Lightroom Print Module for Lab Printing

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ManVan

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Neil.
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For the umpteenth time I've decided to try and get my head around printing digital images (previous attempts have always produced dark prints/poor colours).

Watched a load of vids on You Tube, calibrated my monitor (or at least I think I have) done some soft proofing, loaded an image into Lightroom print module and printed a JPEG image to screen thinking I might send it off to Loxleys for printing.
Opened Loxley ROES and decided it was probably time to take myself off somewhere quiet and blow my brains out. What a pile of s***e that site is.

Anyway today having slept on yesterdays failings have decided to continue with this quest and will now attempt to use DSCL for printing.

Apologies for the ramble but now the question - is there any benefit in using Lightroom print module for lab printing or should I simply export from Library/Develop modules straight to JPEG and upload to DSCL without the faff of LR print?
 
Mark G said:
I could be wrong about this, but I don't think you can apply a printer's ICC Profile when using the Export option, I believe you select it in the print module before printing to file.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Mark.

Its a good point you make. I know I can include the profile at soft proofing stage but from there wondered if I could rely on the printers upload facility, where I believe I can select a profile. Hopefully I'll get the chance to give it some further investigation
tonight.

I'll let you know what I find.

Regards
Neil.
 
You can download a print profile from DSCL website which can be applied from the LR print module. Just use the print module, select the print profile and print to a file.

Then upload the output .jpg file to DSCL. I've never had a disappointing print from DSCL using this method.
 
ManVan said:
For the umpteenth time I've decided to try and get my head around printing digital images (previous attempts have always produced dark prints/poor colours).

Watched a load of vids on You Tube, calibrated my monitor (or at least I think I have) done some soft proofing, loaded an image into Lightroom print module and printed a JPEG image to screen thinking I might send it off to Loxleys for printing.
Opened Loxley ROES and decided it was probably time to take myself off somewhere quiet and blow my brains out. What a pile of s***e that site is.

Anyway today having slept on yesterdays failings have decided to continue with this quest and will now attempt to use DSCL for printing.

Apologies for the ramble but now the question - is there any benefit in using Lightroom print module for lab printing or should I simply export from Library/Develop modules straight to JPEG and upload to DSCL without the faff of LR print?
Click to expand...

You can order Loxley prints from the website now, no need to use ROES
Prints are always going to look different / darker than monitor, even when calibrated.
You also need to consider the correction the lab is applying, from memory dscl will apply an automated correction unless the pro option is selected.
Loxley apply a manual correction but can be requested with no correction. You can order a corrected and non corrected set of test prints free of charge for comparison.
 
testbloke said:
You can order Loxley prints from the website now, no need to use ROES
Prints are always going to look different / darker than monitor, even when calibrated.
You also need to consider the correction the lab is applying, from memory dscl will apply an automated correction unless the pro option is selected.
Loxley apply a manual correction but can be requested with no correction. You can order a corrected and non corrected set of test prints free of charge for comparison.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response.

I think the Roes link was on my desktop from a previous attempt. Can now see the Loxley web option now - was that not available before?



"Prints are always going to look different / darker than monitor, even when calibrated."

Does this mean that no matter how I set up my monitor I will never know how the prints are likely to look (think this is where I gave up before) ? If so, do I simply set the screen to match the test prints and forget about calibration from there on?
 
You just have to remember that you screen is backlit so will usually appear brighter than a print. You can use LR soft proof g to help with that but you will need a print profile loaded to match the paper you will using.
 
ManVan said:
Thanks for your response.

I think the Roes link was on my desktop from a previous attempt. Can now see the Loxley web option now - was that not available before?



"Prints are always going to look different / darker than monitor, even when calibrated."

Does this mean that no matter how I set up my monitor I will never know how the prints are likely to look (think this is where I gave up before) ? If so, do I simply set the screen to match the test prints and forget about calibration from there on?
Click to expand...

Eventually all products will migrate to our website, it sounds like a simple thing but is years of development.
As above, backlit monitors always look brighter. Personally I do like getting a physical print and comparing it to the screen output then you know where you stand.
 
ecoleman said:
You just have to remember that you screen is backlit so will usually appear brighter than a print. You can use LR soft proof g to help with that but you will need a print profile loaded to match the paper you will using.
Click to expand...

Hi.

I have the paper profiles loaded but they come into use at the soft proofing stage.

I was asking originally if Lightroom Print is of any use for off site printing as the profile is not used beyond the soft proof stage.

According to The Lightroom Queen, probably not, and soft proofing seems to not to help with screen brightness either.
 
testbloke said:
Eventually all products will migrate to our website, it sounds like a simple thing but is years of development.
As above, backlit monitors always look brighter. Personally I do like getting a physical print and comparing it to the screen output then you know where you stand.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help - test prints ordered. Seems I may have a Spyder Pro for sale soon[emoji3]
 
ManVan said:
Hi.

I have the paper profiles loaded but they come into use at the soft proofing stage.

I was asking originally if Lightroom Print is of any use for off site printing as the profile is not used beyond the soft proof stage.

According to The Lightroom Queen, probably not, and soft proofing seems to not to help with screen brightness either.
Click to expand...

If our loaded the print profiles supplied by the offsite printer, use those profiles to softproof and print the image to a .jpg, ensuring you embed the print profile then it will be fine.

Just make sure you choose no adjustments from the printer.
 
ecoleman said:
If our loaded the print profiles supplied by the offsite printer, use those profiles to softproof and print the image to a .jpg, ensuring you embed the print profile then it will be fine.

Just make sure you choose no adjustments from the printer.
Click to expand...
Converting the image to the printer profile and embedding that color space does nothing... only makes that jpeg useless for any other use (w/o reconverting it). The value in using a printer profile is only in softproofing.

I suppose having the printer color space profile embedded could make it easier to know/verify what the image is optimized for.
 
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sk66 said:
Converting the image to the printer profile and embedding that color space does nothing... only makes that jpeg useless for any other use (w/o reconverting it). The value in using a printer profile is only in softproofing.

I suppose having the printer color space profile embedded could make it easier to know/verify what the image is optimized for.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.

This is exactly where my muddled thinking was taking me.
 
sk66 said:
Converting the image to the printer profile and embedding that color space does nothing... only makes that jpeg useless for any other use (w/o reconverting it). The value in using a printer profile is only in softproofing.

I suppose having the printer color space profile embedded could make it easier to know/verify what the image is optimized for.
Click to expand...

The OP is creating the .jpg for submitting to a printer who supplies a print profile. Who cares if it's useless for anything else.
 
ecoleman said:
The OP is creating the .jpg for submitting to a printer who supplies a print profile. Who cares if it's useless for anything else.
Click to expand...
The printer doesn't use it either really... the file just needs to be in a color space the printer system can interpret. Most want sRGB, aRGB, or Pro Photo... even if they provide printer profiles for softproofing.

Very few want/accept a file with the printer profile embedded. If you are doing that then their system must also have those profiles loaded (most don't). And if you convert the file to that profile then it must be sent to the printer w/o any interpretation/conversion (i.e. a Fuji or Noritsu printer that ignores color space information).
 
Okay. DSCL do accept .jpgs with their colour profile embedded, that's why they provide them. I've offered my advise and explained how I do it.

Now you need to experiment yourself.
 
ecoleman said:
Okay. DSCL do accept .jpgs with their colour profile embedded, that's why they provide them. I've offered my advise and explained how I do it.

Now you need to experiment yourself.
Click to expand...
FWIW, there *can* be some benefit to what you describe, it's just a lot more complicated...
Can you even see all of the colors in the color space you are using? If not, what is happening to those colors?
Can the printer print all of the colors you're sending with a wide color space (i.e. ProPhoto)? If not, what will it do with those colors?

Most monitors don't show much more than sRGB, maybe aRGB. Most printers can't print much more than sRGB, maybe a bit more in one or two areas, but not all of aRGB or ProPhoto. Most printer/paper combinations can't even reproduce everything w/in sRGB even though there may be an area beyond which it can... that's the point of softproofing. The color spaces don't match, so you use a printer/paper profile to make the color space you're editing in show what the printer will deliver when given that w/in the limits of what your monitor can display. It supposed to make it a WYSIWYG situation much like calibrating your monitor is.
My MBPr only displays 98% of sRGB... that's with a calibrated profile, not the default sRGB profile. But it's still (w/in) the sRGB color space. And when I use a printer profile, what I see is still w/in the sRGB color space.

IMHO, for most sRGB is the right color space to use for a jpeg. You can see most/all of it, the printer can print most/all of it, and it's the right color space for the web. Loxley only accepts sRGB. DSCL accepts sRGB. DSCL also accepts their own printer profiles, which are probably w/in the sRGB color space. If you convert the image to the softproofing profile it is suitable *only* for that specific printer AND that specific paper.

My workflow is to edit in ProPhoto on a calibrated monitor (sRGB), softproof w/ a printer/paper profile, and output jpegs in sRGB for all uses. The only benefit to keeping the wider gamut for other files is for potential re-edits at some point in the future when I may be able to see more, and printers may be able to reproduce more.
 
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FWIW, there *can* be some benefit to what you describe, it's just a lot more complicated...
Can you even see all of the colors in the color space you are using? If not, what is happening to those colors?
Can the printer print all of the colors you're sending with a wide color space (i.e. ProPhoto)? If not, what will it do with those colors?
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with what colours you can see. It has to do with what colours the printer can print.
Of course the printer can print all of the colours in the print profile. That is the whole point of a print profile. I'm not just embedding some random print profile, I've downloaded a print profile from the printer for a specific printer and paper type. It's really not complicated.

Most monitors don't show much more than sRGB, maybe aRGB. Most printers can't print much more than sRGB, maybe a bit more in one or two areas, but not all of aRGB or ProPhoto. Most printer/paper combinations can't even reproduce everything w/in sRGB even though there may be an area beyond which it can... that's the point of softproofing. The color spaces don't match, so you use a printer/paper profile to make the color space you're editing in show what the printer will deliver when given that w/in the limits of what your monitor can display. It supposed to make it a WYSIWYG situation much like calibrating your monitor is.
My MBPr only displays 98% of sRGB... that's with a calibrated profile, not the default sRGB profile. But it's still (w/in) the sRGB color space. And when I use a printer profile, what I see is still w/in the sRGB color space.
Click to expand...

I'm not interested in what my or any other monitor can handle. I want the most colour information printed in my image. A print profile is a set of instructions which tells the printer who to handle each colour for a specific paper type.

IMHO, for most sRGB is the right color space to use for a jpeg. You can see most/all of it, the printer can print most/all of it, and it's the right color space for the web. Loxley only accepts sRGB. DSCL accepts sRGB. DSCL also accepts their own printer profiles, which are probably w/in the sRGB color space. If you convert the image to the softproofing profile it is suitable *only* for that specific printer AND that specific paper.
Click to expand...

Correct. I print to a jpg with a specific print profile embedded specifically for printing. I don't care if it can be used for web display. For that I just export another with sRGB. You are allowed more than one .jpg you know.

My workflow is to edit in ProPhoto on a calibrated monitor (sRGB), softproof w/ a printer/paper profile, and output jpegs in sRGB for all uses. The only benefit to keeping the wider gamut for other files is for potential re-edits at some point in the future when I may be able to see more, and printers may be able to reproduce more.
Click to expand...

Then I'm afraid you are doing it wrong. How does softproofing for a specific print/paper profile help, when you then output it as sRGB?
The whold point of softproofing is to ensure you image falls within the gamut of the print/paper profile.
 
ecoleman said:
I'm not interested in what my or any other monitor can handle. I want the most colour information printed in my image. A print profile is a set of instructions which tells the printer who to handle each colour for a specific paper type.
Click to expand...
Like I said, there *can be* some benefit. But if you can't see what you are sending, then you don't know what you are sending nor what you will get back... it's a matter of trial and error. Unless everything fits w/in the sRGB color space (or aRGB if your monitor can display that), in which case you might as well send that color space instead. That's why most shops do not want the printer/proofing profile embedded.

ecoleman said:
How does softproofing for a specific print/paper profile help, when you then output it as sRGB?
Click to expand...
The limit to what can be done accurately is the smallest color space involved.
You softproof using your monitor. You adjust the colors, contrast, etc., so that it looks good to you using the softproofing profile while looking at it on your monitor. If your monitor is sRGB, then everything you have done and see is also w/in the sRGB color space. If you then send sRGB, you will get back what you edited to.
When I edit a raw file in LR the color space applied is ProPhoto... but I have no idea what the image looks like in ProPhoto because my monitor is limited to 98% sRGB. I could send the file in ProPhoto to a lab that accepts it, mine does, but I would have no idea as to what I would get back.
 
Feeling a bit smug.

Got a set of test prints back from Loxley and they are absolutely spot on to what I see on my monitor. Cant see any difference between monitor (apart from a bit of back light effect), non-corrected prints and corrected prints so I assume I've got something right.

One point of note - monitor brightness is turned down to zero. I also went the "Export" route straight from Lightroom softproofing without bothering with the print module.

Thanks guys for your help - much appreciated. All that's left to do now is shoot something that's worth printing and that's a whole other story.

Regards
Neil.
 
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