Lighting Equipment

I'm sure that's why he was surprised and this is the trouble with being known as cheap, it's very difficult to raise your prices to realistic amounts later on.

Next time someone asked you for a quote actually sit down and work it out exactly how much this will cost you in expenses (travel, equipment, etc.) and how much time you will need including picking up hire gear, phoning studios etc, then you know how much to charge. You might find that you can drop the price to a more acceptable level when they ask (but only if there is a reason) and know immediately if you can afford it.

Just take your time, work it out on paper, and try to avoid the rushed response when you slash the price in half not to lose a sale. Just say 'I'll have to come back to you on that one, see if there is any savings that can be made', its polite, accurate, and shows you're not trying to shaft them.

Still, this is just one step further down the road and a much better price than last time.
:)
 
I did though. It was only expensive because you guys told me I should be charging £150 an hour, when i've normally done £20. It was all worked out and budgeted. He's came back with £300 left for the photographer from their budget. He's said if I feel robbed to say so.
 
Rather than labour on this job I would recommend you understand what the "successful" competition charges. From this you can you can position your prices accordingly. You should never take too much notice of the customer stating you are too expensive etc, unless they can produce competive quotes etc. It's a slippery slope starting to reduce prices just because they say they can't afford it.

Put it this way, would you accept £200 for your camera because that is all I can afford ? (If you do, then please pm me ;) )

Apologies if anything sounds harsh, but we all support you here on your ventures, so sometimes a bit of straight talk is required.

Good luck with the job anyway :)
 
It was only expensive because you guys told me I should be charging £150 an hour
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Well if it's any help to you at all I would have costed it like this

3 hours on site @ £100 per hour
4 hours Photoshop work @ £180 per hour
£1 per mile
all plus VAT of course.

That's for images supplied on CD/DVD as TIFF (aprox 70/80mb) and small JPEG versions.

When I was setting my price list I spent a couple of days phoning round dozens and dozens of companies getting a quote on a made up job so I had a wide range of comparisons. A very interesting excercise as the difference in quality of response was staggering.
 
This is only an observation - nothing personal, but I think the problem your having is the conflict between photography as a hobby and enjoyment, and that of a career. Its all well when its shooting the shots, but the haggling, the costing of something that you would actually like to do for experience I think is causing you conflict.
You need to really take the approach of if it aint worth it I wont do it, as opposed to the situation where you really want to have a go and that enthusiasm is I think making it harder for you to draw the line.

If these companies are responding with dissapointment at your prices, you should at a minimum explain that the earlier cost was almost like a sample, and from now on its the pro rate.

Or alternatively something that tends to wake people up is to present them with a breakdown of where the costs are going, and that any cheaper will mean a much lower quality result - one which you would not be willing to be part of;)
 
I'm sorry Pete but it sounds like your getting the polite shaft a bit here, he seen you slash your price in half and now he's trying to push you further. I can fully understand your wanting to earn some money here to clear some debts, but unless your really struggling I would tell him "your starting to feel robbed" then explain why.

Yes, you did cheaper jobs for him before but these were introductory prices, and these jobs did not require organising and using lighting equipment, longer shooting hours, more intricate photoshop work that'll take more hours aswell... as Warspite said, break it all down for him.

There's no way he's got just £300 left in the budget to hire a professional photographer to do a shoot, that isn't even remotely close to the going rate, it's more like he has £300 left for YOU to do a shoot... I'd personally find that quite insulting. Unless you force him to properly value your work he never will and he'll allways offer you next to nothing and expect you to take it.
 
It's a tough one this.
We're all trying to steer you down the road with the benefit of hindsight and experience.
When I started out in my teens, I did gig photography for some local bands in Oxford (The Corn Dolly and The Penny Farthing - all gone now). I did these for the price of admission and for drinks.
When it came time for the bands to cough up for all the prints they'd ordered, the money mysteriously vanished and I was left holding almost £300 worth of hand-printed B&W 10x8"s.

We've all been there (some of us, anyway) and the fact is - if they're asking you to do it as a favour, then fine - you've done that. If they're paying you as a professional, pay the going rate.
This guys may be telling you he's only got a small budget on the strength of the previous jobs you've done for them. He'll have told his bosses they can save £3k on the job and now you're making him look stupid by raising the bar on him. Tough.
It's not personal - it's business.
It's the hardest part of our job and the bit I like least, but the country is littered with failed photographers who were great at image-making but lousy at business.

I agree with the others - you shouldn't have dropped the price so drastically - it definitely looks like you were trying it on and now haven't the confidence to carry it through.
 
Ok guys cheers for your help. I really appreciate it. You are right when you say I'm having conflicts between hobby and pro. I'd do the job for free if money wasn't an object, but money is. It does make me think that if I accept the job for £300 then the next time they offer me work and I say £1k they'll say "but last time it was £300". He mentioned they had previous obtained their imagery from iStock, which is why when it came to a professional shoot he was shocked at the price.

So, come Monday. Best option would be to stand my ground and say that realistically it would be £1k, but as a favour I dropped it to £500. I couldn't do it for £300 as I'm already spending £1k as a deposit on the lens and lighting rental. It really is a big step up from the previous to jobs. A few hours at a wedding would cost at least the same and thats for personal use.

Sound ok? I'd love to do the job, it sounds good and could have interesting prospects. Feather in my cap, corporate section on my portfolio. I keep feeling like I'm burning clients with each job, but I guess thats because I don't have the confidence yet to say "right, this this and that. industry standard, won't find someone better for cheaper. yay or nay." I am getting there though with your help, which I really really appreciate. Don't worry about sounding harsh as I need it :)
 
you ve come a long way Pete, i remember you talking before of not having the confidence with people etc, but look how your doing now? Your talking about doing a pro shoot with a model and all that, so your heading the right way, just stick to your guns now!
 
Pete,

Just to put things into perspective, we were burgled 18 months ago, and we had to change the barrel in the lock (£8) at b&q.

The bill (i knew we could claim it on the insurance) was £269.99.

1 Guy in a van to travel 3 miles, to fit a barrel in a lock that took 15 minutes.

I've just been doing some accounts work for the company i work for, and have just checked back as to what we paid for one cover picture for our catalogue, price for the image was £450.00.

I know its not going to change anything, it just shows how much people charge. So dont feel your overcooking the chicken when you go in at a £1000.

By the way, it would be the first time someone has gone over budget either.

Good luck anyway and i hope you get it, the work on your site is great.

Mike
 
Cheers guys :) I went to Getty and picked a typical office shot and priced it up. At least £280 for one photo. Thats a normal every day office shot. This is a custom shoot tailored to this company. I'm feeling a little more confident now as I can use that info. I'll be friendly with the guy and tell him I'd love to do the work, and sure I was cheap in the past but I've got to quote realistic prices now.

Funny thing is, he was one of the people that helped convince me to turn pro.
 
petemc said:
So, come Monday. Best option would be to stand my ground and say that realistically it would be £1k, but as a favour I dropped it to £500. I couldn't do it for £300 as I'm already spending £1k as a deposit on the lens and lighting rental. It really is a big step up from the previous to jobs. A few hours at a wedding would cost at least the same and thats for personal use.
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petemc said:
I went to Getty and picked a typical office shot and priced it up. At least £280 for one photo. Thats a normal every day office shot. This is a custom shoot tailored to this company. I'm feeling a little more confident now as I can use that info. I'll be friendly with the guy and tell him I'd love to do the work, and sure I was cheap in the past but I've got to quote realistic prices now.
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Sounds like a good and fair way to go forward mate, good luck! :thumb:
 
Sounds like you're going the right way there mate. Keep us posted.

:)
 
Goodluck Pete, hope you get it, but dont let them take advantage, your good at your stuff so make sure they pay accordingly:thumb:
 
You should keep a diary of all this....you'll be able to write a book for "Beginners guide to Pro Photography" ;)
 
DJW said:
You should keep a diary of all this....you'll be able to write a book for "Beginners guide to Pro Photography" ;)
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And sell it for lots... other than to fellow TPF'ers...!
 
& be on commission for any TPF statements included ;)
 
Ok they gone upto the £500 I quoted. I'm tempted to say yes, but only this once as I know you're in a bind. The only reason they said £500 is because I was stupid so I can't exactly say no.
 
take the money Pete, you have a goood platform to work on for the next job!
 
Well done, they know they're still getting a good deal.
 
Pete, placed some generic advice on understanding business costs here, that may be of help in future
 
Cheers DJW. Client booked, location booked, lighting booked, lens (17-35mm L f/2.8) booked and a model booked. I've rented the equipment for a week so that I can practice tomorrow with it. So all thats left is spending a day learning studio lighting. Any tips? Which way round should the softbox / umberalla go. How do they both connect to my camera? :confused-
 
Softbox should be your main light, and that's the one attached to the camera, either by sych cord (supplied with lights) or an IR trigger which goes on the camera's hot-shoe. Each light should have an IR slave built-in so that when one goes off, they all do.
I've even triggered studio flash with an ordinary flash set to manual and with the ouput dialled right to minimum and the head tilted backwards (even we sometimes forget bits of kit...).

When you start setting up, build one light at a time - by that I mean get the lighting right for one flash before you add another. You should only need two, maybe three lights in a small space. Put the softbox as if it were a window: depending on the sitter, they should look as if they're lit naturally.
The fill-in flashes are positioned to eliminate any shadows from the main light (unless you want shadow, in which case don't use any) and should be outputting at a fraction of the main light's output - typically 1/3 or 1/4 of the main light.
The biggest mistake beginners to studio flash make, is toy use too many lights - it really is a case of 'less is more'...

Remember that when using studio flash, the flash is your shutter speed unless you're after slow-synch effects or are balancing with ambient light, use the fastest sych speed available and set the aperture and flash output to achieve the correct exposure.

There's more but the cats are bugging me for dinner!!!! Argh! Claws!
 
:wave1: hey Pete,

How you getting on with those lamps today?
 
Ok, softboxes are a bitch to setup. I kept thinking "It has to bend", then it bends and I'm like "eeeek it'll break!". Eventually its done. Thankfully they supplied me with 2 leads as one seems a bit iffy. I've connected the 10D to the softbox lamp which remotely sets off the brolly lamp. I've tried various settings and things and I really like them. They're not that scary to use and quite logical. Set camera to manual, 1/200. Set aperature, set light power, take pic. I'm relying on the histogram more than ever. I've never used it before but I can look at it and go "hmm, while the pic looks *ok* the histogram says its lacking highlights." Then I re-adjust the lamps and try again. The great thing is, when I have a spare £1k I know I can just go out and buy an Espirit Gemini 3x 500w setup and be happy.

I'll post some pics of my setup later.
 
They're not that scary to use and quite logical
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:cool: :cool: :cool:

It used to be much more fun in the days before histograms though. ;)
 
Ok this is what I've been playing with.

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I moved the lights back so I could test them at f/2.8.
 
Nice iron.




(It is customary, nay, internet law, that any shots taken in a forum members house, must receive comments of the decor, apparel, furniture, or anything else comepletely unconnected with the reason for the photograph).
 
crap vcr though :)
 
Yer I hear the Iron is good, and yes the VCR is crap :p
 
I'm quite taken with the zimmer frame! lol

Yours?
 
Ok, so the shoot. Tiring and quite nerve racking. The model seemed a bit shy and I had to keep telling her to smile. I tried making jokes and things as I felt faking a smile wasn't as nice as real emotion. Some shots have the reflections of the lights in the windows, I never thought of that but that was a good lesson to learn. I also kept having a blank mind. On my way there I kept thinking about shots I wanted, but then during the shoot I would get a couple of shots and then my mind was blank. I found that quite annoying. The lights were fantastic though. Far far better than a simply Sigma flash. There are some shots where I can see that I should have positioned the brolly better and things but its all good. Learning curve, experience, portfolio etc :)

A sample;

I watched Lost in Translation last night for some inspiration. Its a wonderful film with great direction and the cinematography is just so nice. So during the shoot I noticed I had a spare brolly. So I had the odd idea of an empty room with the model holding the brolly looking out the window.

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CRW_7047-02.jpg


I don't know what it says but I kinda like it.
 
I like the tones & contrast in those shots Pete. Composition is a good idea, although in PS I would a) straighten vertical of distant windows plus at end of wall on both & b) shift the angle from end wall to ceiling, so it was same as floor to wall.

Good work :)
 
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