Long term storage of digital images

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Ive been pondering the most secure, stable low maintenance and future proof method of keeping digital images. There are a lot of photos i want to pass down the generations, and i want to ensure that I have an archive that can be accessible and read in decades time.

I think that rules out traditional hard drives, having a mechanical / magnetic system seems a bad idea to try and store data. Not so sure about ssd drives.
I'm pretty sure that also rules out storing online. By low maintenance i mean no intervention at all form me, so no payment of fees, no logging into accounts to keep them alive, no responding to emails asking if i wish to transfer data to a new service or accept new terms.
Archival CD's and dvd's seem an option, but how standard is the data structure used on the media? How stable is the chemistry of the disc? Is it reasonable to think that dvd readers (or another method) will be around in 50 years time? 3.5" drives are still available new, but 5.25" are no longer made but available on eBay. 8" seem impossible to find.

Does anybody else have similar thoughts and have found a reasonable solution?

Regarding data formats, I think that storing as tiff and jpeg will be the best solution. Thoughts? I have considered native raw and dog, but think that tiff is the most future proof high quality.

PS, I know prints (when made and stored correctly) are a great option and i will be using that for the most important, but I have a lot of photos that i want to pass on and i am also looking for digital options.
 
I think the cloud is the way to go. No physical drive, data backed up and held in a variety of locations and accessible anywhere in the world. It’s pretty much becoming the industry standard and is future proof. Invest heavily now in a unit that might be out of date in 10 years or pay a monthly subscription.
 
what about using a CD/DVD disc? that is just one place I store mine others are on hard drives
 
Archive CD/DVD is probably the worst option of all after HDD.

I'd think cloud storage plus a set of USB sticks and an ability to copy that data off onto a new medium if USB sticks look like they're disappearing. Mines all on the HDD and backed up and now in flickr so it's in 3 places. I will do the USB stick thing at some point.
 
Rapscallion said:
Is it reasonable to think that dvd readers (or another method) will be around in 50 years time? 3.5" drives are still available new, but 5.25" are no longer made but available on eBay. 8" seem impossible to find.
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This is indeed the problem of finding such a solution, how long does any particular technology last nowadays, even upgrades to that technology can leave Ver 1.0 useless by the time Ver 10.0 comes out. Just saving in one format will not guarantee that format will be readable in 50 years time so you need some service that will move your files onto whatever becomes the acceptable media at the time ... and then will that service still be viable in 50 years time?
However there is one format that has stood the test of time in most cases ... printed photographs, I have some in albums that are over 50 years old and I have scanned and reproduced others where needed. :)
 
Rapscallion said:
Archival CD's and dvd's seem an option, but how standard is the data structure used on the media? How stable is the chemistry of the disc? Is it reasonable to think that dvd readers (or another method) will be around in 50 years time? 3.5" drives are still available new, but 5.25" are no longer made but available on eBay. 8" seem impossible to find.
Does anybody else have similar thoughts and have found a reasonable solution?
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Archival grade optical discs would seem to the "best" approach, but the very best "ODA" is really only within financial reach of professional digital archivist see the marketing stuff from Sony https://www.sony.co.uk/pro/products/archiving-storage-optical-disc-archive.

M-disc technology is much more affordable http://www.mdisc.com/ and see this article https://www.pcworld.com/article/293...ewed-your-data-good-for-a-thousand-years.html. Needs a compatible DVD/Blu-Ray writer/reader, but these are easy to find.

This is probably what I would go for as its maintenance free on a very stable media, so you could lock it in a vault somewhere, and be confident the content would be safe, but best practice in any archive would be to regularly move the files onto whatever is the best current media, and take that opportunity to reverify the content.
 
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Blank_Canvas said:
I think the cloud is the way to go. No physical drive, data backed up and held in a variety of locations and accessible anywhere in the world. It’s pretty much becoming the industry standard and is future proof. Invest heavily now in a unit that might be out of date in 10 years or pay a monthly subscription.
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I currently use cloud (crash plan and Amazon photos). The question I am asking how can I store photos that can be accessed a long time in the future should something happen to me. I don’t think a cloud service will offer this.
 
realspeed said:
what about using a CD/DVD disc? that is just one place I store mine others are on hard drives
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That is a probable route. But how can I ensure the media can be read, say 30 or more years from now?
 
srichards said:
Archive CD/DVD is probably the worst option of all after HDD.

I'd think cloud storage plus a set of USB sticks and an ability to copy that data off onto a new medium if USB sticks look like they're disappearing. Mines all on the HDD and backed up and now in flickr so it's in 3 places. I will do the USB stick thing at some point.
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Hi. Same comments as a above really. I already have a backup system. Looking for an option that will require no input or management from me for long term storage for use by future generations if my other data doesn’t survive.

I should note that this isn’t a backup, but could be thought of as a digital time capsule, so needs to be as durable and as readable as possible.
 
gramps said:
This is indeed the problem of finding such a solution, how long does any particular technology last nowadays, even upgrades to that technology can leave Ver 1.0 useless by the time Ver 10.0 comes out. Just saving in one format will not guarantee that format will be readable in 50 years time so you need some service that will move your files onto whatever becomes the acceptable media at the time ... and then will that service still be viable in 50 years time?
However there is one format that has stood the test of time in most cases ... printed photographs, I have some in albums that are over 50 years old and I have scanned and reproduced others where needed. :)
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Appreciate there is a risk as to formats. But, I hope that given the amount of users we have of current media, there will be some current media and data formats that will be readable in the long term.
 
gramps said:
This is indeed the problem of finding such a solution, how long does any particular technology last nowadays, even upgrades to that technology can leave Ver 1.0 useless by the time Ver 10.0 comes out. Just saving in one format will not guarantee that format will be readable in 50 years time so you need some service that will move your files onto whatever becomes the acceptable media at the time ... and then will that service still be viable in 50 years time?
However there is one format that has stood the test of time in most cases ... printed photographs, I have some in albums that are over 50 years old and I have scanned and reproduced others where needed. :)
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Like Gramps, I have about 30 odd years worth of photos printed up and in albums, I have some on flickr that not overly fussed about, some on DVD/USB but my most important photos I print up and put in the album.
 
Prints - possibly the only way to avoid erasure should something like an EMP occur. For digital storage, multiple SSD copies that get checked regularly and copied to new storage media as and when they become available/affordable. Probably worth keeping file formats updated as well - it's possible that JPEG will be outdated in the future and no longer recognised. Of course, there's always the projection and copying onto film option...
 
Rapscallion said:
Appreciate there is a risk as to formats. But, I hope that given the amount of users we have of current media, there will be some current media and data formats that will be readable in the long term.
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I still have some Betamax video tapes, I think I might be able to find an old unit which 'might' be compatible with my tapes, though they might suffer visual degradation orI might need to get a professional service to transfer them to something else ... many people used Betamax in the early days.
 
gramps said:
I still have some Betamax video tapes, I think I might be able to find an old unit which 'might' be compatible with my tapes, though they might suffer visual degradation orI might need to get a professional service to transfer them to something else ... many people used Betamax in the early days.
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My first digital camera was a kodak DC240, 1.3mpixels, 1280x960 resolution. Looking back on those family moments taken with them are priceless, but oh the poor quality/colours when viewed today
 
Rapscallion said:
Looking for an option that will require no input or management from me for long term storage for use by future generations if my other data doesn’t survive.
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In that case it has to be archival prints.

Or maybe donate your archive to a museum if you really think 'future generations' are going to give a toss about your photos when you're dead! :LOL:
 
I've been looking at this recently and IMHO there is no definitive answer as nobody knows what the tech wil be like in 5, 10, 15 years nevermind more.
My solution is to go with cloud storage for reliability of back up (I'm the weak link there!) and ease of use and if a better option comes along the data can always me moved.
With regards to file format, I find it hard to imagine support for the current content vanishing in futue software given the volume of data out there. It would been converting all existing content to a new format surely?
 
Ed Sutton said:
In that case it has to be archival prints.

Or maybe donate your archive to a museum if you really think 'future generations' are going to give a toss about your photos when you're dead! :LOL:
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Very unlikely! I am thinking of preserving them for family.

Prints are being made, but I will unlikely print all family pictures I have so am looking for an additional,way of passing along the photos.
 
Rapscallion said:
Very unlikely! I am thinking of preserving them for family.

Prints are being made, but I will unlikely print all family pictures I have so am looking for an additional,way of passing along the photos.
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I've got pics on CDs which are over ten years old that have outlived a couple of hardrives. Discs might be worth using as a way to store jpegs of everything (maybe at a reduced resolution) with prints or some other method as the main archive. CDs are likely to be readable for some time in the future and more likely to be found and looked at by family members than some cloudbased storage. Sort of the digital version of an old shoebox full of prints and slides. IMO
 
Ed Sutton said:
I've got pics on CDs which are over ten years old that have outlived a couple of hardrives. Discs might be worth using as a way to store jpegs of everything (maybe at a reduced resolution) with prints or some other method as the main archive. CDs are likely to be readable for some time in the future and more likely to be found and looked at by family members than some cloudbased storage. Sort of the digital version of an old shoebox full of prints and slides. IMO
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Have you checked CD's that old are still readable? I ask because ordinary CD/DVD-R/RW doesn't have that big a life expectancy, but you can get archive grade discs which may well be a good suggestion
 
boyfalldown said:
Have you checked CD's that old are still readable? I ask because ordinary CD/DVD-R/RW doesn't have that big a life expectancy, but you can get archive grade discs which may well be a good suggestion
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That's how I know they're still readable. ;)
 
Rapscallion said:
Hi. Same comments as a above really. I already have a backup system. Looking for an option that will require no input or management from me for long term storage for use by future generations if my other data doesn’t survive.
Click to expand...

This is why my suggestion of m-disc is ideal, as its the only archive system that doesn't need regular maintenance.
 
I'd go the archival print route - although digital prints haven't been around long enough for the accelerated aging tests be be proved reliable (unsuspected factors are still possible to a pessimist like me) and photographic prints using modern materials have similarly not been around long enough to know that they are as secure as the older materials.

Anything connected to a computer is ephemeral. Interfaces change and connecting still functioning devices will require a device driver that may (probably won't) function with a new version of Windows. How many people still use XP simply because they have essential hardware for which no newer versions of the drivers are available and which Microsoft chose to make obsolete by changing the way drivers interface (I assume that's why we get incompatibilites with each new version of Windows, rather as they famously made the backup/restore file format incompatible with each new version of DOS).

There's a long list of now obsolete ways of attaching hardware to computers and nothing can be assumed to be safe for the future. Anything which requires a manufaturered device to see/read the data is at risk, unless you're prepared to copy and recopy everytime things change (which the OP isn't). Prints are the only objects that don't require an external device to see them. I don't trust cloud services long term as ultimately they depend on either the suppliers remaining in business, the suppliers' ability to manage backups correctly (I recall a recent example when some customers lose data due to a failure in this area), and the suppliers' not having geographically localised storage (hurricanes/fire/flood/bomb etc). Not to mention payment of present and future fees.
 
Nod said:
Prints - possibly the only way to avoid erasure should something like an EMP occur. ...
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If its that big then worrying about my photos will be no 99 on the list...:banana:
 
myotis said:
This is why my suggestion of m-disc is ideal, as its the only archive system that doesn't need regular maintenance.
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Even accepting that the media will last that long, what about the readers? At the moment, I can't say I've seen the disks available in PC World and the like, which is a good test of popularity, and if they aren't mainstream and reach critical mass there may not be many options for the hardware to read them. Even if we grant that this isn't a problem, will the hardware still be made even 50 years down the line? Unless it's still being made, it's virtually certain that the interface used today will be incompatible with comnputers made (say) 15 years from now.
 
Some of these points are already covered however...
  • Don’t rely on a single format. Store on a HDD and copies on a DVD / BluRay. Backup to the cloud is a good idea; but don’t forget that services close - witness Amazon closing their Prime unlimited service and other “large” services closing their consumer services.
  • Don’t rely on a single copy in any format either.
  • Keep the RAW files; but also store copies in more generic formats such as jpeg and/or DNG. The generic formats are more likely to be readable than Canon or Nikon, etc RAW.
  • Keep your backups refreshed. A HDD isn’t a bad long term storage method (major film studios use them) but ever 1-2 years copy to a new drive. Look at “special” archival drives too rather than general ones.
  • SSD are worse than HDD for archival. Memory sticks are even worse!
  • Ideally store hardware too - if you use MDisc for example buy a spare drive you know will read the discs. At the extreme you might need to keep old computers too - if USB ever gets replaced keep an old computer which can use it.
Archival storage takes time and effort. You can’t just make a copy and leave it. Use a combination of methods and keep them update.
 
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StephenM said:
Even accepting that the media will last that long, what about the readers? At the moment, I can't say I've seen the disks available in PC World and the like, which is a good test of popularity, and if they aren't mainstream and reach critical mass there may not be many options for the hardware to read them. Even if we grant that this isn't a problem, will the hardware still be made even 50 years down the line? Unless it's still being made, it's virtually certain that the interface used today will be incompatible with comnputers made (say) 15 years from now.
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I think it is standard dvd technology to read.
 
Rapscallion said:
Looking for an option that will require no input or management from me for long term storage for use by future generations if my other data doesn’t survive.
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The “no input or management” is where most archival suggestions fall down. Sorry but you do need to keep on top of an archive ... leaving it for 5-10 years then wondering if it’s still readable is a recipe for it being worthless. You need to spend some time each year checking it and updating it.
 
StephenM said:
Even accepting that the media will last that long, what about the readers? At the moment, I can't say I've seen the disks available in PC World and the like, which is a good test of popularity, and if they aren't mainstream and reach critical mass there may not be many options for the hardware to read them. Even if we grant that this isn't a problem, will the hardware still be made even 50 years down the line? Unless it's still being made, it's virtually certain that the interface used today will be incompatible with comnputers made (say) 15 years from now.
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Well, I think there are two issues, one is the integrity of the data and the second is accessibility of the data. Mi-discs have a tested mean life expectancy of 1332 years. If the data is "there" then you can work out how you read it. If the data has decayed then it doesn't matter if the technology to read it, is still available or not. As you say all technology is ephemeral and I suspect whatever option is chosen, reading the data may be an issue in years to come. I would therefore be more concerned about the data integrity aspect than the readability aspect.

The problem with prints, is that unless they are archivally processed and carefully stored then they too are ephemeral, and where as you can archive 1000s of images onto a disc, most of us would be very limited in terms of costs and storage with the number of prints we can store. But I don't think this is an either/or situation. I only really like photographs as prints, and I would be doing bulk archiving onto m-discs along with printing my best photographs.

Not sure if PCWorld is a good arbiter of how popular specialist archival disc technology (in terms of the discs being available) might be, but most/all? modern blu-ray drives I would have thought were now capable of using m-disc technology.

Verbatim offer a list of drives/

http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/en/prod/mdisc-lifetime-archival-bdxl-100gb--single-disc-43833/
 
PS in terms of long term data storage: tape is still the gold standard. But tape drives are very expensive.
 
Eloise said:
PS in terms of long term data storage: tape is still the gold standard. But tape drives are very expensive.
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From what I have been reading over the last few weeks as I have been looking into this (and my expertise doesn't go beyond my reading) I thought that optical disc options (e.g. ODA) were now considered the better option over magnetic media. A lot to do with the money saved by reduced maintenance costs, as well as increased media robustness.
 
My cd/dvds are as good as new even after 15 years which is why i suggested it
 
myotis said:
Well, I think there are two issues, one is the integrity of the data and the second is accessibility of the data. Mi-discs have a tested mean life expectancy of 1332 years. If the data is "there" then you can work out how you read it. If the data has decayed then it doesn't matter if the technology to read it, is still available or not. As you say all technology is ephemeral and I suspect whatever option is chosen, reading the data may be an issue in years to come. I would therefore be more concerned about the data integrity aspect than the readability aspect.
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In my opinion both matter. It's no use having data present if you can't read it; and unless it's possible to produce a DIY Mi-disc reader, then you're dependent on others to make them for you. You can't keep one in reserve because the connection method to a computer might be an obsolete one unsupported by motherboards, operating systems or drivers. If I were looking for an archival method that required no input, I'd certainly not go for one that required me to make a reader a few years down the line. If you respond (as logically you should) that this would be a problem for the next generation, my cynical reply would be that to go to that much trouble they would have to be convinced in advance that it was worth the time and effort of doing so.

As to CDs/DVDs - my experience is obviously atypical in that I found that a disc couldn't be read within a week of recording. I might have been unlucky, but to admit that means admitting that backups using them are a matter of luck, and I prefer greater certainty.
 
myotis said:
This is why my suggestion of m-disc is ideal, as its the only archive system that doesn't need regular maintenance.
Click to expand...

That looks like it may be a reasonable solution to the problem. Has anybody here actual experience of using these?
 
Rapscallion said:
Prints are being made, but I will unlikely print all family pictures I have so am looking for an additional,way of passing along the photos.
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Not worth printing = not worth keeping.
 
StephenM said:
In my opinion both matter. It's no use having data present if you can't read it;

As to CDs/DVDs - my experience is obviously atypical in that I found that a disc couldn't be read within a week of recording. I might have been unlucky, but to admit that means admitting that backups using them are a matter of luck, and I prefer greater certainty.
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I agree that both matter, but the data is the crucial component, because if it is still intact, it at least keeps the doorway open to finding some way of reading it. If the data is gone then it doesn't matter whether the disc can be read or not. And every physical form of media may well prove challenging to read in the future. But data stored in archival quality optical media stands more chance of still being around into the future than data stored in magnetic media, unless the magnetic media is carefully maintained.

On the assumption that your comments on reliability refer to dye based CD/DVDs then this isn't relevant to the reliability of M-discs.
 
Ed Sutton said:
We don't know what people might want to look at in thirty years time.
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This is true, photos of my parents/grandparents age may have seemed irrelevant and trivial to them but to me are fascinating.
 
Rapscallion said:
That looks like it may be a reasonable solution to the problem. Has anybody here actual experience of using these?
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I admit I haven't, but it seemed the obvious solution, from what I have ben reading over the last few weeks looking into this, Every other option seemed to have obvious drawbacks.
 
ecoleman said:
I have an idea. Actually it’s not my idea it’s been done for years.

Print them.
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But that brings with it a whole new set of problems of archival processing and storage, as well as costing more to produce and needing more space to store.

Given my own experiences of "family" photographs, many of which have been lost for various reasons, I'm not convinced this is any more secure than the m-disc approach I suggested, even though I am old fashioned enough to believe a photograph isn't a photograph until it has been printed !
 
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