Location lighting advise for freezing action/fashion stuff.

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I guess I should edit my original post and be a little more precise.

I need some advice on some location lights for freezing action, i.e dancers and such like & general fashion type work. I'd also like the possibility to overpower midday sun if possible.

Most likely a two head set up, what options should I be looking at for around the 2k spend mark, if anyone would mind taking the time to explain the plus and minus' of any kits I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.
 
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So far I feel like Quadra's are the way forward possibly?
 
I make a lot of use of the Lencarta Safari, and can give some accounts of my experience, along with some examples if you wish.

Can't really make a comparison for you, as when I did my initial research, the Safari ticked all the boxes for me, and that's why I bought it.
 
I make a lot of use of the Lencarta Safari, and can give some accounts of my experience, along with some examples if you wish.

Can't really make a comparison for you, as when I did my initial research, the Safari ticked all the boxes for me, and that's why I bought it.

Thanks Michael,

I've actually had one of the safari kits in the past (should have mentioned that). While I have no problems with it at all, I'm just wondering what else is around. Before I used the safari for mostly portrait stuff, so never found out how it would cope with action based things.
 
your options are pretty much lencarta safari, lencarta discovery, jinbei discovery, elinchrom quadra, elinchrom ranger, profoto acuteb, hensel porty, bron mobil.

Other options are a tronix pack with studio lights plugged in, or the murky world of generators, or bowens heads with the travelpak.

The ranger, acuteb, porty and mobil are all going to run you between £1.7 and 2.5k for a setup of either one or two heads, and 600-1200ws of juice between them. All are well spec'd and reliable.
 
Did you use it for location work before, or as an ultra mobile studio?

More as a mobile studio in the past to be honest, it was a cheaper way of getting a ring flash as well :lol:

your options are pretty much lencarta safari, lencarta discovery, jinbei discovery, elinchrom quadra, elinchrom ranger, profoto acuteb, hensel porty, bron mobil.

Other options are a tronix pack with studio lights plugged in, or the murky world of generators, or bowens heads with the travelpak.

The ranger, acuteb, porty and mobil are all going to run you between £1.7 and 2.5k for a setup of either one or two heads, and 600-1200ws of juice between them. All are well spec'd and reliable.

Thanks Dave, very helpful indeed. Is there one of the above you would recommend more than another? and for what reason. I feel this could turn into a right mine field, so many choices...
 
Let's start at the beginning, and equipment belongs at the end, because your choices have to be informed by your needs.

Overpowering mid day sun isn't that hard. To do it well (easily?) you need to start with a suitable camera and the right means of synching it to the flash.
First of all, you need a camera that will work at a relatively high shutter speed, because obviously the shorter the shutter speed, the less effect the ambient light will have at any given aperture, and the less flash power you'll need.
The ideal choice has to be a medium format camera with a leaf shutter, or if you're using a small digi camera then the old Nikon D700, which can be used at high shutter speeds, is worth thinking about - if it will produce the image quality you need.
Otherwise think in terms of a camera that will synch reliably at at least 1/250th.

And use a radio trigger that doesn't have a delay in the circuit, i.e. a PW. If you haven't got one, use a synch lead instead.

Next, what type of modifiers will you need to use, and at what distance?
Softboxes don't actually eat light but they do spread it around enormously, so if you can avoid using them then you can manage with less raw power.
If you're mixing ambient with flash then you can usually get away with beauty dishes and/or high intensity reflectors, both of which are very light-efficient, especially when used at short distances.

Given a fairly short shutter speed and the means of getting the most of it, you'll probably be able to manage with 600 ws. Less than that may be pushing your luck.

Next question - how short does the flash duration really have to be? I don't think that there's a system on the market that can really freeze closeup dancers, but often it's good enough just to get most of the subject sharp and acceptable or even better to have blurred hands and hair. If you really do need the shortest possible flash duration then you may have to look at the Profoto b, but they aren't cheap, although you could consider hiring instead of buying unless you need to use them frequently.

And another option is to combine hotshoe flashguns with battery powered generator flash. Use the generator flash to control and shape the light and use the hotshoe flashguns at 1/4 power or less to create a sharp underlying image mixed with any blur that results from the generator flash. 1/4 power is about as high as you can go to get short flash durations.
 
Let's start at the beginning, and equipment belongs at the end, because your choices have to be informed by your needs.
+1.

This is all very expensive territory.

I wouldn't want to recommend any one in particular (I'm in no way qualified to do so), they're all professional systems with very good specifications, so to a certain extent your specific requirements, even down to portability and built in radio triggers, will decide what is the best for you - and it may well be that you don't need 100% of the performance of these at all times, so the few times that you do (say) need really high duration, if especially if you're near london, you could hire, profoto hire is common and affordable.
 
Hi Garry, I get what your saying;

Overpowering mid day sun isn't that hard. To do it well (easily?) you need to start with a suitable camera and the right means of synching it to the flash.
First of all, you need a camera that will work at a relatively high shutter speed, because obviously the shorter the shutter speed, the less effect the ambient light will have at any given aperture, and the less flash power you'll need.
The ideal choice has to be a medium format camera with a leaf shutter, or if you're using a small digi camera then the old Nikon D700, which can be used at high shutter speeds, is worth thinking about - if it will produce the image quality you need.
Otherwise think in terms of a camera that will synch reliably at at least 1/250th.

Completely understand what your saying here, however I have at my disposal a 5DmkII with a max sync of 200th that will have to do, I'm done messing with film, and I'm unfortunately in no position to be buying medium format digi backs :( I know its not the best, but something I'll have to work with.

And use a radio trigger that doesn't have a delay in the circuit, i.e. a PW. If you haven't got one, use a synch lead instead.

Not a problem, got some PW's around, and I'm not scared of cracking out the old synch chord :)

Next, what type of modifiers will you need to use, and at what distance?
Softboxes don't actually eat light but they do spread it around enormously, so if you can avoid using them then you can manage with less raw power.
If you're mixing ambient with flash then you can usually get away with beauty dishes and/or high intensity reflectors, both of which are very light-efficient, especially when used at short distances.

Possibly on occasion a medium size octa, in reality on in the early morning/evenings as like you say you tend to loose control of the light in very bright conditions with softboxes. I'm likely to stick with the high intensity reflectors and beauty dishes 90% of the time.

Given a fairly short shutter speed and the means of getting the most of it, you'll probably be able to manage with 600 ws. Less than that may be pushing your luck.

I have to agree, I don't really like the idea of dipping much under 600w, which is why the quadra at 400w puts me off, or I would have a set tomorrow... :( Now what the difference between 600w and 400w in practical terms means, I dont really know.

Next question - how short does the flash duration really have to be? I don't think that there's a system on the market that can really freeze closeup dancers, but often it's good enough just to get most of the subject sharp and acceptable or even better to have blurred hands and hair. If you really do need the shortest possible flash duration then you may have to look at the Profoto b, but they aren't cheap, although you could consider hiring instead of buying unless you need to use them frequently.

This is a good point, and one I hadn't really thought about... I probably dont need a super fast duration, more like wanting it for the sake of it as often happens. Profoto B, most likely out of my price range, and to be honest I doubt I'd make full use of them. The Hensel option does look very nice, but god knows where in the UK to get hold of them lol.

Thanks for taking the time to reply though Garry, really appreciate it.
 
+1.

This is all very expensive territory.

I wouldn't want to recommend any one in particular (I'm in no way qualified to do so), they're all professional systems with very good specifications, so to a certain extent your specific requirements, even down to portability and built in radio triggers, will decide what is the best for you - and it may well be that you don't need 100% of the performance of these at all times, so the few times that you do (say) need really high duration, if especially if you're near london, you could hire, profoto hire is common and affordable.

Crossed posts there, but I get what your saying. Guess I should really have a think what I REALLY need... hmm. Like you say I probably wouldn't make use of all the features 100% of the time, its just nice to feel like they are available.
 
The ideal choice has to be a medium format camera with a leaf shutter, or if you're using a small digi camera then the old Nikon D700, which can be used at high shutter speeds, is worth thinking about - if it will produce the image quality you need.

Garry actually meant the old Nikon D70 which is 6Mp rather than the much newer D700, and was down to an errant twitch of his finger.
It's ideally suited for off camera flash work such as yours, as the shutter is an mechanical/electronic hybrid one, rather than the mechanical affair (also the D70s, D40 and D50 have the same shutter mechanism).
 
Garry actually meant the old Nikon D70 which is 6Mp rather than the much newer D700, and was down to an errant twitch of his finger.
It's ideally suited for off camera flash work such as yours, as the shutter is an mechanical/electronic hybrid one, rather than the mechanical affair (also the D70s, D40 and D50 have the same shutter mechanism).

Ah yea, I'm no Nikon expert, but I do remember something about them syncing at silly speeds :)
 
Garry actually meant the old Nikon D70 which is 6Mp rather than the much newer D700, and was down to an errant twitch of his finger.
It's ideally suited for off camera flash work such as yours, as the shutter is an mechanical/electronic hybrid one, rather than the mechanical affair (also the D70s, D40 and D50 have the same shutter mechanism).
I did, thanks for that. Old fingers:)
 
Dave

Just out of interest Why do you say Bowens Heads & Travel-Pak are Murky?

They are better than some of the others you mentioned.
 
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nah, generators are murky, too little information floating about on them etcetcetc.

bowens travelpaks work, but it's a clumsy system compared to a pack/head system really, and slow recharges and short battery life :(
 
nah, generators are murky, too little information floating about on them etcetcetc.

bowens travelpaks work, but it's a clumsy system compared to a pack/head system really, and slow recharges and short battery life :(

Does this mean you have extensive use with the bowens then and from this experience you have made up your own opinion, I've got bowens 500Pros which have the fastest flash duration out of the Gemni range and with that head and a 40cm BD I managed to freeze a model in a lake flicking her hair and moving about, which is not dance but she was moving pretty bloody fast lol.

Recycle time is about on par with the other systems mentioned above & the only way your going to get super fast recycle times is if you hit the Profoto or Broncolor systems everything else takes a few seconds to recharge end of.

The bowens you can swap the battery out just by pressing two buttons on the side, removing the control unit and then putting the it onto a new battery(incidently 200+ shots taken on location at the weekend used up 1light on the pack that was 200 full power 500w flashes, sods law though I'll turn it on again and another light will go out but still your back in profoto and broncolor if your gonna fire loads and loads of shots as the recycle time on all of the above is slow in comparison] & all the gemini heads have the port on the back to power them, so yeah I guess pretty clumsy system.

Now I'm sure garry can give you more information then me but I've also owned the Safari and at the end of the day the safari & the bownes are much to a muchness both very reliable, both interchangeable batterys etcc... Only thing i don't know is the flash duration of the Safari heads.


P.S offered you to borrow them but just noticed your in sheffield lol but feel free to drive 4hours down souf :P for a play lol.
 
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elinchrom ranger and quadra should be what you need.

That's the obvious choice I think, without knowing what the OP needs in terms of portability. There's location 'studio' battery packs stuff, and then there's truly mobile shoulder packs. Elinchroms have fast flash durations too, up to 1/6000sec t0.5.

In terms of x-sync, Pocket Wizard Mini/Flex offers a useful increase with HyperSync, with no loss of power. You don't get much more out of the OP's 5D2 with its big slow shutter (no more than 1/250sec I think) but you can get a 1D-series camera up to 1/500sec, or 1/400sec out of a 7/40/50D etc. Also slightly enhanced high speed sync power.

Just a thought, if all-out power isn't a priority to beat the sun. I was shooting kids over the weekend, in bright sun using hot-shoe flash into a silver brolly but only as fill-in. By dropping the ISO I was able to keep below the x-sync ceiling without needing HSS. It worked well, and I had the benefit of E-TTL tracking the exposure as the little nipperz ran around, plus HSS as an option, and potentially fast flash durations. You can double up the power with two guns, and speed up the recycle with an accessory battery pack.

It works really well when you don't need loads of power, and you have all those other benefits/options available if that appeals. I'd recommend it for close range shooting, especially if it's not bright sun or you can find some shade. Just a suggestion, but it's maybe not the complete professional solution the OP is looking for.
 
Recycle time is about on par with the other systems mentioned above & the only way your going to get super fast recycle times is if you hit the Profoto or Broncolor systems everything else takes a few seconds to recharge end of.

Ellinchrom RX Recharge time, on half power (550ws) is 1.4 secs. According to the Bowens spec for the travelpak running a 500ws head, it's 5 secs.
Personally for me that was too long, and why I ended up with the Ranger RX, plus I don't need mains powered lights.

To the OP, I wouldn't be put off by the 400ws Quadra, it's only half a stop down from 600ws, and as soon as you put any sort of modifier on any light, the levels of output will not necessarily be the same. I.e. two different makes of reflector won't give identical light outputs, so your 600ws head with inefficient reflector could end up the same output as a 400ws head with a more efficient reflector.
 
Thank you all for your continued advice, my brain is pointing me towards the Elinchrom Quadra or Ranger... I haven't looked into the finer details yet, but I think its more likely I'd want one of the Rangers. I'm not sure its the best value for money when compared to the kits you can get with the Quadra's i.e two heads, two battery packs, triggers etc... for the price of one battery and head in the Ranger. I need to do some more reading around I think.
 
Quadras and ranger are pretty much the norm in action sports where is pretty much a necessity for high T1 duration.

Not sure if you have seen the flash raw review? Interesting reading and shows the Miami sun being overpowered. http://flashraw.com/review-elinchrom-quadra-rangers/

If I was in a position that is where I would be with the money just because of portability as much as anything else.
 
Quadras and ranger are pretty much the norm in action sports where is pretty much a necessity for high T1 duration.

Not sure if you have seen the flash raw review? Interesting reading and shows the Miami sun being overpowered. http://flashraw.com/review-elinchrom-quadra-rangers/

If I was in a position that is where I would be with the money just because of portability as much as anything else.

very impressive thanks for the link :)
 
Think I'm heading towards the Ranger RX - I could certainly make use of the power, the recycling times not to bad on the speed version, and the flash duration for the type of 'action' stuff should be more than enough since it wont be anything to fast paced.
 
Rob,

Not sure if anyone mentioned the Alien Bees Einstein unit. It's reviewed here and the price/performance looks pretty damn good. Should fall easily into your budget.
 
Rob,

Not sure if anyone mentioned the Alien Bees Einstein unit. It's reviewed here and the price/performance looks pretty damn good. Should fall easily into your budget.
It's interesting, although I don't know whether or not they've managed to cure the problems with it yet.

Assuming that they have, then the remaining problem will be lack of power - or at least there may be a power problem if short flash durations are needed because it needs to be turned down to at least 1/4 power (160ws) or even 1/8th power (80ws) for the IGBT controller to really work its magic.
 
It's interesting, although I don't know whether or not they've managed to cure the problems with it yet.

Assuming that they have, then the remaining problem will be lack of power - or at least there may be a power problem if short flash durations are needed because it needs to be turned down to at least 1/4 power (160ws) or even 1/8th power (80ws) for the IGBT controller to really work its magic.

Thanks Garry, I didn't know about any problems with it. This was a unit I was considering buying. Do you have any links to alternate reviews that highlight the problem(s) you mentioned? Rob Galbraith's review mentioned an update but I'm not sure that addressed the issues you were referring to.
 
There is in fact a reference to the problems in that article
This flash has launched, however, with two hardware shortcomings. The first affects PocketWizard users only, the second can affect any Einstein 640 owner that switches on the modeling light. The shortcomings are:

Internal circuitry that emits significant levels of RF noise at U.S./Canada PocketWizard frequencies. CE PocketWizard frequencies are also affected, though somewhat less so.

A modeling light that can produce excessive heat when the flash is angled downward, operated without a reflector attached or with a reflector that has a grid mounted. The Einstein 640 can be damaged if used any of these three ways and the modeling light is set brighter than 125 watts. Customers of Paul C. Buff Europe and Paul C. Buff Australia have been informed that shipments of the Einstein 640 by these subsidiaries have been suspended because of the modeling light problem.
Paul C Buff announced that they had overcome the problems with their mark 2 version in Oct 2010. As I haven't had a play with the latest version I don't know whether it's OK or not. Perhaps the UK importers can answer that one
 
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Some interesting tests on the Einstein 640, on that link.

The two things I'm getting from it are that for freezing action it's far better than any other studio-type head, and far more powerful than any hot-shoe gun. And secondly, all t.5 flash duration times for regular studio heads (ie everything apart from the Einstein 640) are completely meaningless in terms of action-stopping potential.

I posted some images showing this a couple of months ago. Basically, unless the tail of the pulse is quenched by IGBT (as it is with the Einstein 640 and all hot-shoe guns at anything less than full power output) then you're going to get some blurring regardless of quoted t.5 duration.

Just thinking out loud, I wonder if using second-curtain sync would help with that? To get effectively better action-stopping out of conventional studio flash by using the second curtain to effectively quench the tail mechanically? Maybe I'll give it a go to see what happens. Might need to get lucky with the precise timing of the flash pulse, but I seem to recall that the PW Mini/Flex also has a second-curtain optimising feature, but I haven't got one to try.

Edit: just thinking about this theory some more, and from what I know about the kind of very brief timings invloved, I suspect that while the theory might be sound, in reality the flash will be too fast for the lumbering old shutter to catch it and clip it, on anything but maybe the slowest flashes and the fastest shutters... :(

Double edit: forget that cunning plan - doesn't work :thumbsdown: Just tried it with Elinchrom studio heads and a spinning target attached to a food mixer. Plenty of blurring, but no noticeable difference using either first or second curtain sync :(
 
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Buy the einstein Heads from Alien bees, they are simple great.
 
Just something to add, i have the Safari with the Safari head also the ringflash, fired with my pocket wizard they both sync right up to 1/8000th! not saying thats very practical, but it works none the less..
 
then you're going to get some blurring regardless of quoted t.5 duration.

T5 is misleading always though. Why don't they ever quote the T1? (actual flash duration). For anyone who may not know you need to divide the t5 by 3. This gives the actual speed of a whole flash pop.

e.g. T5. time of 1/1500 sounds great for action, but in fact the actual full flash duration is nearer 1/500 second which is not quick enough. Just another example of companies bending the truth with spec.
 
T5 is misleading always though. Why don't they ever quote the T1? (actual flash duration). For anyone who may not know you need to divide the t5 by 3. This gives the actual speed of a whole flash pop.

e.g. T5. time of 1/1500 sounds great for action, but in fact the actual full flash duration is nearer 1/500 second which is not quick enough. Just another example of companies bending the truth with spec.

Absolutely. Link to the thread I referred to above, showing what a t.5 time of 1/1200sec looks like in terms of action-stopping potential, compared to different shutter speeds. As you say, it's more like 1/500sec in this example, posts #18 and #19 http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=300521
 
T5 is misleading always though. Why don't they ever quote the T1? (actual flash duration). For anyone who may not know you need to divide the t5 by 3. This gives the actual speed of a whole flash pop.

e.g. T5. time of 1/1500 sounds great for action, but in fact the actual full flash duration is nearer 1/500 second which is not quick enough. Just another example of companies bending the truth with spec.
I sort of agree with you - but only up to a point.
t.1 time is arguably more accurate than t.5, but it isn't always correct to say that the t.5 time is 3x that of the t.1 - it depends on the make and the design.
There are some (many) flash heads where the power and colour of the light degrades fairly slowly, but there are others where it degrades very rapidly and the colour of the light very quickly passes into the invisible, almost infra red area of the spectrum. With these flashes, the t.1 and the t.5 times aren't very different from each other. The problem of course is that t.5 has long been the standard way of expressing flash duration, it does suit the manufacturers to use this standard, but it also makes it difficult for anyone else to use the t.1 means of expression.

fraggle101 Just something to add, i have the Safari with the Safari head also the ringflash, fired with my pocket wizard they both sync right up to 1/8000th! not saying thats very practical, but it works none the less..
With the ringflash, the flash duration is long because of the physical length of the flash tube, which means that with some cameras (combined with the PW or when using a sync cable) there is enough time for the shutter to complete its cycle during the flash duration. Not sure though with the 'ordinary' Safari head, I need to test this for myself.
 
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