arad85
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You say that like it's a crime to be - in any way, shape or form - right...
Linux why?
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ancient_mariner
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No - I say it like someone who has watched someone else's way of doing things repeatedly picked apart, apparently to prove them wrong beyond the point of usefulness to the discussion.
arad85
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Just goes to show we all have different ideas as to what is useful to the discussion. The World would be a dull place etc.....
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It would. It just seemed to me you were determined to prove Pete's use of one particular OS wrong, regardless of what he said. Despite the fact that these choices could be based on simple logic, there's often a complicated set of reasons why we chose certain things, and sometimes we may not even be aware of the drivers. There comes a point where it can be good to just let things go - like Neil G & my disagreement over whether machines slow down over time with just the normal updates being installed. His (and others) experience and training say no, my (and others) experience says yes. AFAIK neither of us care enough to keep arguing.
arad85
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Perhaps you should reread the posts. I have never once said his choice was wrong, just the reasons he used to justify that choice were suspect. We've had the following reasons mentioned:
- Access to Open Source software - all of which is also available on Windows
- Cost of rebuying the OS 1 - well, he'd already paid for the OS, just that the disk was borked
- Cost of rebuying the OS 2 - nope... not needed as long as you have the license key
- Cost of appropriate hardware - yup, I could agree with that - Linux runs on lesser hardware - except that wasn't mentioned as a reason it was chosen for install - the reason chosen was the disk was borked and he didn't want to pay for the license (see points above)
The problem to me is these are often repeated when in fact they often don't hold up to scrutiny, and - IMHO - are worth discussing or whatever word you'd use for it.
I'll still stand by my view: it makes little difference which OS is used 95% of the time, it's the 5% of the time where I think Windows is better (wider hardware support, wider software support, fewer UI issues, wider knowledge in the community, easier to get someone to fix, etc...). I use - and would recommend others to use - Windows for day-to-day usage because of that 5%. If you want to use a different OS that's fine - and I have more than enough experience with other OS's to be able to hold a reasoned conversation about why the choice of Windows or *nix could be good or bad either way. But if you're going to argue - err.... sorry... discuss - why one is better than the other, at least present your points with some logic that can be backed up
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arad85
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Much as I like Monty Python, this is probably more appropriate.....
Although, it really should say Someone on the Internet is wrong...
Mikesphotaes
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That's more like it
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Just a little observation: some people use things extensively at work and then they truly hate it while on their sofa and are very vocal about it. Well they are the experts at the end of the day. We may have a very pronounced case or two here.
arad85
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No, I don't hate Linux at all. It just isn't complete enough for me to use as my main UI on a day to day basis. I will repeat it again: I have more Linux/FreeBSD installs at home than Windows.
Because of the experience I have I also like to think I know enough about it to be able to have an in-depth discussion about where the issues are and how they might affect someone. If someone wants to at least acknowledge those issues and use it, that's fine by me, but if you blindly claim it is the One OS To Rule Them All and that the World would be a better place if everyone used it, expect me - or someone like me - to pick up on it...
Mikesphotaes
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Goodness... too much willy waving in this thread 
I'd like to share some of my recent experience. Trying to be objective, but I can't promise I'll stick to it it!
I had my first PC when I was less than ten. It was an IBM XT - it looked something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer_XT
I had by then already had some exposure to BASIC on a BBC Micro and also a 48k Spectrum. Eventually that gave way to a 286, a 386 and by the time I'd got my first job (working in a IT), an AMD-K5.
I've seen Windows grow up. I was plugging things into the DOS command line in the heady days before Windows was really anything. Then Windows 3.0/3.1/3.11 became rather main stream and I was introduced to the wonderful world of windows, icons, menus and pointers. I've been constantly immersed in Windows since my mid-teens.
Over the years I've dabbled many times with Linux, recently with increasing frequency and now it's running on two Netbooks as the only OS. I'm about to pop it onto my desktop as a dual boot option, and this time I'm serious about using it.
I last dual booted a PC with linux over 5 years ago. The transition from using Windows just wasn't convenient/justified/necessary and as a consequence I never used it. Even when Microsoft inflicted Vista onto the world - I was still happily using Windows.
Two or three years ago, I popped Ubuntu on a virtual machine, namely so I could use the Linux equivalents of Adobe Illustrator and InDesign for small projects. That stopped when Creative Cloud arrived and I switched to using the Adobe apps for these tasks, and consequently back to using Windows full-time.
So, back to using Windows full time. A desktop at home with a very minimal build of Win 8.1 for photo editing and a laptop running Win7. The laptop was seriously underpowered - I used it for a wide range of different tasks and it had a wealth of software installed on it. Each software application seems to run it's own services for licensing and updates. With every non-essential service disabled, it was taking ten minutes to start and any CPU intensive tasks were incredibly frustrating. Finally the keyboard broke on the laptop and I decided not to replace it.
During the Windows laptop's slow demise, I'd installed Gentoo on a netbook I had lying around. That's running as a server. Right now it's happily dishing up about five different websites, as well as running backup jobs and doing a few other bits and pieces.
I also acquired another netbook as a temporary replacement to the laptop and I installed Crunchbang on it. Installation was easy and everything worked straight away. I'm not exagerating when I say everything. Video, Wi-Fi, Sound, Sleep, Hibernation and even the pesky fan speed issue which is an annoyance on Acer Netbooks is resolved. The netbook is so much more capable under Crunchbang then it ever was under Windows Starter, it's gone from being a white elephant to a useful portable device. I'm not going to be able to encode any video on it in any kind of hurry, but for checking email, creating invoices, watching the odd video - it's perfect. And very responsive. The battery seems to last about a third longer too.
Now, whilst I was enduring the laptops slow demise, I had the job of installing a network, Windows Domain (server, ten workstations) and a few other bits for a small business. I became very disgruntled with the Microsoft licensing model and the way it seems to absolutely stuff small businesses. OEM licenses that PCs ship with are very restrictive. Want to image a PC? You will need a Microsoft Windows Volume License. 10 users? Best part of a thousand pounds. Want Windows 7? Tough. And really, that's been the tip of the iceberg.
That's before mentioning how difficult it is to get PCs downgraded from Windows 8. Yes, you can buy PCs that have already been downgraded, but if the OEM happens to install a load of skunkware and a dodgy configuration that stops an application you want to use from working you have no way of obtaining a clean windows 7 install. The downgrade is useless.
It is difficult to stay away from a terminal window in Linux but not impossible. And in fairness, Windows has a long list of foibles too, which sometimes involve using registry edits and the command line to resolve.
Windows Update is problematic. A common fix I apply for people is applying their updates in small groups in order to get them all applied successfully. Then the way Windows occasionally forces a restart of a machine has to be very VERY infuriating for the end user. Yes it's possible to change the way Windows handles updates, but Microsoft leads end users by the hand into downloading them and applying them as soon as they are available.
Windows Explorer is less than stable. It has a number of weaknesses - it's easily broken by third party context menu handlers. On all flabours of windows, you can sometimes start it and it becomes unresponsive for a very long time whilst it works out what drives/devices/network shares are connected to your PC.
There's always something going out of support with each new version of Windows. I've got two USB scanners here that are not supported by Vista/Win7/Win8. Driver issues are not infrequent. Quite often I'll investigate a BSOD for someone and trace it back to a specific driver.
All that said, Linux is no panacea. It has it's own idiosyncrasies. And the array of choice when it comes to distributions, window managers, applications is bewildering.
Crunchbang is admittedly the first Linux distribution I've used that hasn't needed some sort of fettling in order to get it working, and I suspect that's in part because I was using a platform that's very commonly used with that distribution. I don't think the day when I will be recommending Linux as a viable alternative to Windows is far away..
Now I've recently decided to once again dual boot my desktop PC so I can continue to keep the Windows partition strictly for photo editing. After all, I need a more ergonomic alternative to the CrunchBang netbook now the laptop is gone for some of the tasks I do. And Linux is looking like the perfect choice.
I'll be happy to report how I get on....
I'd like to share some of my recent experience. Trying to be objective, but I can't promise I'll stick to it it!
I had my first PC when I was less than ten. It was an IBM XT - it looked something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer_XT
I had by then already had some exposure to BASIC on a BBC Micro and also a 48k Spectrum. Eventually that gave way to a 286, a 386 and by the time I'd got my first job (working in a IT), an AMD-K5.
I've seen Windows grow up. I was plugging things into the DOS command line in the heady days before Windows was really anything. Then Windows 3.0/3.1/3.11 became rather main stream and I was introduced to the wonderful world of windows, icons, menus and pointers. I've been constantly immersed in Windows since my mid-teens.
Over the years I've dabbled many times with Linux, recently with increasing frequency and now it's running on two Netbooks as the only OS. I'm about to pop it onto my desktop as a dual boot option, and this time I'm serious about using it.
I last dual booted a PC with linux over 5 years ago. The transition from using Windows just wasn't convenient/justified/necessary and as a consequence I never used it. Even when Microsoft inflicted Vista onto the world - I was still happily using Windows.
Two or three years ago, I popped Ubuntu on a virtual machine, namely so I could use the Linux equivalents of Adobe Illustrator and InDesign for small projects. That stopped when Creative Cloud arrived and I switched to using the Adobe apps for these tasks, and consequently back to using Windows full-time.
So, back to using Windows full time. A desktop at home with a very minimal build of Win 8.1 for photo editing and a laptop running Win7. The laptop was seriously underpowered - I used it for a wide range of different tasks and it had a wealth of software installed on it. Each software application seems to run it's own services for licensing and updates. With every non-essential service disabled, it was taking ten minutes to start and any CPU intensive tasks were incredibly frustrating. Finally the keyboard broke on the laptop and I decided not to replace it.
During the Windows laptop's slow demise, I'd installed Gentoo on a netbook I had lying around. That's running as a server. Right now it's happily dishing up about five different websites, as well as running backup jobs and doing a few other bits and pieces.
I also acquired another netbook as a temporary replacement to the laptop and I installed Crunchbang on it. Installation was easy and everything worked straight away. I'm not exagerating when I say everything. Video, Wi-Fi, Sound, Sleep, Hibernation and even the pesky fan speed issue which is an annoyance on Acer Netbooks is resolved. The netbook is so much more capable under Crunchbang then it ever was under Windows Starter, it's gone from being a white elephant to a useful portable device. I'm not going to be able to encode any video on it in any kind of hurry, but for checking email, creating invoices, watching the odd video - it's perfect. And very responsive. The battery seems to last about a third longer too.
Now, whilst I was enduring the laptops slow demise, I had the job of installing a network, Windows Domain (server, ten workstations) and a few other bits for a small business. I became very disgruntled with the Microsoft licensing model and the way it seems to absolutely stuff small businesses. OEM licenses that PCs ship with are very restrictive. Want to image a PC? You will need a Microsoft Windows Volume License. 10 users? Best part of a thousand pounds. Want Windows 7? Tough. And really, that's been the tip of the iceberg.
That's before mentioning how difficult it is to get PCs downgraded from Windows 8. Yes, you can buy PCs that have already been downgraded, but if the OEM happens to install a load of skunkware and a dodgy configuration that stops an application you want to use from working you have no way of obtaining a clean windows 7 install. The downgrade is useless.
It is difficult to stay away from a terminal window in Linux but not impossible. And in fairness, Windows has a long list of foibles too, which sometimes involve using registry edits and the command line to resolve.
Windows Update is problematic. A common fix I apply for people is applying their updates in small groups in order to get them all applied successfully. Then the way Windows occasionally forces a restart of a machine has to be very VERY infuriating for the end user. Yes it's possible to change the way Windows handles updates, but Microsoft leads end users by the hand into downloading them and applying them as soon as they are available.
Windows Explorer is less than stable. It has a number of weaknesses - it's easily broken by third party context menu handlers. On all flabours of windows, you can sometimes start it and it becomes unresponsive for a very long time whilst it works out what drives/devices/network shares are connected to your PC.
There's always something going out of support with each new version of Windows. I've got two USB scanners here that are not supported by Vista/Win7/Win8. Driver issues are not infrequent. Quite often I'll investigate a BSOD for someone and trace it back to a specific driver.
All that said, Linux is no panacea. It has it's own idiosyncrasies. And the array of choice when it comes to distributions, window managers, applications is bewildering.
Crunchbang is admittedly the first Linux distribution I've used that hasn't needed some sort of fettling in order to get it working, and I suspect that's in part because I was using a platform that's very commonly used with that distribution. I don't think the day when I will be recommending Linux as a viable alternative to Windows is far away..
Now I've recently decided to once again dual boot my desktop PC so I can continue to keep the Windows partition strictly for photo editing. After all, I need a more ergonomic alternative to the CrunchBang netbook now the laptop is gone for some of the tasks I do. And Linux is looking like the perfect choice.
I'll be happy to report how I get on....
Last edited:
ancient_mariner
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Thanks Daniel, interesting to hear.
Mikesphotaes
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Enjoyed that post, Daniel.
OP
LCPete
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I've successfully installed Linux mint onto my old dell laptop, very pleased, its the first time that I have done anything like that
the laptop now works properly seems really fast now Linux does seem to suit older machines
the usb sockets are now working too they didn't work when I had XP on it
just had a look at some pictures and the picture viewer can read Canon raw files with no problem
It wont replace my mac laptop for photo editing because Adobe software wont run on Linux but it has breathed a new lease of life into the Dell machine
Linux does seem to be a possible option for replacing windows XP on old machines that don't justify the expense of buying windows 8
just got to figure out how to configure the Wi-Fi !
edit sorted the wifi am now on TP on the Linux machine
the laptop now works properly seems really fast now Linux does seem to suit older machines
the usb sockets are now working too they didn't work when I had XP on it
just had a look at some pictures and the picture viewer can read Canon raw files with no problem
It wont replace my mac laptop for photo editing because Adobe software wont run on Linux but it has breathed a new lease of life into the Dell machine
Linux does seem to be a possible option for replacing windows XP on old machines that don't justify the expense of buying windows 8
just got to figure out how to configure the Wi-Fi !
edit sorted the wifi am now on TP on the Linux machine
Last edited:
ancient_mariner
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See, it's not that hard, though I'd avoid Crunchbang Linux as used by Daniel - that really IS for advanced users.
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LCPete
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arad85
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Dear God.. has everyone gone soft in the last few posts.. feel the love!
Daniel: yup keep us updated - good AND bad (as I think you will have some bad at some point).
LCPete: my view is Linux excels at old PCs and is probably where most will encounter it first.
Daniel: yup keep us updated - good AND bad (as I think you will have some bad at some point
).LCPete: my view is Linux excels at old PCs and is probably where most will encounter it first.
essexmole
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great choice mint is a fantastic distro i was using it for a while until i started using elementary luna which is very cool as well i enjoy mint its set out very well and i think its better than windows i would choose mint by far currently the latest linux mags have mint on the discs i think its the linux user and developer magazine
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LCPete
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Thanks yes it's great to use I picked it up straight away, it's easy to use
It's the net result of running too many applications with their own services.
Creative Cloud
Perfect Photo Suite
Microsoft Office
Dropbox
Teamviewer
Acronis True Image
Google Chrome
Skype
...to name a few.
It's a pentium mobile dual core (T4500) maxed out with 4GB ram.
I'll pop a clean install onto it at some point.
Mikesphotaes
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I've successfully installed Linux mint onto my old dell laptop, very pleased, its the first time that I have done anything like that
the laptop now works properly seems really fast now Linux does seem to suit older machines
the usb sockets are now working too they didn't work when I had XP on it
just had a look at some pictures and the picture viewer can read Canon raw files with no problem
It wont replace my mac laptop for photo editing because Adobe software wont run on Linux but it has breathed a new lease of life into the Dell machine
Linux does seem to be a possible option for replacing windows XP on old machines that don't justify the expense of buying windows 8
just got to figure out how to configure the Wi-Fi !
edit sorted the wifi am now on TP on the Linux machine
Good for you, which version did you install?
I have just spent a few hours installing an old XP machine with the latest Mint version called Cinnamon.
Not a happy experience, more a flatter-to-deceive jobbie!
Looks great, restart after installation gave lots of lines about not finding a bus?
Shut it down, started it then clicked on the start screen for Known Problems, up came Firefox and it crashed.
Next time, tried to close the Start Screen and it's still sitting there!
Anyway, now downloading the Mate version of Mint to have one last try
Last edited:
ancient_mariner
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Mate, Cinnamon (and KDE, gnome, XFCE etc) are all different desktop environments that give you different ways of interfacing with the operating system and using applications. It is unlikely that downloading the same version of mint with a different DE will fix broken parts of the OS. What you might want to try, if you could actually get to a working desktop, is to let the software update itself - then you might well get all the right drivers etc for your hardware.
Mint is generally very good, but if your hardware is a problem for it then downloading another version of Linux might help. Have a look at http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major to see if any of the main 'flavours' appeal.
ianp5a
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Some of those on the list are scary Linuxes. Best to stick with the easy ones like Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Mint if you haven't got sticking plaster on your glasses.
Also, take the option at install to put the OS on a separate partition from your data, if available. This allows you to swap Distros very easily if you have a problem. You can install a new Linux every day if you like without disturbing your data and application settings. It's mighty impressive. For example boot the Ubuntu installer, then you can click ADD to create a new partition, pick a size, say 50Gb, then select "/" as the "mount point". It will then install Ubuntu on a new partition "on the fly" leaving your existing data alone.
Also, take the option at install to put the OS on a separate partition from your data, if available. This allows you to swap Distros very easily if you have a problem. You can install a new Linux every day if you like without disturbing your data and application settings. It's mighty impressive. For example boot the Ubuntu installer, then you can click ADD to create a new partition, pick a size, say 50Gb, then select "/" as the "mount point". It will then install Ubuntu on a new partition "on the fly" leaving your existing data alone.
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ancient_mariner
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Most of them are popular consumer distros: Fedora, openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, Mageia, all for non-geeks. PCLOS in particular is designed to help people migrate from Windows. Sure freeBSD and Slackware aren't friendly or easy, but that is made obvious in the descriptions.
arad85
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Point of order... FreeBSD is not a Linux system, but a BSD-based system (kinda obvious in the name but). I use FreeBSD for a couple of installs (firewalls and fileserver). What it does, it does very well, but hardware support tends to be limited (and biased towards server peripherals).
ianp5a
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Thanks, I tried Fedora last yea. A techie friend made it sound as comfy as Ubuntu. But I discovered a lot more pitfalls. It turns out he was used to them, and didn't realise Ubuntu was a generation slicker. I since heard others saying that Fedora was known to be like that, and were surprised I'd tried it. However, a lot can, and does change in just over a year.
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ancient_mariner
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I have tried Fedora a few times, but it's never stuck, if you know what I mean. TBH I tried Ubuntu *again* last Christmas (have given it a go many times) finding it unstable, and because of that and the rather odd Unity desktop, it's not one I'd ever recommend, even though some find it so easy to use.
Andy - I know you're right, but freeBSD is always lumped in with Linux (hence being on Distrowatch) and the only people ever likely to want to use it will be aware of that too. Still, glad to see you're keeping this conversation on the straight and narrow.
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Mikesphotaes
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I will see what happens when I get home and try to update it.
I left it trying to restart with a message about shutting down the modem manager?
I did notice on both versions, it just sits for hours if you try to make it log in automatically, however go back and put passwords in and off it goes on it's merry way!
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LCPete
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Hi Mike hope you have sorted it now I'm on Cinnamon version 16Good for you, which version did you install?
I have just spent a few hours installing an old XP machine with the latest Mint version called Cinnamon.
Not a happy experience, more a flatter-to-deceive jobbie!
Looks great, restart after installation gave lots of lines about not finding a bus?
Shut it down, started it then clicked on the start screen for Known Problems, up came Firefox and it crashed.
Next time, tried to close the Start Screen and it's still sitting there!
Anyway, now downloading the Mate version of Mint to have one last try
Mikesphotaes
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Thanks, Pete that was my first try
Had the Mate version updated and running but unable to access rest of HDD.
Now *ucking about with Hirens etc, so near but so far but will keep trying for a day or two!