Lighting masterclass, 28th July

Morgan,
That's an interesting perspective. That type of PP work, with very harsh contrast and blown highlights does have appeal (obviously it appeals to you) but different people have different tastes. One of the great things about photography is that it is almost entirely subjective.

The day was about my approach to strong lighting of models who have strong looks, strong personality - showing that there is much more to lighting and posing than taught in "red top" camera mags.

Actually, I fully intended to spend time on backgrounds, but there was just too much to do, so it got left.

As for fixing backgrounds in PS - fair enough, a lot of people enjoy DIY PS. Personally, I'm a pro photographer and it makes commercial/financial sense to me to contract out PP work to pro retouchers, especially when they live in a 3rd world country. Each to their own.


some pp I enjoy, especially with stuff like this where I can cut loose and trial [and error] stuff I wouldn't normally do on paid jobs, but cutting out back grounds is both tiresome and time consuming and I simply am not very good at it. I have contacted the clipping people, trial images on their way after the wedding cull I am just ploughing through :thumbs:
 
Morgan,
That's an interesting perspective. That type of PP work, with very harsh contrast and blown highlights does have appeal (obviously it appeals to you) but different people have different tastes. One of the great things about photography is that it is almost entirely subjective.

The day was about my approach to strong lighting of models who have strong looks, strong personality - showing that there is much more to lighting and posing than taught in "red top" camera mags.

Actually, I fully intended to spend time on backgrounds, but there was just too much to do, so it got left.

As for fixing backgrounds in PS - fair enough, a lot of people enjoy DIY PS. Personally, I'm a pro photographer and it makes commercial/financial sense to me to contract out PP work to pro retouchers, especially when they live in a 3rd world country. Each to their own.

I'll be contacting them as I hate cutting out as I'm crap at it.

H
 
I would want to at least take home a single wow image rather then lots of under par offerings,

I would be interested to see your definition of wow, maybe you could link us to one, preferably taken by yourself, then we could all compare it to the under par offerings you refer to here ;)
 
cutting out back grounds is both tiresome and time consuming

Amen to that Yvonne. I cut this one out today, to be honest i've got better than this from the day, so not sure why i spent so much time on it, but i'm actually happy with the cut out itself, it was one of those, i've started so i will finish :lol:

[URL=http://s59.photobucket.com/user/beachy47/media/I1Resized_zps74c5ac91.jpg.html][/URL]
 
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:lol:
yes, I have to agree, the cutting out is great, but i suspect you have better.

Just uploaded this one, not cut out, but pretty much as shot, just usual minor tweaks instead of the more extreme stuff I have posted so far. Strong light and
using light to highlight shape and form... I think


models001-2 by Yvonne White - WhiteGoldImages, on Flickr
 
Morgan,
That's an interesting perspective. That type of PP work, with very harsh contrast and blown highlights does have appeal (obviously it appeals to you) but different people have different tastes. One of the great things about photography is that it is almost entirely subjective.

The day was about my approach to strong lighting of models who have strong looks, strong personality - showing that there is much more to lighting and posing than taught in "red top" camera mags.

Actually, I fully intended to spend time on backgrounds, but there was just too much to do, so it got left.

As for fixing backgrounds in PS - fair enough, a lot of people enjoy DIY PS. Personally, I'm a pro photographer and it makes commercial/financial sense to me to contract out PP work to pro retouchers, especially when they live in a 3rd world country. Each to their own.

Hi Garry,

I'll cover the editing point first, I under stand why you outsource editing, was more of tip for Yv its not viable for a hobbiest to outsource editing when if you have the time you can do it yourself unless like yourself you have hundreds of images & all spare time is taken up by more shoots.

"One of the great things about photography is that it is almost entirely subjective."
Of which I expressed my opinion on the examples posted, which I think is down to people just posting anything they've taken without picking the best of the bunch (maybe).

"Actually, I fully intended to spend time on backgrounds, but there was just too much to do, so it got left."
This I think was one of the problems some of the images where flat as the backgrounds where too strong or distracting but as you've said there wasn't enough time I guess 15 togs & only so many hours in a day catches up.

err, thanks, sort of :lol:

I think it is a little harsh, not because I think some real wow images have been posted because basically we all got pretty much the same images and the only real variable is the post processing applied, and that is very much down to personal taste and a smattering of know how. The reason I think it harsh is that a - the day was completely free, as a trial for Garry of a different approach to masterclasses and b - the aim wasn't for us to get stunning images, in fact initially we probably wouldn't have got any at all, the aim was for us to be inspired to try and be a bit more adventurous when setting up lighting. As Garry said, not to copy, but to think and be more creative - you can only do that with some practice and of course, some errors - so I guess what I am saying is that it's harsh because one would hope the 'wow' photos are what will follow over the coming weeks/months for thos that have an opportunity to put the day into practice. Does that make sense?

I understand and will be good to see stronger results as people have time to ut things they've learned into practice.


I would be interested to see your definition of wow, maybe you could link us to one, preferably taken by yourself, then we could all compare it to the under par offerings you refer to here ;)

Feel free to peruse my website & offer your opinions on my work.
 
Sorry for the double post, you can do quite a bit of background tweaks in LR, especially with an image like that using the tone sliders on the develop panel.


:lol:
yes, I have to agree, the cutting out is great, but i suspect you have better.

Just uploaded this one, not cut out, but pretty much as shot, just usual minor tweaks instead of the more extreme stuff I have posted so far. Strong light and
using light to highlight shape and form... I think


models001-2 by Yvonne White - WhiteGoldImages, on Flickr
 
Hi Garry,

I'll cover the editing point first, I under stand why you outsource editing, was more of tip for Yv its not viable for a hobbiest to outsource editing when if you have the time you can do it yourself unless like yourself you have hundreds of images & all spare time is taken up by more shoots.

"One of the great things about photography is that it is almost entirely subjective."
Of which I expressed my opinion on the examples posted, which I think is down to people just posting anything they've taken without picking the best of the bunch (maybe).

"Actually, I fully intended to spend time on backgrounds, but there was just too much to do, so it got left."
This I think was one of the problems some of the images where flat as the backgrounds where too strong or distracting but as you've said there wasn't enough time I guess 15 togs & only so many hours in a day catches up.



I understand and will be good to see stronger results as people have time to ut things they've learned into practice.




Feel free to peruse my website & offer your opinions on my work.

Or hundreds of paid shots to edit from weddings, portrait shoots, various commercial stuff etc, then it makes sense to pay someone to do PITA cut out stuff on a few select 'hobby' shoot images I wanna have some fun with. :)
 
Sorry for the double post, you can do quite a bit of background tweaks in LR, especially with an image like that using the tone sliders on the develop panel.

I know, but my aim was to show it as intended for the lighting, not with how one can PP it.
 
Feel free to peruse my website & offer your opinions on my work.

I actually already had, hence my question, indeed you have some very nice images on there, but there wasn't anything that wowed me personally, which i guess gets back to the point about photography being subjective, or one man's meat as they say :)
 
I had a look too, you're a better tog than I am

But while I've been told a few times on TP I'm not qualified to have an opinion...

I did not see much of your work where you were teaching or really the same kind of shots they were trying out here, maybe I missed some ?

None of these shots were done for commercial reasons

I'm not digging you out, you have some good stuff, I think some on this thread could match it

I don't really get the criticism :thinking:

H
 
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I actually already had, hence my question, indeed you have some very nice images on there, but there wasn't anything that wowed me personally, which i guess gets back to the point about photography being subjective, or one man's meat as they say :)

Thank you, I only like a few of my images too one day when I get to a standard I'm happy with I'll post some examples, I have lots to learn about lighting.

I had a look too, you're a better tog than I am

But while I've been told a few times on TP I'm not qualified to have an opinion...

I did not see much of your work where you were teaching or really the same kind of shots they were trying out here, maybe I missed some ?

None of these shots were done for commercial reasons

I'm not digging you out, you have some good stuff, I think some on this thread could match it

I don't really get the criticism :thinking:

H

Thank you also.

I don't use Garrys style of shooting, using harsh light is I find very hard to pull off in my eyes you have to have the right subject & that subject has to be flawless or every blemish will be highlighted if it is not in shadow, I was merely pointing out that I didn't think any of the shots posted where good examples of the lighting apart from Yv, I think maybe I was looking at it all wrong.
 
That’s OK, I don’t use style of shooting either, because my approach is always to light to suit the subject, not to light to any particular style.

But, we all tend to develop our own style, although it should really be a style of photography rather than just a style of lighting, and certainly not to a lighting formulae (i.e. key light goes here, fill light goes here, hairlight goes here, ratios are A4:B3:C1).

I think that what happens with a lot of togging types is that they go out and buy a hotshoe flashgun, stick it on the camera and discover that they can suddenly take photos that they couldn’t take before. OK, the photos are terrible, with harsh shadows, no sculpting etc. Then they discover that they can bounce that light off the ceiling, and suddenly the lighting has become much softer, much more flattering, so they adopt the mantra of “Soft light good, hard light bad”.

Then they buy one or two extra flashes, or a studio flash kit, they now have lighting stands and umbrellas, so they can get the lights away from the camera and produce really soft lighting. They’re really happy with the improvement, so they stop experimenting and stop learning. They think that all that really matters about lighting is avoiding shadows and having enough light to shoot at f/11. They look on t’interweb at tutorials on lighting from people who know no more than they do, they read camera magazines written by people who often just regurgitate an old article by someone else who doesn’t know better, they read books on posing and so on, and most of that info is telling them to use a formulaic approach to lighting that always produces an “acceptable” result but which will very rarely produce a good one.

A limited number of people go beyond that, and experiment to see exactly what can be done when the light is harder. They think about where most light comes from in the natural world, they realise that they can use backlighting in the studio as well as outdoors, they realise that soft lighting produces bland results, makes everyone look fat and so their lighting becomes progressively harder, when they have a subject who has qualities that benefit from that kind of treatment.

The come to realise that good lighting is really about creating the right shadows in the right places.

They come to realise that the “Soft light good, hard light bad” mantra is just as flawed as the “4 legs good, 2 legs bad” mantra of Animal Farm.

ANY method or system is inherently flawed. My model Dani is outstanding, in terms of facial (and body) shape but her eyes didn’t photograph well (contact lenses?) so the shots of her that really work are when she is looking down. Soft lighting on her would have been a total waste of her qualities, but if I was photographing her mother then of course soft(er) lighting would have been a much better choice - but it would still be harder than most.

Add into the mix the fact that the harder the lighting, the greater the failure rate, because a slightly wrongly positioned light, a slightly wrong shooting position or a slight movement of the model will usually ruin the shot.

And, for those who were at my studio last Sunday, and who found this out for themselves, bear in mind that the harder the lighting, the more difficult it is. Don’t be deceived by the speed at which I personally work, I’ve been doing it a long time and can usually get 90% of the way there with my first attempt. I don’t need to meter lighting ratios, I KNOW what will work, and I can just adjust the power of a flash head by twiddling the knob as I walk past it, without even looking at it. For most people, it’s a slow and frustrating process, but my view is that it’s well worth it.

Discuss.
 
That’s OK, I don’t use style of shooting either, because my approach is always to light to suit the subject, not to light to any particular style.

But, we all tend to develop our own style, although it should really be a style of photography rather than just a style of lighting, and certainly not to a lighting formulae (i.e. key light goes here, fill light goes here, hairlight goes here, ratios are A4:B3:C1).

I think that what happens with a lot of togging types is that they go out and buy a hotshoe flashgun, stick it on the camera and discover that they can suddenly take photos that they couldn’t take before. OK, the photos are terrible, with harsh shadows, no sculpting etc. Then they discover that they can bounce that light off the ceiling, and suddenly the lighting has become much softer, much more flattering, so they adopt the mantra of “Soft light good, hard light bad”.

Then they buy one or two extra flashes, or a studio flash kit, they now have lighting stands and umbrellas, so they can get the lights away from the camera and produce really soft lighting. They’re really happy with the improvement, so they stop experimenting and stop learning. They think that all that really matters about lighting is avoiding shadows and having enough light to shoot at f/11. They look on t’interweb at tutorials on lighting from people who know no more than they do, they read camera magazines written by people who often just regurgitate an old article by someone else who doesn’t know better, they read books on posing and so on, and most of that info is telling them to use a formulaic approach to lighting that always produces an “acceptable” result but which will very rarely produce a good one.

A limited number of people go beyond that, and experiment to see exactly what can be done when the light is harder. They think about where most light comes from in the natural world, they realise that they can use backlighting in the studio as well as outdoors, they realise that soft lighting produces bland results, makes everyone look fat and so their lighting becomes progressively harder, when they have a subject who has qualities that benefit from that kind of treatment.

The come to realise that good lighting is really about creating the right shadows in the right places.

They come to realise that the “Soft light good, hard light bad” mantra is just as flawed as the “4 legs good, 2 legs bad” mantra of Animal Farm.

ANY method or system is inherently flawed. My model Dani is outstanding, in terms of facial (and body) shape but her eyes didn’t photograph well (contact lenses?) so the shots of her that really work are when she is looking down. Soft lighting on her would have been a total waste of her qualities, but if I was photographing her mother then of course soft(er) lighting would have been a much better choice - but it would still be harder than most.

Add into the mix the fact that the harder the lighting, the greater the failure rate, because a slightly wrongly positioned light, a slightly wrong shooting position or a slight movement of the model will usually ruin the shot.

And, for those who were at my studio last Sunday, and who found this out for themselves, bear in mind that the harder the lighting, the more difficult it is. Don’t be deceived by the speed at which I personally work, I’ve been doing it a long time and can usually get 90% of the way there with my first attempt. I don’t need to meter lighting ratios, I KNOW what will work, and I can just adjust the power of a flash head by twiddling the knob as I walk past it, without even looking at it. For most people, it’s a slow and frustrating process, but my view is that it’s well worth it.

Discuss.

As I was unable to attend this workshop/masterclass I've been keeping a keen interest in this thread to see how it went. This answer from garry is the best reply on the thread by far. Very true words, and I fall into the group of soft is the way to go but now I see beyond that.

Cheers Garry
 
That’s OK, I don’t use style of shooting either, because my approach is always to light to suit the subject, not to light to any particular style.

But, we all tend to develop our own style, although it should really be a style of photography rather than just a style of lighting, and certainly not to a lighting formulae (i.e. key light goes here, fill light goes here, hairlight goes here, ratios are A4:B3:C1).

I think that what happens with a lot of togging types is that they go out and buy a hotshoe flashgun, stick it on the camera and discover that they can suddenly take photos that they couldn’t take before. OK, the photos are terrible, with harsh shadows, no sculpting etc. Then they discover that they can bounce that light off the ceiling, and suddenly the lighting has become much softer, much more flattering, so they adopt the mantra of “Soft light good, hard light bad”.

Then they buy one or two extra flashes, or a studio flash kit, they now have lighting stands and umbrellas, so they can get the lights away from the camera and produce really soft lighting. They’re really happy with the improvement, so they stop experimenting and stop learning. They think that all that really matters about lighting is avoiding shadows and having enough light to shoot at f/11. They look on t’interweb at tutorials on lighting from people who know no more than they do, they read camera magazines written by people who often just regurgitate an old article by someone else who doesn’t know better, they read books on posing and so on, and most of that info is telling them to use a formulaic approach to lighting that always produces an “acceptable” result but which will very rarely produce a good one.

A limited number of people go beyond that, and experiment to see exactly what can be done when the light is harder. They think about where most light comes from in the natural world, they realise that they can use backlighting in the studio as well as outdoors, they realise that soft lighting produces bland results, makes everyone look fat and so their lighting becomes progressively harder, when they have a subject who has qualities that benefit from that kind of treatment.

The come to realise that good lighting is really about creating the right shadows in the right places.

They come to realise that the “Soft light good, hard light bad” mantra is just as flawed as the “4 legs good, 2 legs bad” mantra of Animal Farm.

ANY method or system is inherently flawed. My model Dani is outstanding, in terms of facial (and body) shape but her eyes didn’t photograph well (contact lenses?) so the shots of her that really work are when she is looking down. Soft lighting on her would have been a total waste of her qualities, but if I was photographing her mother then of course soft(er) lighting would have been a much better choice - but it would still be harder than most.

Add into the mix the fact that the harder the lighting, the greater the failure rate, because a slightly wrongly positioned light, a slightly wrong shooting position or a slight movement of the model will usually ruin the shot.

And, for those who were at my studio last Sunday, and who found this out for themselves, bear in mind that the harder the lighting, the more difficult it is. Don’t be deceived by the speed at which I personally work, I’ve been doing it a long time and can usually get 90% of the way there with my first attempt. I don’t need to meter lighting ratios, I KNOW what will work, and I can just adjust the power of a flash head by twiddling the knob as I walk past it, without even looking at it. For most people, it’s a slow and frustrating process, but my view is that it’s well worth it.

Discuss.

Great post Garry, so true on so many levels, and i see a lot of the mistakes i made myself in in the past, particularly this

"They’re really happy with the improvement, so they stop experimenting and stop learning"

Last week was a great learning curve, particularly the hard light v soft light aspect, one major fact about photography is that you are always learning, wether you have been doing it for one year or thirty years, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded, or has a massive ego, and will certainly come unstuck at some point. I am now coming to realise it's the same with lighting, many different aspects, and many ways to learn :thumbs:
 
[/QUOTE]For a lighting work shop the results aren't brilliant I would want to at least take home a single wow image rather then lots of under par offerings, sorry if its a little harsh.[/QUOTE]

I attended the workshop for a couple of things, to see Garry in action and to look at some of the Lencarta products. I learned something and as a bonus I met some real nice people.

Maybe the results are not up to your standard but as long as people are happy with them and the lighting tuition they received inspires them to have a go on there own then I deem it a success.

My images of the day were very poor but maybe I am just a crap photographer and should think about trading my iPhone in for a real camera.

Thanks again Garry. :thumbs:
 
I think it's shot too wide angle and camera height too high. Fixing both would make a big improvement

I think the shot is spot on both in terms of focal length and camera height. Overall it's a lovely shot. Just shows how its a personal thing. All opinions are valid but its all in the eye of the beholder.
 
I think the shot is spot on both in terms of focal length and camera height. Overall it's a lovely shot. Just shows how its a personal thing. All opinions are valid but its all in the eye of the beholder.

I like that shot myself, a lot. It's better than any of the fresnel spot ones that I took of her. I'd like permission to use it on the Lencarta blog if I may.

In my view, second catchlights aren't important, they can always be removed in post if required
 
I'd like permission to use it on the Lencarta blog if I may.

If your refering to my B&W shot above Garry, by all means yes you can use it, if you would like the larger file, just let me know and i will email it to you :)
 
If your refering to my B&W shot above Garry, by all means yes you can use it, if you would like the larger file, just let me know and i will email it to you :)

Many thanks. It's fine in that size, I will of course credit it to you.
 
That’s OK, I don’t use style of shooting either, because my approach is always to light to suit the subject, not to light to any particular style.

But, we all tend to develop our own style, although it should really be a style of photography rather than just a style of lighting, and certainly not to a lighting formulae (i.e. key light goes here, fill light goes here, hairlight goes here, ratios are A4:B3:C1).

I think that what happens with a lot of togging types is that they go out and buy a hotshoe flashgun, stick it on the camera and discover that they can suddenly take photos that they couldn’t take before. OK, the photos are terrible, with harsh shadows, no sculpting etc. Then they discover that they can bounce that light off the ceiling, and suddenly the lighting has become much softer, much more flattering, so they adopt the mantra of “Soft light good, hard light bad”.

Then they buy one or two extra flashes, or a studio flash kit, they now have lighting stands and umbrellas, so they can get the lights away from the camera and produce really soft lighting. They’re really happy with the improvement, so they stop experimenting and stop learning. They think that all that really matters about lighting is avoiding shadows and having enough light to shoot at f/11. They look on t’interweb at tutorials on lighting from people who know no more than they do, they read camera magazines written by people who often just regurgitate an old article by someone else who doesn’t know better, they read books on posing and so on, and most of that info is telling them to use a formulaic approach to lighting that always produces an “acceptable” result but which will very rarely produce a good one.

A limited number of people go beyond that, and experiment to see exactly what can be done when the light is harder. They think about where most light comes from in the natural world, they realise that they can use backlighting in the studio as well as outdoors, they realise that soft lighting produces bland results, makes everyone look fat and so their lighting becomes progressively harder, when they have a subject who has qualities that benefit from that kind of treatment.

The come to realise that good lighting is really about creating the right shadows in the right places.

They come to realise that the “Soft light good, hard light bad” mantra is just as flawed as the “4 legs good, 2 legs bad” mantra of Animal Farm.

ANY method or system is inherently flawed. My model Dani is outstanding, in terms of facial (and body) shape but her eyes didn’t photograph well (contact lenses?) so the shots of her that really work are when she is looking down. Soft lighting on her would have been a total waste of her qualities, but if I was photographing her mother then of course soft(er) lighting would have been a much better choice - but it would still be harder than most.

Add into the mix the fact that the harder the lighting, the greater the failure rate, because a slightly wrongly positioned light, a slightly wrong shooting position or a slight movement of the model will usually ruin the shot.

And, for those who were at my studio last Sunday, and who found this out for themselves, bear in mind that the harder the lighting, the more difficult it is. Don’t be deceived by the speed at which I personally work, I’ve been doing it a long time and can usually get 90% of the way there with my first attempt. I don’t need to meter lighting ratios, I KNOW what will work, and I can just adjust the power of a flash head by twiddling the knob as I walk past it, without even looking at it. For most people, it’s a slow and frustrating process, but my view is that it’s well worth it.

Discuss.

i did not go to the workshop but have been reading this thread and this post i like the most.

i once held a flash off camera with just a rogue flash bender attached like a snoot in one hand and took a shot of my bro.

it was harsh the light but the result was quite good.

i can post the pic if it is ok
 
2nd blog entry now live here
 
Another great blog entry Garry. The photo of the lighting set up is particularly good ;)
 
Another great blog entry Garry. The photo of the lighting set up is particularly good ;)
Yes, many thanks for those setup shots.

It's something that I always mean to do myself, but actually doing it would require organisation and uncommon sense:)
 
Part 3 of the blog is now live
 
Part 3 of the blog is now live

Read all of the blog now, really interesting and informative, i got a lot out of them, and i will even forgive you for spelling my name wrong Garry :D
 
Getting on for a year has gone by since this event, in that time I've moved house, grown even older and uglier and Lencarta has moved to new premises too, to a warehouse which is of course unheated, making it impossible to run courses in the winter, and all these things (OK, maybe not the older and uglier bit) have stopped me running any more courses.

But, it's now time to do it again.
I've set up what is basically a duplicate of the one that this thread is about, and it's going to happen on Sunday 1st June. Details are here.

It isn't going to be free this time, but it's a not for profit and in the unlikely event that there are any profits, they will go to the local hospice (Manorlands). One model has been booked, the blond girl from last time, who I thought was excellent. If enough people book then I'll book a second model too.

It's going to be in the Lencarta warehouse, there's plenty of space (and the space will get even bigger if needed, thanks to the fork lift truck) and the most important bit of equipment, a coffee machine, is right next to the door.

I hope that this won't be a one-off, but that depends on the level of support.
 
Arghh.... I'm driving back from the Alps on that day.....

Still Thanks Garry for setting this up again as the last one was great...:)
 
Details are in the link
I'm a tit. I was thinking of bringing the gaffer but we're on holiday then too!

I can heartily recommend this, Garry is a fab teacher, there'll be loads of interesting toys to play with, and if it's anything like last year, some great people to just hang around with too.
 
Garry. Any plans for another as I completely missed this and would have loved to attend.
 
Garry. Any plans for another as I completely missed this and would have loved to attend.
It's possible but don't hold your breath.

I have some health problems right now, and it will be a few months before I will be fit enough to even consider it.
But if I can, I will.
 
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