light meter for a wedding????

Chrisly2009

Chrisly2009

Suspended / Banned
Messages
49
Name
Chris
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi guys

quick one - inexperienced wedding photographer looking to better my exposure and overall look to each shot - can you feasibly use a light meter at any stage of a wedding to achieve this??
 
Your camera has a very good meter built in, that can do anything a hand meter can do, and much more besides.

If you're having exposure problems, you need to learn how to use it better.
 
:plusone:

Also, if you are doing large posed family group shots then you could go non TTL with a few lights and use a flash meter to set up
 
I would think a light meter would be of little use at a wedding, except perhaps for obtaining general figures earlier inside a church where flash is not permitted so you can go to a setting straight away. Othertimes exposure bracketting would be a better option.
In a studio a meter would be more useful for accurate exposure and setting ratios.
 
if you have one - then why not take the guesswork out of exposures - Your camera meter wants to set the exposure to mid grey - you have more wisdom than the camera (hopefully). I use the red brick or green grass to set my exposure as this is as near to mid grey you can get in colour
 
essayphotography said:
if you have one - then why not take the guesswork out of exposures - Your camera meter wants to set the exposure to mid grey - you have more wisdom than the camera (hopefully). I use the red brick or green grass to set my exposure as this is as near to mid grey you can get in colour
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what a hand meter does...

In addition, a camera meter has matrix/evaluative, which is like taking a couple of dozen spot meter readings and calculating the answer in like three milliseconds.

If you want an incident reading, then spot meter off an 18% grey card, or get one of those little diffuser type lens caps for a fiver and that's what you've got (though popping a coffee filter over the lens works just as well).

Then, best of all, you have the LCD, the histogram, and blinkies to assist. And that is more accurate than any hand meter reading, ever.

Edit: hand meters are convenient for setting lighting ratios in the studio. Apart from that, I'm not sure what.
 
Last edited:
chrisly said:
Hi guys

quick one - inexperienced wedding photographer looking to better my exposure and overall look to each shot - can you feasibly use a light meter at any stage of a wedding to achieve this??
Click to expand...

Yes - I use one a lot. Your camera will tend to screw things up if you let it, and a light meter tells you

1. What light is actually falling on a subject
2. What light is being reflected from a specific part of a subject
3. The dynamic range of light within a scene

Armed with this information you can then come up with an exposure that doesn't blow the dress or make you clip all of the blacks. It will also let you know that you need additional light or that you need to move the whole shabang under the shade of a tree (although experience will help you with this one)

When you start adding flash your light meter will also tell you (assuming it measures flash)
1. The contribution from the flash
2. The contribution from the ambient
3. The overall exposure

Of course you can
1. Never use off camera flash
2. Never leave the comfort zone of TTL flash exposure
3. Ignore blowing the dress
4. Ignore clipping blacks
5. Never quite get fill flash balanced how you want it
6. Have a high rate of unexplained under or over exposures

You get this if you rely on your camera to do everything for you

When you move over to using a light meter to help you...
1. For a while you still screw stuff up
2. Eventually you start figuring out what the numbers mean, because YOU are interpretingthem from shot to shot
3. Then you start being able to be really creative with exposure KNOWING what is going on

NOW...
you could argue that the camera has a light meter in it - it does, however honestly, when you have ....

- auto ISO
- auto Exposure
- A, P, S modes
- TTL flash

... Do you really concentrate on the triad of exposure variables 100% - I bet - not often

What a meter/flash meter does is

1. slows you down
2. arms YOU with real quantitive information

If you are the sort that can be slowed down, can absorb the info and can then remember the differences from shot to shot, your work will improve a lot

Some will argue that the camera has a histogram - and yes it is very useful, but it is
1. After the event
2. Only available on digital
3. Usually not available in RGB (not relevant to this discussion)

Additionally, if you are looking at the histogram, you are not looking at the image (chimping) and you are not looking at the scene around you. It must be tedious to have to look at each shot, and then look at the histogram for each shot.
 
Last edited:
Richard King said:
Yes - I use one a lot. Your camera will tend to screw things up if you let it, and a light meter tells you

1. What light is actually falling on a subject
2. What light is being reflected from a specific part of a subject
3. The dynamic range of light within a scene

Armed with this information you can then come up with an exposure that doesn't blow the dress or make you clip all of the blacks. It will also let you know that you need additional light or that you need to move the whole shabang under the shade of a tree (although experience will help you with this one)

When you start adding flash your light meter will also tell you (assuming it measures flash)
1. The contribution from the flash
2. The contribution from the ambient
3. The overall exposure

Of course you can
1. Never use off camera flash
2. Never leave the comfort zone of TTL flash exposure
3. Ignore blowing the dress
4. Ignore clipping blacks
5. Never quite get fill flash balanced how you want it
6. Have a high rate of unexplained under or over exposures

You get this if you rely on your camera to do everything for you

When you move over to using a light meter to help you...
1. For a while you still screw stuff up
2. Eventually you start figuring out what the numbers mean, because YOU are interpretingthem from shot to shot
3. Then you start being able to be really creative with exposure KNOWING what is going on

NOW...
you could argue that the camera has a light meter in it - it does, however honestly, when you have ....

- auto ISO
- auto Exposure
- A, P, S modes
- TTL flash

... Do you really concentrate on the triad of exposure variables 100% - I bet - not often

What a meter/flash meter does is

1. slows you down
2. arms YOU with real quantitive information

If you are the sort that can be slowed down, can absorb the info and can then remember the differences from shot to shot, your work will improve a lot

Some will argue that the camera has a histogram - and yes it is very useful, but it is
1. After the event
2. Only available on digital
3. Usually not available in RGB (not relevant to this discussion)

Additionally, if you are looking at the histogram, you are not looking at the image (chimping) and you are not looking at the scene around you. It must be tedious to have to look at each shot, and then look at the histogram for each shot.
Click to expand...

Hi Richard,

slightly OT, but I just wondered how this, and this http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=4390075&postcount=4 (while great advice) fit with the documentary stele you push so strongly?

Cheers

Hugh
 
boyfalldown said:
Hi Richard,

slightly OT, but I just wondered how this, and this http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=4390075&postcount=4 (while great advice) fit with the documentary stele you push so strongly?

Cheers

Hugh
Click to expand...

Hugh You are an experienced photographer, so this isn't aimed at you... However to answer your question I will provide a global answer

Understanding light - the amount of it, the range of it and the quality of it is a prerequisite for any good photographer regardless of style or what you are shooting. A meter is only one tool in the armoury of tools (including your brain, a histogram, the camera meter) that helps you understand it

I am not advocating using a light meter for every shot, but on occasions, knowing that "that corner of the room" is F4 and "that corner" is F8 is very useful.

Pre-setting up lighting has nothing to do with documentary shooting (or any other style), it just means you are prepared for what's going to happen next.

Pre-metering a scene has nothing to do with documentary shooting (or any other style), it just means you are prepared for what's going to happen next.

Often I will meter off an assistant in a location, knowing the B&G will be there in a minute, and make a mental note of the setting. My style has a lot to do with anticipation.

Forgetting all of the noise about my style....

Good photography is about

- light
- composition
- timing

The end result is a print or image on the screen

It has both a..

- technical / scientific element
- artistic creative element

I feel in these debates we always miss out one element or the other. I can be as artistic, candid and unobtrusive as you like. If I screw up the exposure, I have screwed up the shot, the artistic element of the shot is destroyed anyway.

It is the photographers skill that allows one to seamlessly technically nail a shot AND get the artistic element of the shot in the bag too. No mater how much we protest, argue or debate this, we need to sort both elements out. How we do it is up for debate, there are no right answers. If someone said to me I use the sunny 16 rule, it works for me every time - then that's cool, they have found a short-cut that works.

Me - I use a combination of metering in camera, metering out of the camera, and an the application of common sense and foresight. I use things like the sunny 16 rule to keep me in check.

What I do advocate is spending some time THINKING about exposure. That's a general photography observation, not just aimed at weddings..

I say this, and I will keep saying it:
With P, A, S modes + auto ISO + TTL flash there are way too many decisions being made for you by your camera. While these decisions sort of make sure all shots are basically OK, they strip your chance to be really creative and in control. Throw in the mix that the camera makes the decisions for you on the basis of the metering pattern you (or the camera) chose and you can start to see why people struggle.

Using a hand held meter can put you back to a position of shooting from first principles, helping you deal with the following questions...

- What is the illumination of the scene?
- How do I want my shot to look?
- How much flash do I want to use?
- What ISO do I want?
- What Aperture do I want?
- What Shutter speed do I want?

Of course that also means if you are making a compromise you are in charge of it (not the camera)

---

On reflection I also want to add

At a typical wedding I shoot (non complete list)

- landscapes
- fireworks
- portraits
- indoors
- outdoors
- with on camera flash
- with off camera flash
- with "pre installed" flash heads
- using a reflector
- using a torch
- still lifes
- food
- totally candid work
- up close and personal candids
- a few posed group shots
- into the light
- with the light behind me
- in the morning
- in full sun
- at night (moonlight)
- on a tripod
- On a monopod
- In mixed lighting
- in a moving car

The point I am making is that modern wedding are particularly fluid and changing, and the range of work you need to pull out of the bag in a day can vary greatly, and is often quite challenging. I will settle for any tool at my disposal to make my life easier or do a better job. Shooting fireworks outside in the rain 30 seconds after being in a dark marquee doing the bouquet toss is totally normal for me. You cant work like that without pre-metering or being prepared
 
Last edited:
HoppyUK said:
Your camera has a very good meter built in, that can do anything a hand meter can do, and much more besides.

If you're having exposure problems, you need to learn how to use it better.
Click to expand...

How about taking an incident light reading? Which is what I do on group shots and when I'm not totally sure a reflected reading is correct.

Personally I like a light meter to use as a back up, when faced with a Bride in bright white dress a reflected light reading in any camera is going to be wrong no matter how much you paid for it, I think having experience in this situation helps but you'll never be 100% sure depending on the light what the exact compensation to a reflected reading you need to make.
 
chivers67 said:
How about taking an incident light reading? Which is what I do on group shots and when I'm not totally sure a reflected reading is correct.

Personally I like a light meter to use as a back up, when faced with a Bride in bright white dress a reflected light reading in any camera is going to be wrong no matter how much you paid for it, I think having experience in this situation helps but you'll never be 100% sure depending on the light what the exact compensation to a reflected reading you need to make.
Click to expand...

Camera meter can take an incident reading, with an Exposdisc, or a dome attachment on eebay for a fiver, or make one yourself with a sheet of paper. Not that I would bother - histogram and blinkies are a more accurate guide to exposure in difficult situations and faster to use than wandering about with a meter.

Hand meters are good for flash, but not much else.
 
I realise its a matter of personal preference but Mark Cleghorn in his wedding videos on PT4U always uses a light meter for the set up of all the staged shots and even a lot of the candid (reportage) type stuff. He very rarely trusts the cameras metering for anything as he believes that light meter is an almost fool proof method of determining exposure. As a result you see him running around a lot as he doesn't work with an assistant either so he's taking meter readings and shooting as well.

In not saying its right or wrong. Just advising that there are those out there that believe a light meter is essential tool in their wedding photography. I think there's only you who can answer whether it works for you.
 
HoppyUK said:
Which is exactly what a hand meter does...

In addition, a camera meter has matrix/evaluative, which is like taking a couple of dozen spot meter readings and calculating the answer in like three milliseconds.

If you want an incident reading, then spot meter off an 18% grey card, or get one of those little diffuser type lens caps for a fiver and that's what you've got (though popping a coffee filter over the lens works just as well).

Then, best of all, you have the LCD, the histogram, and blinkies to assist. And that is more accurate than any hand meter reading, ever.

Edit: hand meters are convenient for setting lighting ratios in the studio. Apart from that, I'm not sure what.
Click to expand...

I agree with this entirely. And I use a $5 white lens cap for incident readings (almost never).

IMO, a meter doesn't really "do" anything for you...it simply tells you the light levels and what it thinks a proper exposure is. I.e. even an incident meter isn't going to prevent white from blowing out or black from being to dark. It's just not fooled by the color of the subject/scene.

And I REALLY disagree with the notion that the only way to be "in control" is to be in full manual mode. Current cameras can be set up to "think" like I do; and to make the same tradeoffs, in the same order of priority, as I would for a given situation. Most Nikons are very flexible in this, only the newest Canon's are.
 
A light meter answers the question 'how much light is there here?'. A photographer uses that information to his advantage.

Manual exposure mode allows you to the flexibiltiy to change subjects in the same light without having to re-meter and to be confidant of your exposure. There's more than one way to fry a fish.

Hand held Light meters, Manual exposure modes and any other choice is only as good as the operator. There's no right or wrong other than insisting that there's only one right way.
 
As Phil says, a light meter is just a measuring tool, whether it's in the camera or hand, though there is a key difference. A hand meter measures the light in/on the scene, whereas a TTL camera meter measures what's coming through the lens. Taking that a step further with digital, the histogram and blinkies actually measure the light recorded on the sensor (which is as close to absolute as you can get) and there can be quite a difference if you want exposure absolutely spot on.

Some folks seem to think that an incident reading is some kind of infallible measure, which it isn't. It works on a set of basic assumptions, that usually apply, but not always. And it won't help with things like ETTR technique for optimum exposure, for which you need a histogram and blinkies. I use this all the time and sometimes it makes a big difference.

Each to their own and whatever works for you. I really don't want to get into (another) hypothetical hair-splitting excercise :D
 
Best not to over-complicate things - as someone has already said, you want to know how much light is falling on your subjects - in the "old days" we'd point something like an FM2 at the grass or tarmac at around 45 degrees - that's roughly 18% grey - that's the light falling, job done!
 
Organnyx said:
Best not to over-complicate things - as someone has already said, you want to know how much light is falling on your subjects - in the "old days" we'd point something like an FM2 at the grass or tarmac at around 45 degrees - that's roughly 18% grey - that's the light falling, job done!
Click to expand...

It's amazing how the technology has evolved over the last 30 years.

Nowadays I point something like a 7d at the grass or tarmac at around 45 degrees - that's roughly 18% grey - that's the light falling, job done!:lol:

Wow - blistering speed of change:D
 
I don't photograph weddings but I used to, and I always had a meter with me.
I think that my cameras were clever enough, and that I was clever enough, not to need it but it was reassuring to have it in the bag, just in case.

Just in case of what? Well, it was always possible that both digital cameras might die on me and that I might end up shooting on the reserve film camera, where a meter might have a real role to play. And of course it was possible that I might come across a lighting situation that neither my camera nor I could work out.

And once or twice I did think about wearing it around my neck, to make me look more important.

None of these things ever happened though:)
 
Garry Edwards said:
I don't photograph weddings but I used to, and I always had a meter with me.
I think that my cameras were clever enough, and that I was clever enough, not to need it but it was reassuring to have it in the bag, just in case.

Just in case of what? Well, it was always possible that both digital cameras might die on me and that I might end up shooting on the reserve film camera, where a meter might have a real role to play. And of course it was possible that I might come across a lighting situation that neither my camera nor I could work out.

And once or twice I did think about wearing it around my neck, to make me look more important.

None of these things ever happened though:)
Click to expand...

Excellent marketing. Should always take a few readings from around the bride, or whoever is paying the bill :D
 
Digitalize said:
Explain how you would light meter the bride throwing a bouquet. Considering constant changing light conditions.
Click to expand...

It's not. But neither is it possible to shoot and check and reshoot.

Though both methods are valid for preparation of the shot.

It's preparation and understanding that's the key rather than method or gear.
 
For all it costs nowadays for a meter,why not have one in the bag?.:shrug:
 
Digitalize said:
Explain how you would light meter the bride throwing a bouquet. Considering constant changing light conditions.
Click to expand...


Unless there are fleeting clouds, Light changes very little in an open situation.

In the old days, I took a few incident readings.
Back to light
facing light
shade
full sun

Then forgot the meter till things changed.


To day if you range a digital SLR over a group, side to side, you will find a range of exposures. Which one is true for the group?
All you are measuring is the various changing reflectances of their clothes, the light is the same.
An incident reading will be constant in this situation and give a balanced set of exposures as members of the groups change.
 
Did I mention my light meter is also a flash meter. very useful for setting up flash heads , and getting manual flash settings right...
 
I use a hand held light meter at weddings, sure you can use the meter built into the camera but for me, I find the handheld meter quicker, 1 press of a button and I've got a reading that I an make a choice based on :)
 
sk66 said:
The camera does that...and you don't have to reposition to use it like you might with an incident meter.
Click to expand...

The incident meter gives a reading of the actual light falling on the subject so is more accurate than an in camera meter which measures the light reflected from the subject - which is obviously dependent upon the reflection (colour, etc.) of the subject.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
The incident meter gives a reading of the actual light falling on the subject so is more accurate than an in camera meter which measures the light reflected from the subject - which is obviously dependent upon the reflection (colour, etc.) of the subject.


Steve.
Click to expand...

The light falling on the sensor/film makes the image
This effected by

The number, shape and thickness of bits of glass between subject and sensor no two lenses even the same make and model are identical
There are tolerances in the shape, thickness and light transmitting properties on each element of any lens
There are tolerances on the manufacture of the diaphragm
There are tolerances on the lens mount both on the lens and on the body
There are tolerances on the thickness of the coatings
There is a tolerance on the shutter speed

If you take( as I have ) a few cameras and lenses start with a meter reading then set up each camera/lens to the histogram each will show a different f number for a given shutter speed

When I was involved in the experiment ,one light meter four Camera/lenses five different results
All checked be five photographers total variation 1.6 stops

That would suggest to me that a light meter reading will only get you in the ballpark of the right exposure

BTW I am not a great Photographer but I do have a lot of years engineering in the design and manufacture of optics
 
Interesting findings - where does absolute zero fit into your username?
 
paulminus273 said:
The light falling on the sensor/film makes the image
This effected by

The number, shape and thickness of bits of glass between subject and sensor no two lenses even the same make and model are identical
There are tolerances in the shape, thickness and light transmitting properties on each element of any lens
There are tolerances on the manufacture of the diaphragm
There are tolerances on the lens mount both on the lens and on the body
There are tolerances on the thickness of the coatings
There is a tolerance on the shutter speed

If you take( as I have ) a few cameras and lenses start with a meter reading then set up each camera/lens to the histogram each will show a different f number for a given shutter speed

When I was involved in the experiment ,one light meter four Camera/lenses five different results
All checked be five photographers total variation 1.6 stops

That would suggest to me that a light meter reading will only get you in the ballpark of the right exposure

BTW I am not a great Photographer but I do have a lot of years engineering in the design and manufacture of optics
Click to expand...

Anyone that has not actually done a side by side comparison like this, will not believe you. I spend half my life testing lenses and comparing them under identical conditions, mostly on the same camera, and the exposure variances never fail to amaze me. Histogram shifts a lot.

The biggest variance by far is vignetting at lower f/numbers, then transmission, and aperture inaccuracies, usually at higher f/numbers. They can easily add up to more than one stop when they all compound in the wrong direction, and half a stop at least is absolutely normal, including with the best L and pro-grade.

Try a few different lenses at lowest f/number, particularly fast ones like f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes, then at say f/5.6 or f/8 and at f/22. Compare them against eachother and against an incident meter reading :eek: A hand meter cannot take any of this into account, while TTL metering hides a multitude of sins. The histogram and blinkies never lie :)
 
Last edited:
paulminus273 said:
The light falling on the sensor/film makes the image
This effected by

The number, shape and thickness of bits of glass between subject and sensor no two lenses even the same make and model are identical
There are tolerances in the shape, thickness and light transmitting properties on each element of any lens
There are tolerances on the manufacture of the diaphragm
There are tolerances on the lens mount both on the lens and on the body
There are tolerances on the thickness of the coatings
There is a tolerance on the shutter speed

If you take( as I have ) a few cameras and lenses start with a meter reading then set up each camera/lens to the histogram each will show a different f number for a given shutter speed

When I was involved in the experiment ,one light meter four Camera/lenses five different results
All checked be five photographers total variation 1.6 stops

That would suggest to me that a light meter reading will only get you in the ballpark of the right exposure

BTW I am not a great Photographer but I do have a lot of years engineering in the design and manufacture of optics
Click to expand...

Most of that is guff but not wrong...
That is why professional and serious photographers always established their own exposure indexes instead of using the published ISO settings.
Such an index can vary with the equipment used but is very reliable once established.

It would be silly to reject the proven reliability and tonal consistency of using Incident metering with any light source.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Most of that is guff but not wrong...
That is why professional and serious photographers always established their own exposure indexes instead of using the published ISO settings.
Such an index can vary with the equipment used but is very reliable once established.

It would be silly to reject the proven reliability and tonal consistency of using Incident metering with any light source.
Click to expand...

A lot of it might not be relevant Terry, but some of it is and significant variances certainly do exist.

I'm not at all sure that many folks, professional or otherwise, calibrate their meters and even if they did, changes at different apertures due to vignetting, light transmission and inaccurate aperture settings would require a multitude of different calibrations. Hand meters have their uses but infallible accuracy of exposure setting is not one of them.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
Most of that is guff but not wrong...
That is why professional and serious photographers always established their own exposure indexes instead of using the published ISO settings.
Such an index can vary with the equipment used but is very reliable once established.

It would be silly to reject the proven reliability and tonal consistency of using Incident metering with any light source.
Click to expand...

For an experienced pro photographer using high end kit ( probably factoring in subconsciously the variables after years of experience ) your point holds true.

However pro kit is expensive (every time you half a tolerance you double the manufacturing cost ) .
So for us mere mortals using bodies and lenses costing hundreds of pounds not thousands of pounds there are too many variables to relay on a hand Held meter with any hope of a good exposure .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top