilty of reckless driving.

You're free to disagree, but I'm afraid that neither of you are either professionally trained in law, or driving.
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Get down off your high horse Bernie. You never miss an opportunity to remind us that you're the only one with an opinion worth listening too because "you're professionally trained". Youre advocating driving like a dick and rely on everyone else to keep you safe. Must be that professional training.

The car driver has moved from the inner lane to the outer crossing two solid white lines to do so.

And also the lorry driver was able to prove that he wasn't at fault
 
Really Ade?
So my HGV2 license doesn't exist then?
The reality is that I very really lay all the blame at lorry drivers, mostly, it's entirely the car/bike/cyclist who's at fault. Nor have I laid all the blame here at the lorry driver. The fact remains that the car was well within his view. He could and should have done something to avoid what happened, he didn't. He should take responsibility for that. That said, of course the majority of blame lays with the car.

Nilagin

Quite clearly I haven't.
 
Gary

Perhaps you'd care to show me where it is I advocated 'Driving like a dick'? Yes, I am entitled to express an opinion, and I base that opinion on knowledge and skills. You are as free as the other s to disagree, I couldn't care less what you think.

Whether or not it crossed a double white line, and thats not clear, it was 80+% ahead of the lorry for 3 or 5 seconds. The driver would have been able to see it, and see it move towards him. He was quite capable of slowing down, he didn't. If you think that heading into what is obviously an accident is 'good driving', then please send your license back to DVLA.
 
fracster said:
Bernie, you are quick enough to spout about your experience in the police, assuming that is correct, your experience of driving lorries is tantamount to zero.

You are talking about something YOU have no experience of,whatsoever. As most car drivers do when blaming lorry drivers for every collision they are involved in. The car is clearly at fault, I don`t know what the motorway traffic was like behind or alongside the lorry, yet you pass partial blame onto him. I simply cannot believe that you, as an experienced driver, can be so silly. Please don`t bother multi quoting or pontificating any longer, you are wrong. Perish the thought.

@ST4 ....be careful, we may be agreeing on something.
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I just say it how it is. The driving of the lorry was safe and legal. The driving of the car was suicidal.

Road markings, Highway Code innit. How's this got to so many pages?
 
Bernie174 said:
Really Ade?
So my HGV2 license doesn't exist then?
The reality is that I very really lay all the blame at lorry drivers, mostly, it's entirely the car/bike/cyclist who's at fault. Nor have I laid all the blame here at the lorry driver. The fact remains that the car was well within his view. He could and should have done something to avoid what happened, he didn't. He should take responsibility for that. That said, of course the majority of blame lays with the car.

Nilagin

Quite clearly I haven't.
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Badly in need or a refresher on everything then.
Watch the video again, the car clearly crosses the hatchings between the two slip road lanes which would have put the car out of view from the lorry drivers mirrors as it pulls alongside. The dash cam is a lot closer and higher in the windscreen than the lorry drivers own physical view point. This means the lorry drivers view of the car will be a lot less than you believe it will be. As a "professional driver" you will be aware that the lorry driver will be having to watch the rest of the road as well and won't have necessarily seen that car until just before contact.
 
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Pray tell Bernie, when was the last time you drove a lorry,on a motorway, for a full legal shift?
 
Bernie174 said:
Yes, I am entitled to express an opinion, and I base that opinion on knowledge and skills. You are as free as the other s to disagree, I couldn't care less what you think.
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Am I the only one thinking there maybe a few wrongly convicted drivers out there?
 
As far as i can see the trucker is not at fault and certainly not guilty of careless driving!!!!
What we cant see is what is to the side and rear of the lorry that potentially induce him into continuing his course.
Equally if there was plenty space behind the truck common sense should have told the honda driver to fall back behind the truck. Given that he didnt is possibly evident that there may have been someone right up the truckers chuff!!!

Anyway the trucker did nothing wrong and the honda driver should be grateful of the truckers actions
 
Watch the video again, the car clearly crosses the hatchings between the two slip road lanes which would have put the car out of view from the lorry drivers mirrors as it pulls alongside. The dash cam is a lot closer and higher in the windscreen than the lorry drivers own physical view point. This means the lorry drivers view of the car will be a lot less than you believe it will be. As a "professional driver" you will be aware that the lorry driver will be having to watch the rest of the road as well and won't have necessarily seen that car until just before contact.
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I watched it a number of times, and it's not clear if it did cross the hatched lines or not, it could have done, or it could have been the distortion of the leans that makes it look like it did.It really makes no difference though, the important bit is the fact it was sufficiently visible as was the fact the car was rapidly running out of road. Now, no one disputes that the Lorry has right of way, or that the car driver is a prat, but the lorry driver would have been able to see the car, should have been looking for that sort of thing and should have worked out what was about to happen. He has, like it or not as much obligation to avoid the accident as the car driver, and it was easily avoided.

Thats why he's in the frame as well. Now, as I said, you can like that, or not, it makes no difference to my life, I am simply stating facts. Had I been reporting it, reluctantly, he would be going in the book. However, he'd also be getting a great deal of praise over the way he dealt with it from impact onwards. I do have a great deal of sympathy with him, people think that their indicator gives them a god given right to just pull into a lane of traffic, which seems to be a problem getting far worse of late. But drivers, thats all drivers do have an obligation where an accident is obviously about to happen to do something to prevent it. 'Rights' and 'priorities' don't come into it.
 
Both vehicles traveling at 50mph according to the commentary. What sort of imbecile joins the Motorway at that speed ?

How could the driver of the car have failed to see what's unfolding, seen the gap ahead and accelerated out of trouble ?

Car driver clearly at fault here not going at an appropriate speed to the conditions. Lucky this was not a fatality.
 
Bernie, you are still ignoring the fact that unless the driver was able to view the car from the same position as the camera (centre top of the windscreen and maybe 2" back) the driver would never have been able to see what the camera shows. You think the car was visible, I reckon the first that car became visible to the lorry driver, is after it made contact with the lorry and the front end swung around in front of the driver.
 
That lorry blind spot video is only relavent when the cab is angled relative to the trailer. The mirrors on the near side if correctly adjusted should cover the very blind spot the car is in.

The car driver is obviously at fault here. No one is disputing that.

But if the truck driver had done more than just sit in the inside lane on his speed limiter / cruise control the incident might have been avoided.

As a professional driver of a large heavy vehicle he should shoulder a greater part of the responsibility to keep the roads safe.
 
overbez said:
That lorry blind spot video is only relavent when the cab is angled relative to the trailer. The mirrors on the near side if correctly adjusted should cover the very blind spot the car is in.

The car driver is obviously at fault here. No one is disputing that.

But if the truck driver had done more than just sit in the inside lane on his speed limiter / cruise control the incident might have been avoided.

As a professional driver of a large heavy vehicle he should shoulder a greater part of the responsibility to keep the roads safe.
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Watch the video again, he clearly comes from the inside to outside lane on the slip road as he is alongside the lorry cab. The mirrors are only likely to show the outside lane and not he inside lane the car came from so as far as the mirrors and the visibility through the cab windows provide, this car will have come from nowhere.
 
overbez said:
But if the truck driver had done more than just sit in the inside lane on his speed limiter / cruise control the incident might have been avoided.
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To be pedantic, at 82kph he is not on the limiter
 
51mph given we don't know how the screen camera gets its speed data... GPS or directly from the truck, it could be on the limiter.

And a correctly adjusted downward facing mirror should give a field of view 2 metres wide from the nearside of the lorry, 1 metre forward of the drivers eye line and 1.5 metres behind it. So I would say the car could have been visible in a correctly fitted and adjusted mirror.
 
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