Lighting issue or not?

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Treesie

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I've been battling with lighting for a good 3 weeks now:'( I kept thinking it was something I hadn't got right with either the positioning of the lighting. I had a photographer friend round last week and he was puzzled. No matter how much we tweaked the result was harsh light using a huge 72" pro softbox. He suggested it might be something to do with the camera firmware.
Does anyonethink there is anything else I might be missing that might be right under my nose? We've checked the lighting setup and positioning, metered and set the camera(after retunring back to default settings just in case) :thinking:
 
sample picture or 3 would help... :rules:
 
yep with exif...
 
I heard about a local tog last week that had probs, turned out he had 3 different types/wattage bulbs in a 4 lamp system and it caused an imbalance that his camera/lightmeter couldn't work out.
 
Sample and exif would be needed.
 




Top image taken before firmware update, second after update. Identical settings.


Think I've got this the right way round:gag:
Theres definitely something been going on!
 
How far from the subject is the light?
 
The 2 pics of the guy are different, one is f8 and the other f5.6?
 
EOS_JD said:
How far from the subject is the light?
Click to expand...

Both approx 2ft, would have expected much softer light from this softbox.

Yes the secondimage of the guy is f5.6 after the update......which is actually more like the f8 on the first image.....
 
I'm not sure I understand the problem, The shots of the guy are the same firmware 1.1.1 and they are as I would expect them to be with the different aperture settings.

Or do you think you have cured the prob with the update from 1.1.0?
 
Yes, I'm comparing before upgrade with the two of the guy. The first 2 images are the same settings but one before update and one after. The first is definitely harsh considering the softbox I was using, I just wouldn't expect to see this. The firmware appears to have made some change.
 
I'm not seeing too much harshness, though the light is very far round to the right, almost behind the sitter, which will spread shadows across the face more than if it was more frontal.

But I'm wondering what softbox you are using, what flash unit, how is the flash tube being diffused (apart from the fabric at the front)?

What has a firmware change got to do with the harshness of the light? Are you using Speedlites?

:thinking:
 
I agree I see little by way of harshness in the light, it looks about right for a single softbox with no reflector on other side of model. The settings on the comparison shots are not the same, they have different apertures and when you remember its aperture that controls spread of flash, the difference between the two is easily explainable without any reference to firmware. :shrug: Maybe I am missing your point.....:thinking:

edit: or are you comparing the shot of the lady with the first of the chap, which do have the same settings but impossible to tell if the physical set up was same. Still not really seeing the harshness though....
 
Yv said:
I agree I see little by way of harshness in the light, it looks about right for a single softbox with no reflector on other side of model. The settings on the comparison shots are not the same, they have different apertures and when you remember its aperture that controls spread of flash, the difference between the two is easily explainable without any reference to firmware. :shrug: Maybe I am missing your point.....:thinking:

edit: or are you comparing the shot of the lady with the first of the chap, which do have the same settings but impossible to tell if the physical set up was same. Still not really seeing the harshness though....
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YEs I am, they were as identical as you could get.

Hoppy, the softbox is more forward of the sitter. Its a calumet Nova 72 with internal diffuser. The head is a bowens Espirit500. Its very odd. I kept thinking it was something I was missing till the tog came round and now he can see what I mean hes puzzled as well!
 
Maybe a long shot but do you have a polarizer filter attached to the 24-105?
 
Treesie said:
Hoppy, the softbox is more forward of the sitter. Its a calumet Nova 72 with internal diffuser. The head is a bowens Espirit500. Its very odd. I kept thinking it was something I was missing till the tog came round and now he can see what I mean hes puzzled as well!
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I was wondering about the softbox because that is a huge thing and it will be very difficult to get even light right to the corners without both a diffuser/deflector cap over the tube and two diffusion screens on the front. I use both of those things to get really even light out of my relatively tiny 70x70cm softbox. So I'm guessing you've maybe got a hot-spot limiting the softness relative to the size of the light. If you take meter readings from different areas of the light surface (reflected readings, without the invercone, about one foot form the surface) after the meter drops below maybe two stops from the central region, any light coming from outside that line will have very little softening effect.

The other thing is positioning. Whatever the exact position you've got it in, there is certainly light coming from the behind the shoulder so I'm guessing that as far as the face is concerned you've only got half a softbox shining on that area.

Maybe if you combine these two factors there is something of an answer?
 
HoppyUK said:
I was wondering about the softbox because that is a huge thing and it will be very difficult to get even light right to the corners without both a diffuser/deflector cap over the tube and two diffusion screens on the front. I use both of those things to get really even light out of my relatively tiny 70x70cm softbox. So I'm guessing you've maybe got a hot-spot limiting the softness relative to the size of the light. If you take meter readings from different areas of the light surface (reflected readings, without the invercone, about one foot form the surface) after the meter drops below maybe two stops from the central region, any light coming from outside that line will have very little softening effect.

The other thing is positioning. Whatever the exact position you've got it in, there is certainly light coming from the behind the shoulder so I'm guessing that as far as the face is concerned you've only got half a softbox shining on that area.

Maybe if you combine these two factors there is something of an answer?
Click to expand...

Thanks Hoppy, I'll work on that. I picked up a 150mm octabox yesterday. It has the diffuser and grid so I'm hoping it'll give a more controlled light. I'm setting that up today to see what I can get. Can you explain what you mean about a defractor cap over the bulb? I presume you have added a second diffuser yourself?
 
Treesie said:
Thanks Hoppy, I'll work on that. I picked up a 150mm octabox yesterday. It has the diffuser and grid so I'm hoping it'll give a more controlled light. I'm setting that up today to see what I can get. Can you explain what you mean about a defractor cap over the bulb? I presume you have added a second diffuser yourself?
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The cap I use is the transluscent jobby from Elinchrom here http://www.elinchrom.com/products.php?p_id=105#content It only fits their stuff but other makers have something similar I think.

The transluscent one deflects about half the light, forcing it around the back of the softbox, and half the light is diffused around the front, so nothing goes directly forward.

If you don't have one of these then a double diffusion screen is essential really. The better quality softboxes all come with fittings for a second diffusion screen.

The opaque gold/silver deflectors in that link are for use with open reflectors like a beauty dish.
 
HoppyUK said:
The cap I use is the transluscent jobby from Elinchrom here http://www.elinchrom.com/products.php?p_id=105#content It only fits their stuff but other makers have something similar I think.

The transluscent one deflects about half the light, forcing it around the back of the softbox, and half the light is diffused around the front, so nothing goes directly forward.

If you don't have one of these then a double diffusion screen is essential really. The better quality softboxes all come with fittings for a second diffusion screen.

The opaque gold/silver deflectors in that link are for use with open reflectors like a beauty dish.
Click to expand...

I lost the rod for my translucent deflector! :( Need to buy another set!
 
HoppyUK said:
The cap I use is the transluscent jobby from Elinchrom here http://www.elinchrom.com/products.php?p_id=105#content It only fits their stuff but other makers have something similar I think.

The transluscent one deflects about half the light, forcing it around the back of the softbox, and half the light is diffused around the front, so nothing goes directly forward.

If you don't have one of these then a double diffusion screen is essential really. The better quality softboxes all come with fittings for a second diffusion screen.

The opaque gold/silver deflectors in that link are for use with open reflectors like a beauty dish.
Click to expand...

OK, watched this short video http://www.theflashcentre.com/rotalux-softboxes-c117.html and as there is no slot on my bowens heads I presume there isn't an equivilant:(
 
Treesie said:
OK, watched this short video http://www.theflashcentre.com/rotalux-softboxes-c117.html and as there is no slot on my bowens heads I presume there isn't an equivilant:(
Click to expand...

If you have a naked flash tube and don't have at least double diffusion panels, you will not be getting even light coverage across the front of your softbox.

If it's bad, it will reduce the effective size of the softbox in terms of delivering really soft light.
 
HoppyUK said:
If you have a naked flash tube and don't have at least double diffusion panels, you will not be getting even light coverage across the front of your softbox.

If it's bad, it will reduce the effective size of the softbox in terms of delivering really soft light.
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Thanks Hoppy ... whoever said lighting was easy;)
That shouldn't apply then should it as I have the inner and outer diffuser panels in place. I'm gutted Bowens don't do a cap it would have served well.:'(
 
Treesie said:
Thanks Hoppy ... whoever said lighting was easy;)
That shouldn't apply then should it as I have the inner and outer diffuser panels in place. I'm gutted Bowens don't do a cap it would have served well.:'(
Click to expand...

I think Bowens would say, if you'd bought one of our softboxes, you wouldn't have this problem ;)

Their big wafer SBs for example have a double diffuser screen system which has dots printed on it where the hot spots are so you end up with a perfectly even output. Same result as the Elinchrom deflector/diffuser cap I use. Check the vid, #3 in this link http://www.bowens.co.uk/content/pages/bowenstv.html Not cheap though.

But the proof of the pudding, is what you're actually getting now in terms of evenness. Do the test with a light meter. Or shoot some pictures of it square on, and with blinkies enabled on the LCD, to see where the hot spots are. If you vary the exposue the blinkies will show you graphically exactly what you've got where, and the light levels.

I'm not sure what's accepatable in terms of evenness and what's not. I said earlier that when you get to two stops fall off you've effectively lost any significant benefit from the area of the light below that level. It's only a guess though. I wouldn't be happy with anything much over a stop TBH. Maybe Garry Edwards will post his thoughts.

Here's an idea for you if it's a problem - a DIY version of the Bowens vignette dot diffuser. Take your inner diffusion screen and stick some small dots of kitchen foil over the centre of the inside surface, then radiating out with reducing numbers. Be guided by the histogram blinkies.

The foil will block the light, but reflect it back so it's not wasted. If the dots are small enough (quarter inch squares - maybe smaller?) they will be invisible, and if you get it right this will give you absolutely even coverage right to the corners. Probably just a few in the very brightest area in the centre will make quite a big difference.
 
I don't think it should be necessary to have a diffuser over the flash tube, all that's needed really is adequate design in the first place, the light should then bounce around the softbox properly without causing hotspots.

Without being critical of your particular softbox (which I don't think I've used) the problem could be that the front diffusion material is too flimsy and/or that the inner diffuser doesn't go right to the edges.

Here is a video that I made some time ago - I don't seem to be able to embed it here so here is the link

Later, I re-visited that particular softbox and did some mods to it that made it much better, just to see whether I could (I have plenty of softboxes but like to experiment).
See this short article, published on my Photolearn website.
Basically, just doubling the thickness of the outer diffuser made the softbox much more like a Chimera, which has a very dense material on the front. The light distribution is exceptionally even, its size makes the light soft when placed at a close distance but the light is crisp too - which is perhaps less than ideal if really soft lighting is wanted but it's ideal for fashion photography because it makes the clothes look more expensive :)

Looking at your example photos, this is only a guess but I think you've placed the softbox at an angle to allow you the amount of physical space you needed at that close distance, and this is the cause of the problem, i.e. that the light isn't wrapping around the subject
 
:clap:Garry you are brilliant:thumbs: The softbox was on an angle :) with the subject standing towards the rear of the box. So I should keep the box straight on?

I've now changed the mega softbox for a 150cm octabox which also has a grid. Although it doens't have Hoppys preferred setup at least we can move around freely now :D

I've now read and watched your links, good information, thanks.
 
Garry you are brilliant
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:thumbs::lol::lol::lol:


The softbox was on an angle with the subject standing towards the rear of the box. So I should keep the box straight on?
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Yes, if what you want is light that wraps around the subject (approaches it from all angles from a light source [softbox in this case] that is larger than the subject) and no if you want to achieve a different effect, i.e. softboxes can do much more than produce soft lighting.
 
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