Lorry crashes

[LongLensPhotography]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-31112578
Frankly this is one too many. It is some of the worst things that can happen on the road, and car drivers have no control over it. Even NCAP 5 star rating won't be any help if one comes your way, let alone the cost to the whole economy.

There is clearly a problem with lorry design. As soon as it goes beyond a certain point it can't be controlled. Even worse, they are driven by humans, some of which fall asleep or feel like engaging in road rage. Effectively I feel threatened by lorries more than ISIS and ebola put together.

Something needs to be done. I think the answer is electronics. Make lane departure / lane changes control and collision warning systems mandatory. It shouldn't be too difficult to retrofit already pretty good technology. Also they need some sort of ESP that would just flat out prevent actions leading to jackknifing.

I would also absolutely ban them from leaving the left lane except for overtaking stationary obstacles.

What's your take on this?

 

[viv1969]

Having been sideswiped by a French truck on the M20 7 years ago, I'd utterly agree with you.

 

[dejongj]

I agree in principle. The article doesn't provide much information on what actually happened or caused the jackknife. It would be good to learn that.

Not the same as a lorry, but when I was towing a 27 foot boat regularly I often had to utter many a swear word when car drivers on the motorway cut in the safe space in front of you and hit their brakes immediately. Now I was light comparatively but gained a lot of sympathy for heavy goods vehicles with so many idiots in the road.

Or those smallish roundabouts, I've had it so many times that car drivers try to quickly overtake you on the inside whilst due to the length it is obvious you have to use all of the space to go around it. Oh the road rage they then get as well.

It is sad for those involved yesterday but I would love to know what happened.

 

[Steve Smith]

To be fair, most of them don't crash and are driven by highly competent drivers.

I feel more at risk from car and van drivers than from drivers of large vehicles - even when I'm on a bicycle.


Steve.

 

[LCPete]

To be honest I have always found lorry driver's to be ok its car and van drivers with a bad attitude that's the problem
I wonder if some of the crashes aren't caused by a car driver forcing the wagon driver to swerve or brake hard
mistakes do happen though , one of the cables we made at work fell off the back of the wagon while being transported!
this was a large power cable weighing many tons

 

[archangel]

Totally agree.....and Def keep them to the left lane only........and more cops on the road to prosecute them when they play silly buggers.....

 

[LCPete]

Totally agree.....and Def keep them to the left lane only........and more cops on the road to prosecute them when they play silly buggers.....

Sorry mate but gotta disagree with you there of course a few lorry drivers are muppets and the slow overtake thing in the middle lane is frustrating but most are ok and its car drivers that need more coppers to stop them doing stupid things

 

[archangel]

Sorry mate but gotta disagree with you there of course a few lorry drivers are muppets and the slow overtake thing in the middle lane is frustrating but most are ok and its car drivers that need more coppers to stop them doing stupid things

Don't get me wrong.....I used to hold a lorry licence and I know a lot of lorry drivers are professional in their driving but I still think the cops turn a blind eye to things such as over taking and taking 3 miles to complete the manoeuvre.and streaming so close to the lorry in front that the driver can actually lick the paint if the lorry in front.....which is a ridiculous thing to do in the first place......as for the majority of car drivers they need a separate police force to nail them for stupid speeds, both fast and very slow, and other dangerous driving......but as this thread was about lorries I only mentioned them

 

[Yv]

"car drivers have no control over it" - yes, because cars are always driven by people fully aware and in control aren't they?

Like JP says, without knowing how the accident happened, it is hardly fair of you to assume it was the lorry drivers fault. It takes certain conditions to cause a jack-knife, most of them external influences causing a reaction that simply goes beyond the laws of physics. I say that as someone that gets heartily fed up of lorry drivers that just suddenly start pulling over into the next lane without so much as an indicator and with no apparent awareness of the fact the car they are about to sideswipe has no where to go. However, the number of times that happens compared to the number of HGV's on the road is a tiny, weeny 0.something percent. The huge majority of HGV drivers are far better at the driving game than you, me and the rest of us.

Yes, technology could help, of that I have no doubt, they are human and mistakes will be made and in something that big, a mistake can be very costly but a few less 'driving gods' on the motorways, a few less 'entitled' middle lane hoggers, a few less 'egovans' and few more people taught to be a little more aware of what is happening ahead would solve a whole lot of problems.

 

[viv1969]

Sorry mate but gotta disagree with you there of course a few lorry drivers are muppets and the slow overtake thing in the middle lane is frustrating but most are ok and its car drivers that need more coppers to stop them doing stupid things

Have to disagree a little and say that the foreign truck drivers (which way outnumber the domestics on the M-ways here in Kent) drive like complete a-holes.
They know there's pretty much no come-back on them for doing so.

 

[archangel]

Have to disagree a little and say that the foreign truck drivers (which way outnumber the domestics on the M-ways here in Kent) drive like complete a-holes.
They know there's pretty much no come-back on them for doing so.

So true

 

[Yv]

Have to disagree a little and say that the foreign truck drivers (which way outnumber the domestics on the M-ways here in Kent) drive like complete a-holes.
They know there's pretty much no come-back on them for doing so.

That I am more inclined to agree with, some of the more stupid things I have seen have been done by lorries on foreign plates.

 

[LCPete]

Have to disagree a little and say that the foreign truck drivers (which way outnumber the domestics on the M-ways here in Kent) drive like complete a-holes.
They know there's pretty much no come-back on them for doing so.

Have to disagree a little and say that the foreign truck drivers (which way outnumber the domestics on the M-ways here in Kent) drive like complete a-holes.
They know there's pretty much no come-back on them for doing so.

Yes you have a point there I don't get down that way very often I guess the standard of test for foreign lorry drivers isn't as high as ours

 

[onomatopoeia]

Elephant racing is a product of the 56mph limiters they are all fitted with, do away with those and the problem will to a large extent go away.

Generally I find lorry drivers far more aware of road conditions, traffic levels and so on than many car and van drivers on motorways. When I'm towing the race car around (haven't done that for a few years, but was always my experience) they are much more considerate about leaving me room to pull over, indicating when it's clear, not filling the safety gap ahead of me etc.

 

[viv1969]

Elephant racing is a product of the 56mph limiters they are all fitted with, do away with those and the problem will to a large extent go away.

Generally I find lorry drivers far more aware of road conditions, traffic levels and so on than many car and van drivers on motorways. When I'm towing the race car around (haven't done that for a few years, but was always my experience) they are much more considerate about leaving me room to pull over, indicating when it's clear, not filling the safety gap ahead of me etc.

An extremely high precentage of foreign trucks clearly don't have that limiter though, as is oft' demonstrated by their doing 65+ along the M20, regardless of the regular 50mph posted limit; again because they know that as foreign operators, they won't be issued with a penalty.

 

[stupar]

You can fit a truck with all the electronic gizmos in the world (all modern trucks have ESP) but as Yv has said, under certain conditions and situations if a trailer is going to swing round, it will swing round!

A simple swerve and immediate heavy braking can be enough to allow 30 plus tonnes of trailer start to rotate around its pivot point

 

[andya700]

Elephant racing is a product of the 56mph limiters they are all fitted with, do away with those and the problem will to a large extent go away.

Generally I find lorry drivers far more aware of road conditions, traffic levels and so on than many car and van drivers on motorways. When I'm towing the race car around (haven't done that for a few years, but was always my experience) they are much more considerate about leaving me room to pull over, indicating when it's clear, not filling the safety gap ahead of me etc.

Is it also correct that foreign lorries are not limited in any way, because on the M2 and M20, I have witnessed foreign lorries doing between 60mph and 70mph overtaking the UK lorries.
One other problem, seems to be the ever increasing numbers of older drivers who drive cars at around 50mph - everywhere including motorways - presumably to save fuel or because they do not like going any faster. This cause lorry drivers to use the middle lane, or even the third out of four lanes (on the M2 between Gillingham and Gravesend).

 

[wyx087]

Something needs to be done. I think the answer is electronics. Make lane departure / lane changes control and collision warning systems mandatory. It shouldn't be too difficult to retrofit already pretty good technology. Also they need some sort of ESP that would just flat out prevent actions leading to jackknifing.

I would also absolutely ban them from leaving the left lane except for overtaking stationary obstacles.

I support all of this!

As someone who is shopping for as much electronically assisted car as possible, I think we are at a stage that motorway driving is far safer with electronics than bad-tempered, slow-reacting humans.

oh how I wish we can have retrofitted active lane assist and distance-keep assist as well as automatic low speed emergency stop. Unfortunately the human element always gets in the way of technology: during my car shopping thread, points were raised and people were not so welcome of such technology.

 

[Steve Smith]

I think we are at a stage that motorway driving is far safer with electronics than bad-tempered, slow-reacting humans.

I disagree. I think it gives you a false sense of security. In my opinion, cars should have uncomfortable seats, no power steering, no radios/CD players, etc.


Steve.

 

[wyx087]

I disagree. I think it gives you a false sense of security. In my opinion, cars should have uncomfortable seats, no power steering, no radios/CD players, etc.

In my vision of future, you don't need any level of sense of security, cars take over and you can't get control back until you are on the slip-road. This is compulsory on all cars, so no more morons driving like an asshat causing accidents.

Of course I agree uncomfortable seats and no phone/radio/speaking/distraction should be compulsory on roads there computer's can't handle.

And comfy sport seats a must for twisty B roads.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

I disagree. I think it gives you a false sense of security. In my opinion, cars should have uncomfortable seats, no power steering, no radios/CD players, etc.


Steve.

In my opinion people with such views are better off on a train

 

[the black fox]

a few years ago the powers that be decided to open up mostyn docks on the river dee as a new ferry terminal for irish lorry traffic ,as it cuts off 80 miles from there journey time .(it has since closed ) during that period of time i had a police traffic officer living next door and we often had a chat over the fence as you do .anyway he told me that they had started to do spot checks on the irish lorry drivers and due to what they found it became a weekly event i.e ,drivers who had never taken a normal test ,let alone a HGV one .and on one occasion a 13 year old lad driving a 32 ton arctic and fully laden trailer .the mind boggles but its fact .

 

[LongLensPhotography]

points were raised and people were not so welcome of such technology.

They are either:

1. Loonies that want to misbehave on public roads
2. 20 plenty car haters trying to make driving awful and too expensive.

I would happily see both groups going extinct together with ISIS.

 

[Steve Smith]

In my opinion people with such views are better off on a train

Everyone is better off on a train (or bus). Thousands of little metal boxes all going in the same direction with one person in them spewing out the exhaust from an engine each is madness.


Steve.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Everyone is better off on a train (or bus). Thousands of little metal boxes all going in the same direction with one person in them spewing out the exhaust from an engine each is madness.


Steve.

So one crawling influenza and STD infested torture chamber churning out massive plumes of black smoke is better then? No, no chance. It is your choice to suffer but please don't force it to anyone else.

 

[Bernie174]

In general, I think HGV drivers are safer than the vast majority of car drivers.
But when an HGV stuffs it up, it makes headlines. When a car does the same thing, then it's pretty much ignored.

That said, HGV's do some pretty stupid things. One on my way home on Monday, one swevered from the inside lane to half in lane 3. No reason for it as far as the road was concerned. But equally worrying was the lack of action amongst everyone else! No breaking just continue to accelerate towards the hazard!

Luckily the HGV seemed to get back under control, but it's the nearest I've seen to a pile up for a long time.

The answer isn't a car or lorry full of gadgets that might make life safer, its driver standards and responsibilities for both sets of drivers. Don't drive an HGV when you're tired, and just because your car can do 90, doesn't mean that the driver is safe to do it.

 

[wyx087]

Don't drive an HGV when you're tired, and just because your car can do 90, doesn't mean that the driver is safe to do it.

Tiredness detection, and remove the human driver from equation.

 

[viv1969]

Tiredness detection, and remove the human driver from equation.

No thanks

 

[LongLensPhotography]

In general, I think HGV drivers are safer than the vast majority of car drivers.
But when an HGV stuffs it up, it makes headlines. When a car does the same thing, then it's pretty much ignored.

That said, HGV's do some pretty stupid things. One on my way home on Monday, one swevered from the inside lane to half in lane 3. No reason for it as far as the road was concerned. But equally worrying was the lack of action amongst everyone else! No breaking just continue to accelerate towards the hazard!

Luckily the HGV seemed to get back under control, but it's the nearest I've seen to a pile up for a long time.

The answer isn't a car or lorry full of gadgets that might make life safer, its driver standards and responsibilities for both sets of drivers. Don't drive an HGV when you're tired, and just because your car can do 90, doesn't mean that the driver is safe to do it.

Cars also make headlines. A nutter or a disoriented pensioner driving wrong way on M-way will always get well published. Cars with satnav in-built should stop in such circumstances right on the slipway.

I am pretty sure a decent version of lane assist will stop the lorry crossing the lanes right into the central reservation and over. This is the worst case scenario we are all so afraid.

Driver standards are important, but what else can you do in that regard. They are already required to take breaks, have required qualifications and all that. There are always nutters or sleepy loonies out there.

I had at least 2 close calls with lorries. One was being overtaken and for no reason started swerving at a sharp angle to lane 2. I am glad lane 3 was empty and I reacted in just enough time. The b*****d was probably deep asleep at 2 AM.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Everyone is better off on a train (or bus). Thousands of little metal boxes all going in the same direction with one person in them spewing out the exhaust from an engine each is madness.

Except when the almost empty bus just drives straight past the bus stop and the next one isn't for an hour - happened to me, I ended up running after it until it had to stop at a set of traffic lights and hammering on the door. The driver was completely unapologetic for driving past the stop.

Or the bus simply doesn't turn up, or arrives just before the next one (and hour later) is due. Conversation "are you five minutes early?" cheerful reply "oh no, I'm very, very late!"

Or it's 10.30pm and the next bus is in eight hours so you can't get home, unless you want to walk ten miles.

Or you need to go to a place 30 miles outside London, so you need to go walk, bus, bus, train, tube, train, walk. I cannot imagine why anyone would think going door to door in a vehicle occupied by one person is better than undertaking the journey above in a mere 250% of the time (assuming connections all work) required if travelling by car. The example would be me visiting my parents, and I live near a city with a direct train route into the centre of London - many people don't.

Public transport is madness and an exercise in frustration in my experience, unless you live in London or want to travel only during the working day + commuting times. London is a whole other world though, even at 11.30pm there are buses everywhere.

 

[Yv]

I disagree. I think it gives you a false sense of security. In my opinion, cars should have uncomfortable seats, no power steering, no radios/CD players, etc.


Steve.

In my opinion people with such views are better off on a train

in my experience, it is people with the former set of opinions that are far better, safer drivers than those with the latter.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Except when the almost empty bus just drives straight past the bus stop and the next one isn't for an hour - happened to me, I ended up running after it until it had to stop at a set of traffic lights and hammering on the door. The driver was completely unapologetic for driving past the stop.

Or the bus simply doesn't turn up, or arrives just before the next one (and hour later) is due. Conversation "are you five minutes early?" cheerful reply "oh no, I'm very, very late!"

Or it's 10.30pm and the next bus is in eight hours so you can't get home, unless you want to walk ten miles.

Or you need to go to a place 30 miles outside London, so you need to go walk, bus, bus, train, tube, train, walk. I cannot imagine why anyone would think going door to door in a vehicle occupied by one person is better than undertaking the journey above in a mere 250% of the time (assuming connections all work) required if travelling by car. The example would be me visiting my parents, and I live near a city with a direct train route into the centre of London - many people don't.

Public transport is madness and an exercise in frustration in my experience, unless you live in London or want to travel only during the working day + commuting times. London is a whole other world though, even at 11.30pm there are buses everywhere.

Yes. PT only really works in very few places. London (parts of it) could be one, but certainly much better examples are Geneva and Paris. These are few in between and could be considered outstanding exceptions on this planet.

P.S. Steve - I suggest you try travelling around outside of London. Try getting home at 1AM after climing some peaks for the sunset, then go from one suburb to another across the country to visit your relatives, and don't forget to buy some furniture from BQ or whatever. Also, there is some shopping to do - some 5-6 bags full of goodies to carry home. I'd love to see you coping there while chavs board with knives and fag joints.

 

[cambsno]

Sorry mate but gotta disagree with you there of course a few lorry drivers are muppets and the slow overtake thing in the middle lane is frustrating but most are ok and its car drivers that need more coppers to stop them doing stupid things

In my experience 10% of lorry drivers at most follow the 2nd rule. They say it takes a lot more distance to stop a truck, so why travel on my bumper or less than a cars length behind another lorry. That imo is stupid.

 

[LCPete]

In my experience 10% of lorry drivers at most follow the 2nd rule. They say it takes a lot more distance to stop a truck, so why travel on my bumper or less than a cars length behind another lorry. That imo is stupid.

Yes it is crazy the way they follow each other really close in the LH lane but I still believe that the standard of HGV driving is better than most other road user's
only the other day I had a moron in a range rover tailgating me while I was doing 70mph and he was really close to me in the Yaris trying to intimidate I guess

 

[viv1969]

Yes it is crazy the way they follow each other really close in the LH lane but I still believe that the standard of HGV driving is better than most other road user's
only the other day I had a moron in a range rover tailgating me while I was doing 70mph and he was really close

That's what the continental trucks do too.
Drives you up the wall and just about blinds you too. :rage:

 

[wyx087]

I cannot imagine why anyone would think going door to door in a vehicle occupied by one person is better than undertaking the journey above in a mere 250% of the time (assuming connections all work) required if travelling by car.

Ha, That just described my daily commute. N London to Luton.

Even when there's a train station next to where I live. I have to take the train INTO crowded London train station then switch train to come out again. Or suffer an hour of bus ride to the correct line.

In my experience 10% of lorry drivers at most follow the 2nd rule. They say it takes a lot more distance to stop a truck, so why travel on my bumper or less than a cars length behind another lorry. That imo is stupid.

Assumption would be the lorry in front will also take as long to stop.

Here's where radar based distance keeping assists come in handy.

 

[viv1969]

Here's where radar based distance keeping assists come in handy.

Or, folks could simply start taking responsibility for driving correctly without the need for fancy gagets and "assists".

 

[LongLensPhotography]

range rover tailgating me while I was doing 70mph and he was really close to me in the Yaris trying to intimidate I guess

Let me translate this for you. You were actually doing 63mph in the outside lane (or else he would just overtake) and he lost any hope you may voluntarily move over to the left. It is not justifiable to tail gate, but I can only sympathise when drivers of slow cars with wildly inaccurate speedoes slow down just a tad more and more to be sure. It is very common to see folk crawl at 35-40mph in NSL zone.

 

[viv1969]

Let me translate this for you. You were actually doing 63mph in the outside lane (or else he would just overtake) and he lost any hope you may voluntarily move over to the left. It is not justifiable to tail gate, but I can only sympathise when drivers of slow cars with wildly inaccurate speedoes slow down just a tad more and more to be sure. It is very common to see folk crawl at 35-40mph in NSL zone.

Oh dear.

 

[new2me]

Oh dear.

I was in the process of posting something a bit more aggressive than that, but will just give you a instead