Light metering

EOS_JD said:
So he sets to f8 metering to the camera yet from model position the main light is f10.... So if he uses f8 the face will be over exposed as it's getting 2/3rd more light than the aperture he's using??!

Hey Jim

Just because your meter tells you the f10 doesn't mean you need to meter at f10, the choice is yours "over exposing" by 3/4 of a stop is going to give whiter skin(assuming the subject is white) and hide lots of imperfections in the skin too, also if the subject has dark hair and or dark clothes then these will appear shinier as well.
 
What ever happened to the just take a photo read the histogram and adjust accordingly method.
 
Pmc2011 said:
What ever happened to the just take a photo read the histogram and adjust accordingly method.

Because the histogram is a waste of time, and you can't tell if you have a correct exposure it
 
Because the histogram is a waste of time, and you can't tell if you have a correct exposure it

Histogram is the best and most reliable exposure indicator there is, way better than any metering method. Histograms are very easy to read, and with blinkies enabled you know exactly where you are at a glance.

Histogram shows what is actually on the sensor.
 
How do you measure ratios using the histogram? The histogram is useful but not a way to measure exposure in a multi light setup.

It is however fine for getting a backdrop white or getting an exposure that looks acceptable - But it takes time when a simple meter reading (pointed at the light source) will be a much more accurate and quicker solution.
 
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Hey Jim

Just because your meter tells you the f10 doesn't mean you need to meter at f10, the choice is yours "over exposing" by 3/4 of a stop is going to give whiter skin(assuming the subject is white) and hide lots of imperfections in the skin too, also if the subject has dark hair and or dark clothes then these will appear shinier as well.

I agree Bryan. That is absolutely the choice of the photographer and might be what they want to do.

But he was showing a small film on metering. He metered the light from the main light at f10 then pointing to the camera and getting f8 and shooting at f8. If he had said he was making a choice to over expose and explaining that - no problem - but he wasn't - he was showing how to use the meter and I'd say his decision was wrong as he'd be over exposing the subject.

Watch the video :)
 
No, he is metering to the camera, not what he metered from the light to the model, which was at a slight angle. Look again.

Malcolm

Which makes his exposure wrong. The light at f10 hitting the model will over expose her.
 
Logically, if the light was at the same angle as the camera, the setting would be the same. If the light is slightly off that angle, then the light going to the camera will be reduced. Think of it this way......... if you put the light at right angles to the model and metered the light directly, do you thing the light reaching the camera at 90* would be the same. The answer is no, it will be lower. That's why if you meter to the light and set the camera the same, you could be underexposed. Always set the camer metered to the camera not the light.

Sorry that's just wrong :(

What if you have a backlit subject? A side lit subject? You can't measure towards the camera - that's just wrong! It's not about the "light reaching the camera" it's about the light hitting the subject.

In order to maintain the ratio you meter the main light and set your aperture accordingly. Then set the fill light and other lights to that.

Another way to look at it..... Lets say you are moving around the scene. The light hitting the subject is the same in EVERY SHOT. If I meter towards the camera in shot 1 I get f8. In shot 2 if I move to the side it could now be f10 or if I move another way for shot 3 it could be f5.6 - Yet the light on the subject is the SAME in EVERY SHOT - You meter to the lights - Job done. Forget metering towards the camera.

That is why it's CRAZY to meter to the camera.
 
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How do you measure ratios using the histogram? The histogram is useful but not a way to measure exposure in a multi light setup.

It is however fine for getting a backdrop white or getting an exposure that looks acceptable - But it takes time when a simple meter reading (pointed at the light source) will be a much more accurate and quicker solution.

Are you being deliberately contrary in this thread Jim? ;)

I said use the histogram/blinkies for exposure, meaning setting overal exposure, not ratios. Use the meter for setting up ratios, as I have already said very clearly twice on this thread and a hundred times before.

I would also use the LCD image for tweaking ratios, because the thing that matters is what the image looks like, not that everything is in exact proportion according to the meter or a set of ratios. I think Garry said the same thing. For example, rule of thumb as a starting point might be to set a hair light at +1 stop above key light, but that varies depending on hair colour, hair style, angle of the light etc.
 
Sorry that's just wrong :(

What if you have a backlit subject? A side lit subject? You can't measure towards the camera - that's just wrong! It's not about the "light reaching the camera" it's about the light hitting the subject.

In order to maintain the ratio you meter the main light and set your aperture accordingly. Then set the fill light and other lights to that.

Another way to look at it..... Lets say you are moving around the scene. The light hitting the subject is the same in EVERY SHOT. If I meter towards the camera in shot 1 I get f8. In shot 2 if I move to the side it could now be f10 or if I move another way for shot 3 it could be f5.6 - Yet the light on the subject is the SAME in EVERY SHOT - You meter to the lights - Job done. Forget metering towards the camera.

That is why it's CRAZY to meter to the camera.

It is actually about the light reaching the camera. And that varies according to the subject, the angle of the light and the reflective nature of the sufrace. That's why there is so much confusion here. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.

In theory, metering towards the camera should give you the answer, but it gets skewed with side or back lighting. Metering towards the light will give you another reading, but takes no account of the particular nature of the subject or situation. So you end up with two readings, and have to make a judgement.

At the end of the day though, the only thing that matters is what it looks like. With a decent LCD, the image there will give you a very good guide.
 
Are you being deliberately contrary in this thread Jim? ;)

I said use the histogram/blinkies for exposure, meaning setting overal exposure, not ratios. Use the meter for setting up ratios, as I have already said very clearly twice on this thread and a hundred times before.

I would also use the LCD image for tweaking ratios, because the thing that matters is what the image looks like, not that everything is in exact proportion according to the meter or a set of ratios. I think Garry said the same thing. For example, rule of thumb as a starting point might be to set a hair light at +1 stop above key light, but that varies depending on hair colour, hair style, angle of the light etc.

Not meaning to be Richard and we've had the chat before I think. Why would you use the histograms when you already have all the info you need? Using the back of the camera isn't a great idea, been there done that made the mistake of that.

I'm no great pro but the guy who was teaching me is. Why make things complicated.
 
Wow I think I'm going to need a cup of tea and read this all from the beginning again very slowly. As for my lights I have a set of Elinchrom D-Light 4's. I will be honest that I have been up to now using both on either side at a rough 45 degree angle (but I have to start somewhere). I did try just the one light with some nice results but I think experimenting with the lights is going to be best. I haven't quite figured out yet the need to make a light brighter as I end up moving it further from my subject as its too harsh, although small adjustments on the camera adapt for that. I must say that using two studio lights in a limited living room space does do my head in! I think for now I will keep reading articles and may get a book on lighting. I was going to pay for a small course but having now seen that half of you seem to disagree with where to point the meter I feel this may happen with a designated tutor and he may well end up teaching "his/her way", whereas I think I need to establish "my way"...with what I feel is right.
 
It is actually about the light reaching the camera. And that varies according to the subject, the angle of the light and the reflective nature of the sufrace. That's why there is so much confusion here. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.

In theory, metering towards the camera should give you the answer, but it gets skewed with side or back lighting. Metering towards the light will give you another reading, but takes no account of the particular nature of the subject or situation. So you end up with two readings, and have to make a judgement.

At the end of the day though, the only thing that matters is what it looks like. With a decent LCD, the image there will give you a very good guide.

The subject should make no difference to an incident light meter reading? I accept you may have artistic input to change a part of the light or there may be something that skews a result but a meter reading towards the light is an exact value of the light falling on the subject no matter whether its a black cat, a white dog or anything in between.

Moving around the subject will not change the light on the subject.
 
Not meaning to be Richard and we've had the chat before I think. Why would you use the histograms when you already have all the info you need? Using the back of the camera isn't a great idea, been there done that made the mistake of that.

I'm no great pro but the guy who was teaching me is. Why make things complicated.

Because the meter doesn't give you all the information you need. What you are doing is measuring the light falling on the subject, which is not necessarily the same as the light reflected from the subject to the camera.

Example, you have a back hair light set to ratio X which worked great last time, but your subject then had brown hair against grey background. What if your subject has an affro, or is blonde, or has dark slicked back hair aganst a dark background? The LCD image doesn't look right, maybe blinkies are flashing like mad on the slicked black or blonde hair, so do you follow the meter or make an adjustment based on what you see?

The other thing is the meter knows nothing about the exact exposure calibration of the camera, how much light is lost within the lens (T/stop), how accurate the actual aperture setting is, or how you might want to shift the histogram (ETTR technique).

There is no perfect method, horses for course, but I use every tool at my disposal. Metering to the light for set up, metering to the camera to get an idea of any changes there, but ultimately consulting the LCD image, with blinkies enabled, and the histogram and making a judgement for the final exposure setting.

The subject should make no difference to an incident light meter reading? I accept you may have artistic input to change a part of the light or there may be something that skews a result but a meter reading towards the light is an exact value of the light falling on the subject no matter whether its a black cat, a white dog or anything in between.

But the light falling on the subject is not necessarily the same as the light reflected off the subject towards the camera and falling on the sensor. And that's what counts.

Moving around the subject will not change the light on the subject.

No, but it may well change the exposure, because it changes what the camera sees, according to the nature of the subject. Agreed we may be talking about extremes here, or splitting hairs, but there will be change. We're talking portraits here, skin and hair are highly reflective, and moving the position of the camera, or angle of the light, can have a big effect on that, even though an incident reading to the light reads the same.
 
Because the meter doesn't give you all the information you need. What you are doing is measuring the light falling on the subject, which is not necessarily the same as the light reflected from the subject to the camera.

But the light reflected is not what you are measuring nor do you need that! I really don't understand why you would want that?

Example, you have a back hair light set to ratio X which worked great last time, but your subject then had brown hair against grey background. What if your subject has an affro, or is blonde, or has dark slicked back hair aganst a dark background? The LCD image doesn't look right, maybe blinkies are flashing like mad on the slicked black or blonde hair, so do you follow the meter or make an adjustment based on what you see?

That is a very different situation though Richard and that is not what we're discussing mainly - Yes you will need to have some input into how the image" looks" and iusing the LCD display will help in that scenario - I agree that a meter will get you that maybe +1 stop exposure but you may find on looking you need a bit ,mmore/less so that is down to the artistic input of the photographer - nothing to do with an incorrect meter reading.

The other thing is the meter knows nothing about the exact exposure calibration of the camera, how much light is lost within the lens (T/stop), how accurate the actual aperture setting is, or how you might want to shift the histogram (ETTR technique).

All artistic input variables. If you decide to ETTR then setting the ratios in the camera and then shifting all light levels together will give what you want (that's artistic input)

Calibration is something that is also consistent but is easily rectified by making sure the meter is calibrated to your camera and lens. Metering to the light or camera would have the same effect.

There is no perfect method, horses for course, but I use every tool at my disposal. Metering to the light for set up, metering to the camera to get an idea of any changes there, but ultimately consulting the LCD image, with blinkies enabled, and the histogram and making a judgement for the final exposure setting.

I still cannot see any possible reason why you would meter to the camera?

But the light falling on the subject is not necessarily the same as the light reflected off the subject towards the camera and falling on the sensor. And that's what counts.

I don't get that - You set the lights the way you want them and if you move around the subject you want the appearance to change but the exposure on the subject won't change. The look may change (which is why you may move around - but the exposure will be the same). Same subject, Same position at the Same distance from the light = consistency and the very reason many use manual outside when the lighting conditions are the same.


No, but it may well change the exposure, because it changes what the camera sees, according to the nature of the subject. Agreed we may be talking about extremes here, or splitting hairs, but there will be change. We're talking portraits here, skin and hair are highly reflective, and moving the position of the camera, or angle of the light, can have a big effect on that, even though an incident reading to the light reads the same.

It would not change the exposure in any way??? the same subject in the same position at the same distance from the light.... How on earth can the exposure change? Maybe it is splitting hairs but with so many innacuraces around no wonder people get confused. Keep it simple. If you move the subject or the light the exposure will change - If the camera moves the exposure does not. When you move the reason to move is to get that difference - the exposure remains the same -

There may be an extreme excample of light bouncing off a mirror or something like that which could make a change but the reflectance of skin?? I don't think so (unless it's some extreme example)

Like I say keep it simple :)
 
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Jim, cosine law.

Since I happen to have a large fluorescent softbox right here, I just pointed it square at the wall, which is pale green silk emulsion - kind of similar texture and tonal value to skin (sans make-up). Make what you will of these exposure readings.

An incident meter reading (with dome) towards the light, let's say that reads 0.0EV. Turn the meter about 45° to one side and the reading drops -0.3EV, then at 80° to one side, the reading drops further to -0.7EV.

Then I took a spot reflected meter reading with the camera, obviously different so for ease of comparison let's also put that one at 0.0EV on-axis (straight at wall from the light position). Then pointing at the wall again from 45° to one side and the reading drops -0.6EV, and moving around with the camera quite close to the wall and about 80° from the light and the light drops again to -1.3EV.

That's just one situation - same subject, same light - metered in different ways from different positions. Other situations will be different, the point is, the subject brightness changes as the camera/light angle changes. The further away you get from the light axis, the less accurate a reading directly to the light becomes.
 
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You didn't mention any distances and a wall is a lot bigger and flatter than your average face I guess and will reflect very differently.

I still don't get that.

Everything I have been taught from every tutor says

If the light stays in the same position, and the subject doesn't move then no matter where the camera is the exposure on the subject will be the same (it has to be).

UNLESS you are metering towards the camera when already your exposure is wrong.
 
You didn't mention any distances and a wall is a lot bigger and flatter than your average face I guess and will reflect very differently.

I still don't get that.

Everything I have been taught from every tutor says

If the light stays in the same position, and the subject doesn't move then no matter where the camera is the exposure on the subject will be the same (it has to be).

UNLESS you are metering towards the camera when already your exposure is wrong.

Jim, you can pick holes in the example I gave as much as you like. But if you try the same thing, you'll find you get different readings. The light falling directly on the subject, and reflected from it at different angles, changes. Fact. Cosine law.

There is always the possibility that your tutor is mistaken. Or rather more likely, has found that it rarely makes a significant difference in practise, and I would probably agree. He's most likely also making small compensations along the way and not, in literal fact, following the meter as slavishly as you suggest. Only a fool would do that, if the evidence of their own eyes suggested something different.
 
You didn't mention any distances and a wall is a lot bigger and flatter than your average face I guess and will reflect very differently.
Sorry, but that's totally irrelevant. Any subject of any size and any contour will have differences of 'required' exposure. As we can produce only one exposure (in camera) only one small part of any subject can have perfect exposure. Richard isn't talking about a wall, he's talking about a particular point on that wall.
Everything I have been taught from every tutor says

If the light stays in the same position, and the subject doesn't move then no matter where the camera is the exposure on the subject will be the same (it has to be).

UNLESS you are metering towards the camera when already your exposure is wrong.
Sorry, but that is not only irrelevant but is also an entirely different subject. What your tutors mean is that if, for example, the distance from subject to camera is doubled the exposure will still be the same because the same amount of light is reaching the camera - at twice the distance, the effect of the inverse square law means that only a quarter of the light will reach the camera, but the light is now concentrated into 1/4 of the space, so stays the same in terms of effective power. That's so obvious and so basic that even my cat understands it, and I haven't even got a cat:)

Several people, including myself, have spent a lot of time and trouble explaining why only a measurement to camera can give an accurate reading. Again, it's obvious to anyone who
1. Has ANY understanding of physics
2. Has ANY understanding of mathmatics
3. Has actually tested it for themselves. The fact that some people who should know better (usually teachers rather than real photographers) say otherwise is their problem. Don't listen to them. Don't listen to me. Try it for yourself!

The only 'grey' area here is the fact that lighting is both a technical and a creative subject, i.e. lighting is science-based but the data can then be interpreted to create different artistic effects. But the fact that someone may want to deliberately under or over expose a subject for artistic reasons does not and cannot invalidate the correct measurement method.

Richard H explained it very clearly by mentioning cosine law. That's the maths base, as I have previously explained. An extreme example would be lighting a massive stainless steel machine (UV drying oven) that I had to photograph. Producing fairly flat lighting at the angles needed created a difference of SEVEN STOPS between measuring the light correctly by metering to the camera and by metering to one of the lights. You don't get that kind of difference with most other subjects, but the error can easily be between 0.5 - 2 stops. Problem is, some people don't know correct exposure if they fall over it and some people just shoot in raw and let ACR 'correct' the exposure, which reinforces their fallacious beliefs. People of my generation, who learned by doing on large format (read very expensive) transparency film had to get the exposure right every time, so we learned the theory and we got it right. That's how we became competent and is also how we kept our jobs...

Photography in general and lighting in particular isn't all about physics, maths and constant testing. It's about many other things too, including art - but if art is ALL that someone has then any outstanding results that they achieve will be down largely to luck, and they won't be able to replicate those results because they don't know how they achieved them in the first place...

So, it's generally best to start with science and then, when the level of understanding allows us to create technically good results without any conscious thought, we can introduce art, and get the best of both worlds. Arguing about science without understand the science, and trying to contradict the established science just because some tutor or other doesn't understand the science either, doesn't lead to progress.
 
Sorry, but that's totally irrelevant. Any subject of any size and any contour will have differences of 'required' exposure. As we can produce only one exposure (in camera) only one small part of any subject can have perfect exposure. Richard isn't talking about a wall, he's talking about a particular point on that wall.

Sorry, but that is not only irrelevant but is also an entirely different subject. What your tutors mean is that if, for example, the distance from subject to camera is doubled the exposure will still be the same because the same amount of light is reaching the camera - at twice the distance, the effect of the inverse square law means that only a quarter of the light will reach the camera, but the light is now concentrated into 1/4 of the space, so stays the same in terms of effective power. That's so obvious and so basic that even my cat understands it, and I haven't even got a cat:)
Garry maybe your cat would be betgter at reading my basic English as you have totally misunderstood :nono:

Several people, including myself, have spent a lot of time and trouble explaining why only a measurement to camera can give an accurate reading. Again, it's obvious to anyone who
1. Has ANY understanding of physics
2. Has ANY understanding of mathmatics
3. Has actually tested it for themselves. The fact that some people who should know better (usually teachers rather than real photographers) say otherwise is their problem. Don't listen to them. Don't listen to me. Try it for yourself!

The biggest difference to my lighting came when I started to meter the light rather than to the camera! I was amazed at the difference! Why would you meter a main light at X yet shoot at y? It just doesn't make any sense. No need for the childish snipes though Garry

The only 'grey' area here is the fact that lighting is both a technical and a creative subject, i.e. lighting is science-based but the data can then be interpreted to create different artistic effects. But the fact that someone may want to deliberately under or over expose a subject for artistic reasons does not and cannot invalidate the correct measurement method.

I agree

Richard H explained it very clearly by mentioning cosine law. That's the maths base, as I have previously explained. An extreme example would be lighting a massive stainless steel machine (UV drying oven) that I had to photograph. Producing fairly flat lighting at the angles needed created a difference of SEVEN STOPS between measuring the light correctly by metering to the camera and by metering to one of the lights. You don't get that kind of difference with most other subjects, but the error can easily be between 0.5 - 2 stops. Problem is, some people don't know correct exposure if they fall over it and some people just shoot in raw and let ACR 'correct' the exposure, which reinforces their fallacious beliefs. People of my generation, who learned by doing on large format (read very expensive) transparency film had to get the exposure right every time, so we learned the theory and we got it right. That's how we became competent and is also how we kept our jobs...

Garry there's obviously no point discussing. How on earth can you justify pointing the meter at the camera I don't know. Yes there will be instances that may be required for a specific situation you perhaps noted above - but we're not talking about extremes.

My argument is based on readings that the meter produces - I meter the main light on my subject at f8 my fill at f5.6 - My shooting aperture is f8

We could look at some fellows of societies who don't even bother with a meter but the Fellows that I have trained with teach this and it makes sense and proven in use to me.
 
From a HUGELY respected photographer Frank Doorhoff - A guy who shows the proof of his puddings in the images he creates which I realise in searching you guys arguing this don't do at all (or very very little)!

http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/2011/08/about-the-light-meter-in-a-quick-overview/

Exerpt here from Frank's post.


Question - "I’m always told to meter towards the camera"

I know, but trust me… that’s wrong.
When you meter towards the camera you’re metering light that comes from the camera… and although some light setups work great that way, most don’t especially in todays fashion work. You can do the test very quickly yourself. Setup your light straight above the camera on let’s say 2 mtrs, now meter towards the camera and it should be perfect, however now start moving the light more and more to the sides (keep exactly the same distance), when you meter towards the camera the value will go down, however when you meter towards the light it will stay constant, and that’s correct because the inverse square law dictates that light at the same distance will stay the same in value, and also when you shoot your model you will see that metering towards the light source is the only right way.

(Garry I see Franks cat understands me)
 
http://www.theflashcentre.com/using-a-flashmeter-c157.html

It's so obviously simple....

"Hold the flash meter in front of the subject and point it at the light"

Have you actually read that link?

That quote refers to a single light, and runs alongside a lighting set up where the light and camera are in almost the same position, ie it makes no difference.

But it also says, under item 2, meter towards the camera if using multiple lights.
 
Have you actually read that link?

That quote refers to a single light, and runs alongside a lighting set up where the light and camera are in almost the same position, ie it makes no difference.

But it also says, under item 2, meter towards the camera if using multiple lights.

this one does seem to contradict itself - Under that section where it says metering additional heads it suggests metering the light again! (maybe not the best of my examples) :)
 
Jim,

Never mind what other people say. Just think about how the laws of physics and simple maths affect the behaviour of light and the amount of light that is reflected from a subject towards the camera and try to reconcile what these people say to those facts.

And then ask yourself how people who totally ignore or misunderstand these facts can possibly be right...

And if you're still not sure, just test your/their theories for yourself...

The internet can be great, in that it can make an enormous amount of information available to an enormous number of people easily, quickly and cheaply - but the downside is that everyone suddenly becomes an expert and a self publisher and can spread disinformation. Before the internet, we had books. Books, unless self published, would be carefully checked and edited by an established technical author, which usually stopped basic errors from appearing.
 
Jim,

Never mind what other people say. Just think about how the laws of physics and simple maths affect the behaviour of light and the amount of light that is reflected from a subject towards the camera and try to reconcile what these people say to those facts.

And then ask yourself how people who totally ignore or misunderstand these facts can possibly be right...

And if you're still not sure, just test your/their theories for yourself...

The internet can be great, in that it can make an enormous amount of information available to an enormous number of people easily, quickly and cheaply - but the downside is that everyone suddenly becomes an expert and a self publisher and can spread disinformation. Before the internet, we had books. Books, unless self published, would be carefully checked and edited by an established technical author, which usually stopped basic errors from appearing.

Garry from what i see from my meter it is you who is ignoring the physics of the light. Honestly read Frank Doorhoffs posts. He got it bang on

Its about the light hitting your subject not reflecting from it.
 
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One needs to remember why we wanted this sort of meter readiung in the first place...

was it..

we want a subject agnostic reading of illumination from the point of view of the camera we are shooting with?

or

We want a subject agnostic reading of illumination from some other point of view?

Bear this in mind...
one answer works with any number of lights, the other just gives you more and more possible answers the more lights you have

Something else to think about
- why do we fundamentally need to meter in the first place?

I'm going to argue that it is because we need to slot the dynamic range of the lighting within the dynamic range of the sensor, and then, in the scenario where there is no way of doing this, to make the best judgements, to get the best results.

Whatever way we look at this, the limitations of the camera system and film/sensor system are the primary reason we need to meter
 
One needs to remember why we wanted this sort of meter readiung in the first place...

was it..

we want a subject agnostic reading of illumination from the point of view of the camera we are shooting with?

or

We want a subject agnostic reading of illumination from some other point of view?

Bear this in mind...
one answer works with any number of lights, the other just gives you more and more possible answers the more lights you have

Something else to think about
- why do we fundamentally need to meter in the first place?

I'm going to argue that it is because we need to slot the dynamic range of the lighting within the dynamic range of the sensor, and then, in the scenario where there is no way of doing this, to make the best judgements, to get the best results.

Whatever way we look at this, the limitations of the camera system and film/sensor system are the primary reason we need to meter

If the histogram tells us anything, it tells us this.
 
Histograms are great if you are shooting digital, if you want an undocumented, fairly inaccurate result

from a histogram, on the back of a real camera (as opposed to the expanded view in your fave. editor, you can just about see whats going on, and you can see if there are blinkies or not

Of course, a histogram is really only going to give you the camera metered version of the facts. So if you want, using the histogram you can set things up for the white skinned bride in the white dress, and then get a awful result for the groom

Or you can set things up for the grooms suit and blow the dress in the next shot, or you can adjust the exposure between the shots and make the "histogram look perfect" and end up with 2 different backgrounds

The reason we use a meter in the first place is to measure illumination. If we get the measurement and base adjustment right, then we pretty much will nail the exposure for any subject under the same lighting. And... if we need to repeat it next week, we can make a note of the setup and measurement and shoot next weeks products for the website with the same tone of grey background etc. etc.
 
Histograms are great if you are shooting digital, if you want an undocumented, fairly inaccurate result

from a histogram, on the back of a real camera (as opposed to the expanded view in your fave. editor, you can just about see whats going on, and you can see if there are blinkies or not

Of course, a histogram is really only going to give you the camera metered version of the facts. So if you want, using the histogram you can set things up for the white skinned bride in the white dress, and then get a awful result for the groom

Or you can set things up for the grooms suit and blow the dress in the next shot, or you can adjust the exposure between the shots and make the "histogram look perfect" and end up with 2 different backgrounds

The reason we use a meter in the first place is to measure illumination. If we get the measurement and base adjustment right, then we pretty much will nail the exposure for any subject under the same lighting. And... if we need to repeat it next week, we can make a note of the setup and measurement and shoot next weeks products for the website with the same tone of grey background etc. etc.

:thinking:

The 'metered version of the facts' is what the meter gives you. What the histogram tells you, and in considerable detail especially when used in conjuntion with both the LCD image and blinkes, what is actually recorded on the sensor.*

The prudent photographer uses all the tools at their disposal, and ignores the histogram at their peril. Especially for wedding photography where the priority is to get maximum detail in the white dress without blowing it, and by pushing the histogram to the right, this both ensures that and at the same time will also put as much exposure as possible into the groom's dark suit. Blinkies will warn you, very precisely, when you're on the brink of blowing and you can make a decision.

Neg film is very tolerant of over-exposure, digital is not. If you rely on a straight incident light meter reading, it will put 18% grey in the right place and the exposure will be 'correct' technically, but if the bride is back-lit for example, parts of the dress and veil are very likely to blow, and then you're stuffed.

*Turn down the contrast level in picture styles, and the histogram/blinkies will be extremely close to what is on the raw file. Know your camera and post processing regime and it's easy to optimise exposure and maximise dynamic range.
 
:thinking:

The 'metered version of the facts' is what the meter gives you. What the histogram tells you, and in considerable detail especially when used in conjuntion with both the LCD image and blinkes, what is actually recorded on the sensor.*

Really interpreting that data is very difficult in many cases. Unless you are just looking at highlught / shadow clipping. Yes it can be very useful though for more than that but in the main that's how I use it. With I do use it with a grey card for exposure sometimes.

The prudent photographer uses all the tools at their disposal, and ignores the histogram at their peril. Especially for wedding photography where the priority is to get maximum detail in the white dress without blowing it, and by pushing the histogram to the right, this both ensures that and at the same time will also put as much exposure as possible into the groom's dark suit. Blinkies will warn you, very precisely, when you're on the brink of blowing and you can make a decision.

To be honest blowing out detail isn't that big an issue for many of the images on a wedding day I'd rather get the faces exposed properly and if that means losing a little detail on a shot so be it.

Neg film is very tolerant of over-exposure, digital is not. If you rely on a straight incident light meter reading, it will put 18% grey in the right place and the exposure will be 'correct' technically, but if the bride is back-lit for example, parts of the dress and veil are very likely to blow, and then you're stuffed.

If a bride is back lit I would expect the dress detail to be blown (and may intentionally want that) but it depends on the look you are aiming for. Some flash will fill would fix the exposure - In that case again metering to the light (not the camera) will provide the aperture and flash to fill.

*Turn down the contrast level in picture styles, and the histogram/blinkies will be extremely close to what is on the raw file. Know your camera and post processing regime and it's easy to optimise exposure and maximise dynamic range.

I don't disagree that the histogram is a very useful tool though.
 
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Jim.

I watched this video and at the beginning he sets his cameras shutter speed to 1/125, but when he meters, the reading is 1/60 and f5.6 .3, Im a bit confused, any info would be appreciated.

Phil
Why not watch my one instead?


With most flash meters, the meter will account for the effect of any ambient light that also exists, but it's at such a low level (normally) that it makes no difference to the reading.

Obviously the meter doesn't know which shutter speed the camera is set to, so the user sets it on the meter. In the video you linked to, he got it wrong.
 
Jim.

I watched this video and at the beginning he sets his cameras shutter speed to 1/125, but when he meters, the reading is 1/60 and f5.6 .3, Im a bit confused, any info would be appreciated.

Phil

Don't worry about it, that's just a 'continuity' error in the making of the video.

As a rule, shutter speed makes no difference to the flash exposure though there are some caveats. It must normally be at or below the camera's max x-sync speed, usually around 1/200 to 1/250sec. However, most manufacturers suggest a lower speed than that with studio flash because sometimes they can take a millisecond to ramp up to full brightness and if you're right on the limit, you may get some very fractional shading at the bottom of the frame.

The other thing is radio triggers, that often introduce a tiny delay and that can cause a black band to appear at the bottom of the frame when running at the max x-sync speed.

In either situation, 1/125sec usually covers both eventualities and will give 100% clean exposure, without affecting anything else.

Edit: crossed post with Garry.
 
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