Lencarta Triggers

[HoppyUK]

There's no logical reason why this couldn't happen. The interface between hotshoe and (say) SB900 is pretty complex. For one thing this is how you do firmware updates to the flashguns. For another, the camera definitely knows what kind of flash it has attached. The triggers I've tested with similar properties even fool the exif into thinking there's a speed light firing.

But it seems unlikely that Nikon would miss something like this. I guess it would also raise the possibility of Nikon tweaking their camera firmware to stop this trigger working.

Either way, if the independent reviews prove favourable I hope you have your IP lawyers on standby. It's sad state of the photography industry that if somebody invented something revolutionary like this then eBay would be flooded with 30 quid clones in a couple of weeks

No trigger can affect the way the camera shutter operates, and it's not how firmware updates are done either - they go through a firware port. And I'm not the only one to see what's actually happening here, I'm just trying to explain the physics. I didn't expect to make any friends by doing so, but my IP lawyers are sitting comfortably.

At the heart of it, and what makes some of Lencarta's claims impossible, is the camera's focal plane shutter. As I told Garry almost three weeks ago, on here, a simple test with an an IGBT hot-shoe gun at anything less than full power will a) not work, as he has since discovered, and b) the explanation for that would reveal the true nature of the beast. Lencarta has not grasped the implications of why it doesn't work at anything except full power with a hot-shoe gun, which is fundamental.

At that time, Garry said he was going to do these tests, to explore the boundaries as he put it, and now we see the Mach 1N's instructions clearly state "Most types of hotshoe flash or other IGBT flashes must be used at full power." http://www.lencarta.com/mach1n_ins.pdf So Lencarta now admits the Mach 1N won't work with hot-shoe guns at anything less than full power, but has failed explain the reason why. What I have done is attempt to explain it, and it is simply this: with a hot-shoe gun at anything less than full power, the IGBT control cuts off the tail of the flash, and without a tail you get no exposure with the Mach 1N, because it's a tail-sync trigger. Case closed, basically.

What I would like to see, and it's hardly a difficult test, is this. Take a hot-shoe gun, in a darkened room so that the only light is from the flash, the subject to include a plain wall covering the full depth of the image at some point.

For starters, take a normal flash shot as a control. Fire the flash at full power, in normal x-sync mode, at 1/250sec. Adjust for correct exposure and note the settings. The exposure level will be high of course, with even illumination top to bottom, and good colour - situation normal.

Now engage the Mach 1N trigger and do the same, taking shots at progressively higher shutter speeds. The exposure will immediately become much darker, and will become progressively further under-exposed with every stop of increased shutter speed. Adjust aperture and ISO to restore corect exposure, and note the shift from the control shot. In addition to substantially reduced exposure, the image will be significanly brighter at the bottom and darker at the top, because the shutter is running down the frame in sync with the fading tail of the flash pulse.

Final check, Mach 1N trigger, hot-shoe gun at full power, shutter speed at say 1/4000sec, exposure correctly adjusted. Now turn down the flash power, to 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th etc. The frame will be mostly black.

Seriously, these tests can be done in 20 minutes and they'll be conclusive.

 

[boyfalldown]

and it's not how firmware updates are done either - they go through a firware port. And I'm not the only one to see what's actually happening here,

Nikon speedlights have firmware updated via the hotshoe, by sitting them on a body and loading the new firmware via the CF (or SD) slots on the body.

Your physics makes perfect sense to me.

I'm hoping Lencarta have found some way to achieve this, I'm not sure how but then I miss many things so that means little really.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I don't disagree with any of that. Except the bit about the SB900 having a firmware port. You put the new f/w on a card, put the card in your camera, put the flash on the hotshoe and press a few buttons and the f/w makes its way from the card to the flash via the hotshoe. I honestly thought it was magic when I tried it.

http://www.nikonsupport.eu/europe/kdb/en/2008/26129/En/sb900_win_en_ABF.html

I've had too much coffee and too little sleep to make sense of that PDF from Lencarta. There appears to be an infographic that will show how much light you lose by increasing the shutter speed. But it's not there

 

[HoppyUK]

Nikon speedlights have firmware updated via the hotshoe, by sitting them on a body and loading the new firmware via the CF (or SD) slots on the body.

Your physics makes perfect sense to me.

I'm hoping Lencarta have found some way to achieve this, I'm not sure how but then I miss many things so that means little really.

That's the important point - the physics of how it works and what is possible. Cheers

I don't disagree with any of that. Except the bit about the SB900 having a firmware port. You put the new f/w on a card, put the card in your camera, put the flash on the hotshoe and press a few buttons and the f/w makes its way from the card to the flash via the hotshoe. I honestly thought it was magic when I tried it.

http://www.nikonsupport.eu/europe/kdb/en/2008/26129/En/sb900_win_en_ABF.html

I've had too much coffee and too little sleep to make sense of that PDF from Lencarta. There appears to be an infographic that will show how much light you lose by increasing the shutter speed. But it's not there

Yes, I see where you and Hugh are coming from now, apologies. The firmware port is technically the memory card slot, and that sends data one way, from the camera to the flash, but I guess you're saying if there's a route out, there may also be a route in. But it still can't change the way the mechanical shutter runs, by a huge amount, which is what Garry appears to be suggesting.

There is a lot missing from Lencarta's explanations, and what little we have seen actually supports what I'm saying. It's all this smoke and mirrors stuff that's causing the trouble, though I dare say I'll get the blame. Ho hum.

As I recall Jonathan, you were actually the very first poster to express doubts a couple of weeks ago, after Garry's initial post

 

[Garry Edwards]

Richard,

Your test is valid, I'll carry it out and publish the results. I'm not sure about the 20 minute bit, I need to finish off a big commercial shoot first and clear the studio

But hotshoe guns isn't really what it's all about. It is about the ability to use fast shutter speeds with powerful studio and portable flash systems, to both freeze fast action and to control the effect of ambient light.

 

[JonathanRyan]

As I recall Jonathan, you were actually the very first poster to express doubts a couple of weeks ago, after Garry's initial post

Kind of....

As I recall (OK, I just looked it up) I originally said that I'd tried the triggers and they were kind of nice but fairly limited.

Garry then said "I don't think you have" which suggests that the Lencarta branded triggers are different ones from those kicking round China ATM (FWIW it's really hard to tell since lots of people use the same casing - I've seen some in a VERY similar package to those...).

He also went on to explain that there is no loss of power. I suggested that actually, a 3 stop reduction really is a loss of power....

Then I kind of lost interest in the thread due having work to do. Which is going to happen again I'm afraid. My diary is blue for the next week which means darkened room time. I guess by then the first user trials will be in.

Also by then somebody with an oscilloscope and £199 will be able to tell us how these work

 

[Cris_L]

I just wish someone would sit a model on a hill in bright sunlight and test the triggers with a safari lion and show the difference these would make compared to eg Yn603's.

All the physics is great if it interests you but real world is what will swing it for me.

 

[HoppyUK]

Richard,

Your test is valid, I'll carry it out and publish the results. I'm not sure about the 20 minute bit, I need to finish off a big commercial shoot first and clear the studio

But hotshoe guns isn't really what it's all about. It is about the ability to use fast shutter speeds with powerful studio and portable flash systems, to both freeze fast action and to control the effect of ambient light.

Excellent! Do it now, there must be a plain wall not far away

The reason I suggest a hot-shoe gun is because Lencarta claims it works with any flash, and hot-shoe guns have inherantly shorter flash durations, even at full power, compared to studio heads. In other words, there is a tail, but it's relatively short.

The only tests we have seen so far are all with studio-type heads, and the Lencartas as a breed tend to have longer durations than most of that kind. So they conceal the shortcomings of the tail-sync technique, whereas a hot-shoe gun will show its weaknesses more clearly. Try it with a shorter duration Elinchrom A-head if you have one to hand, or Profoto, that will be interesting too and relevant to a lot of folks.

The particular questions I want to see answered are a) how much power is lost with the trigger enabled, at all shutter speeds from 1/250sec upwards, compared to normal x-sync, and b) an illustration that shows the extent of the fall-off top to bottom of the frame. That will become more noticeable at highest shutter speeds, and you may also get a slight colour shift.

I am not attempting to suggest that the Mach triggers don't work, or can be a useful tool in some situations, only how they work, ie tail sync. And as such they will be subject to the same limitations this method has always had.

And FWIW, the other test that I believe you have planned, using high shutter speeds and a subject like motocross or BMX bikes, will probably work quite well if you use a Safari Li-on, because that particular flash has both high 600Ws of power and particularly long flash durations. That allows the tail-sync to work at its best, and with the power of the Li-on punched through a high intensity tulip reflector, it will still have enough light to do the job, while the exposure fall-off top to bottom will be minimal and unlikely to be noticed.

We we know this much aleady, nothing new there, but that is a million miles from being able to do this with any flash, to over-power the sun easily with any flash, and to make all high speed flash systems redundant - which are just a few of Lencarta's claims.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Excellent! Do it now, there must be a plain wall not far away

I'll do it when I'm at work. That's where the equipment is. But as I said, first I need to finish the job I'm paid to do and clear the decks.

The reason I suggest a hot-shoe gun is because Lencarta claims it works with any flash, and hot-shoe guns have inherantly shorter flash durations, even at full power, compared to studio heads. In other words, there is a tail, but it's relatively short.

It does work with hotshoe flashes, although that isn't where the benefits are really gained. I have a SB-800, a SB-600, a Cobra & a Vivitar (I think) and there is also another, new hotshoe flash that I haven't even looked at yet, I think it's designed for Nikon but I'll have to check.

And FWIW, the other test that I believe you have planned, using high shutter speeds and a subject like motocross or BMX bikes, will probably work quite well if you use a Safari Li-on, because that particular flash has both high 600Ws of power and particularly long flash durations. That allows the tail-sync to work at its best, and with the power of the Li-on punched through a high intensity tulip reflector, it will still have enough light to do the job, while the exposure fall-off top to bottom will be minimal and unlikely to be noticed.

Yes, that's the plan, arranged by someone else. It's highly relevant because
1. A well-respected tester (you) said that the only problem with the Li-on is the flash duration - if that is a real problem, and in can be only when photographing fast-moving subjects in bright sun, then this trigger solves that problem completely. And this, together with freezing action in the studio without the need to buy very expensive, short duration studio flash heads, is what this trigger is really about.

We we know this much aleady, nothing new there, but that is a million miles from being able to do this with any flash, to over-power the sun easily with any flash, and to make all high speed flash systems redundant - which are just a few of Lencarta's claims.

I'll ask Michael to include a hotshoe flash in his outdoor tests, and overpower the sun with it, if he can find any sun. But comparative tests will prove its worth even if there isn't any sun. Obviously if there is sun then the Safari Li-on, with its much higher native power, will do the job better but the tests will still prove the point. If any of the tests show that any of the claims made are exaggerated or wrong in any way then the webpage will be changed. I don't want to deceive anyone, I don't want anyone to be disappointed with anything that they buy, based on what I have said about it.

And I welcome questions, doubts and comments. I had plenty of doubts myself when this concept was introduced to me.

 

[HoppyUK]

Excellent

 

[Rob Galbraith]

I suppose there are lots of ways to go about testing the effectiveness of the Mach 1N transceivers. As I already own several PocketWizard MiniTT1/FlexTT5s for Nikon, what I'd most like to see are comparison pictures showing how the Lencarta offering compares to the PocketWizards at really high shutter speeds when the latter is configured for "tail"-type HyperSync (and the HyperSync timing is optimally set for the flash in use).

If a test like this shows that the Mach 1N has an advantage in brightness, evenness or colour temp, or all three, I'd order a set straight away. If a comparison with PocketWizard HyperSync isn't possible, then pitting the Mach 1Ns against a better DIY hack would be useful. But the PocketWizards provide the finest control over the timing of the flash firing, relative to the camera's shutter opening, of any trigger I know of, so they'd probably make for the most useful sparring partner in this instance.

Until something like this is done, and/or more carefully vetted technical data is available from Cononmark or whomever is doing the high speed sync programming in the Mach 1N, I'd suggest Garry that the info about how the 1N works be removed from the Lencarta website and blog. The errors are pretty numerous, plus the text describes "Hypersynch" as being "virtually useless." And we may well learn at the end of this process that the Mach 1N is in doing the very same thing as PocketWizard HyperSync.

As for the subject matter, I'll cast my vote for a a white wall in a darkened room. No spinning fan or BMX rider or anything else is needed. Position the flash so that it gives maximum illumination evenness at, say, 1/125, and then repeat at higher shutter speeds like 1/1000, 1/2000 and up.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hi Rob, and welcome to TP

Thanks for your contribution here, but mostly I'd like to thank you for all you have done on www.robgalbraith.com when the site was running with your full attention.

In particular, your testing of the Pocket Wizard Mini/Flex system has been wonderfully helpful, not to mention the Canon 1D3 AF issues. I believe that Canon's AF system, on the 1DX and 5D3, now has the measure of Nikon. And for that, thousands of photographers are in your debt.

Good luck with the 'proper' new job

 

[Garry Edwards]

Rob,

Thanks for your input. I think it's a few years since we last 'spoke' on the web, it was back when I was doing the photo.net lighting forum I think. If you would like a set to test, just say so and I'll ask the boss.

I can't do a head to head with the PW because I don't have any. As you know, I'm primarily a studio photographer, I'm sure that the PW triggers are excellent but I don't need them and they aren't worth the money to me, although I'm sure they are worth every penny to some other people.

Customers though have sent me pics taken with the PW used with Canon cameras and the Safari Li-on and the results are impressive with some Canon models, less so with others.

We already have a shot of a white wall taken by someone else (it may be cream, not sure) here and I will certainly be doing some extra, more comprehensive tests myself.

Whenever I do any tests of any kind I publish the results exactly as shot, except for re-sizing, and I make the original files available to anyone who wants them so that they can see the exif data for themselves. That way, everything is 100% transparent.

Meanwhile, to make absolutely sure that nobody can possibly be misled by anything contained on the Mach 1N webpage, I have removed some of the content. The original page has been saved and can be uploaded again following the further tests.

 

[Rob Galbraith]

Thanks Richard for your kind words, I really appreciate it.

 

[Rob Galbraith]

Hi Garry,

Thanks for the reply, and thanks for the reminder that our paths crossed in years past. I hope you're well. Kudos also for taking down the Mach 1N blog post for now.

My motivation for suggesting a comparison to PocketWizard's HyperSync is simply that it would help clear up any confusion as to how the Mach 1N is doing what's it's doing. It's either doing the same thing as HyperSync, which would be very useful, or it's doing something different and better, which would be incredible. I think we'll learn that it's the former, but my mind is fully open to the idea that there is some kind of technological breakthrough taking place inside the Mach 1N.

I'd welcome an opportunity to try out a set, and I could quickly do exactly the comparison I'm proposing and report back here if there was interest. I've sent you a private message, please have a look at it when you can.

 

[nigelbb]

The situation with Nikon cameras is very different. The electronics of Nikon shutters are very complex
<SNIP>
My understanding is that the trigger communicates directly with the shutter and effects its behaviour. I found this pretty incredible but I was impressed by the demo by the engineer, and so did my own tests, both indoors and outdoors, and was even more impressed by the practical effects of what this trigger did.

If these flash triggers are so dependent on interacting with the complex electronics of the Nikon shutters how is the promised Canon version going to be produced?

 

[Garry Edwards]

There you go, real world tests.
These shots were taken whilst making a video. The video will take a while to complete, but the photos can be seen now.

As always, the photos are available in full resolution and contain the exif data.
And as always, the photos are straight out of camera

 

[tiler65]

Thanks Garry, I saw these earlier on Mike Sewell's page too.

 

[HoppyUK]

There you go, real world tests.
These shots were taken whilst making a video. The video will take a while to complete, but the photos can be seen now.

As always, the photos are available in full resolution and contain the exif data.
And as always, the photos are straight out of camera

Unfortunately Garry, they don't prove anything. Those are not the tests that I, or Rob Galbraith asked to see. There is no disputing the Machs work, only how they work, and how that is different and better than other triggers or DIY tail-sync methods.

From your link above "...some people are cynical and assume that the Mach 1N is no better than the &#8216;tail end synch&#8217; triggers that are already available for Canon cameras. So we thought it would be a good idea to prove that they work with hotshoe flashes too." So where are the comparisons with other triggers? Pocket Wizards, Pixel Kings, Yongnuo 622. Nobody has doubted that the Machs work with hot-shoe guns.

 

[Richard King]

Well they did show what we already thought... they needed to use three speedlights to illuminate one person at close range.. which is interesting, as I can use a single SB800, to illuminate a bride at the other end of a aisle in a church

I know we are not comparing apples with apples here, but essentially, if we go down the fast shutter speed route, then eventually, the flash duration is greater than the shutter speed, the entire outputted power of the flash is progressivly not utilised.

It would be interesting to see these flash triggers sync with a quick, powerful flash head like the alien bees B400 on full power with the camera on 1/2000s compared to say the camera set on 1/90th sec and 1/8000th sec.

I would guess the shot at 1/90th will be more illuminated by the flash than the shot at 1/2000th and the shot at 1/8000th will be dark and showing signs of un-even illumination

Could these hotshoe flash shots have been produced without the Mach 1N triggers? Yes, but only in the dark. The flashes could have been set to very low power, to produce extremely short flash durations, and this would have worked if the camera ISO had been set to a very high level, but the shots would have had to be taken in the dark to prevent blur from the daylight captured during the normal shutter speed of 1/250th second. Come to that, hotshoe flashes could have been used at 1/8000th in FP mode, but the power would have been far too low.

This copy is saying you can fit a pint in a quart pot. You cant get out more than you put in. The flash gun fires, the shutter opens, the light is recorded on the sensor.

Or put another way, my SB800 outputs a maximum of 61 joules of energy at full power, and this energy is released in 1/1050th of a second. lets round that to 1/1000th

Looking here http://petetek.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/high-speed-sync-output-tests_01.html I can see that the power is clipped, and the power id fairly even for the duration of the flash

So if The shutter were open for about 1/1000th second, and we managed to time the flash perfectly, I would expect to utilise about 61 joules

If the shutter were open for 1/2000th second, and we managed to time the flash perfectly, I would expect to utilise about 30 joules

If the shutter were open for 1/4000th second, I would expect to utilise about 15 joules and 7.5 if the shutter was open for 1/8000th second.

Throwing away this much power is not what photographers want to do, which is why, if the triggers can map their timings to a reasonably powered fast flash head, they will be remarkable.

Of course, this is all assuming perfect timing. As demonstrated by my numbers, even a small variation in timing will drastically reduce the amount of utilised power

The thing is, all flash triggers will let you fire a flash head off at any shutter speed you want... the devil is in the results.. and the results need to be that you can match the opening of the shutter with the duration of the flash, or accept a loss in power, or have the shutter interfering with the shot

Now lets think about shutters. My old D70 has an electronic shutter, and happily syncs at 1/500th second (and some), however, think about what happens with a rear/front curtain type shutter. the fastest I have seen on a DSLR is "both curtains fully open" at about 1/300th sec, beyond that, you start seeing shadowing on one edge of the image.

See: http://www.scantips.com/lights/flashbasics2b.html

 

[ding76uk]

I have to say the way these are being shown leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Without giving any concrete proof to the contrary you are almost dismissing anything negative said about them. This may be that you know something we, and the world in general don't right now, but the proof that this is the case doesn;t seem to be forthcoming.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Well they did show what we already thought... they needed to use three speedlights to illuminate one person at close range.. which is interesting, as I can use a single SB800, to illuminate a bride at the other end of a aisle in a church

Of course you can. You can do it with a candle, as long as you stick a parabolic reflector behind it and use a very high ISO. Hotshoe flashguns gain their artificially high guide numbers from testing them at maximum zoom settings.With the photos in the blog, the zoom was set wide, to cover the subject fully. This eats effective power.

It would be interesting to see these flash triggers sync with a quick, powerful flash head like the alien bees B400 on full power with the camera on 1/2000s compared to say the camera set on 1/90th sec and 1/8000th sec.

Quick and powerful? That's a strange example, the B400 has only 160Ws of power

Or put another way, my SB800 outputs a maximum of 61 joules of energy at full power, and this energy is released in 1/1050th of a second. lets round that to 1/1000th

Looking here http://petetek.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/high-speed-sync-output-tests_01.html I can see that the power is clipped, and the power id fairly even for the duration of the flash

So if The shutter were open for about 1/1000th second, and we managed to time the flash perfectly, I would expect to utilise about 61 joules

If the shutter were open for 1/2000th second, and we managed to time the flash perfectly, I would expect to utilise about 30 joules

If the shutter were open for 1/4000th second, I would expect to utilise about 15 joules and 7.5 if the shutter was open for 1/8000th second.

Throwing away this much power is not what photographers want to do, which is why, if the triggers can map their timings to a reasonably powered fast flash head, they will be remarkable.

Where do you get 61j from?
Anyway, it's irrelevant. That link is talking about a Nikon flashgun being used in auto-fp High Speed Sync, that isn't what we are using.
You're right about one thing though, throwing away this much power is not what photographers want to do - and most of the time, there is no need to. Often, increasing the shutter speed by 1 or 2 stops will be enough. On these demo shots, we increased the shutter speed by 5 stops, just to show what was possible. But these tests showed that even with hotshoe flashguns, increasing the shutter speed by 5 stops was still possible, even at just 320 ISO - which is well within the capability of most modern Nikon cameras

Of course, this is all assuming perfect timing. As demonstrated by my numbers, even a small variation in timing will drastically reduce the amount of utilised power [/QUOTE]I agree with that bit

(HoppyUK)So where are the comparisons with other triggers? Pocket Wizards, Pixel Kings, Yongnuo 622. Nobody has doubted that the Machs work with hot-shoe guns.

Good idea, but as I've said before, I don't have those other triggers to use for comparison purposes - and even if I did, if I was to publish the results and the Mach 1N came out top, that would look very much like knocking copy, which I would never do.

(Ding76uk)

I have to say the way these are being shown leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Without giving any concrete proof to the contrary you are almost dismissing anything negative said about them. This may be that you know something we, and the world in general don't right now, but the proof that this is the case doesn;t seem to be forthcoming.

What do you expect me to say or do? A very large number of these triggers were sent to customers yesterday and today. If they aren't happy with them then they will return them for refund, and will post on forums about them. With the internet, there are no secrets, or at least secrets don't last for long. If just a single figure percentage of customers are unhappy with them, it will be all over the internet by tomorrow. Nothing that I say will make a scrap of difference...

But if you feel that what I'm saying is leaving a nasty taste in your mouth then the answer is simple. Don't buy them.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Deleted, made a mess of the formatting

 

[ding76uk]

(Ding76uk) What do you expect me to say or do? A very large number of these triggers were sent to customers yesterday and today. If they aren't happy with them then they will return them for refund, and will post on forums about them. With the internet, there are no secrets, or at least secrets don't last for long. If just a single figure percentage of customers are unhappy with them, it will be all over the internet by tomorrow. Nothing that I say will make a scrap of difference...

But if you feel that what I'm saying is leaving a nasty taste in your mouth then the answer is simple. Don't buy them.

I don't expect anything. But when they have been tested against TT1 et al then I may be converted, but the issue remains basic tests (which are easily done) are not being shown, instead a photo which will wow people and a promise is all that is being delivered. I understand why of course. But you could easily silence the critics with a very basic series of tests that would have take a lot less time that a man hitting grapefruits and been a lot more useful in proving Lencarta's point that this is not tail sync. All we get instead has called cynics for not "Believing" in something that is not been proven in any serious tests.

As I said I may end up eating my hat, but for the moment my judgement is very much reserved.

 

[HoppyUK]

Well they did show what we already thought... they needed to use three speedlights to illuminate one person at close range.. which is interesting, as I can use a single SB800, to illuminate a bride at the other end of a aisle in a church

I know we are not comparing apples with apples here, but essentially, if we go down the fast shutter speed route, then eventually, the flash duration is greater than the shutter speed, the entire outputted power of the flash is progressivly not utilised.

It would be interesting to see these flash triggers sync with a quick, powerful flash head like the alien bees B400 on full power with the camera on 1/2000s compared to say the camera set on 1/90th sec and 1/8000th sec.

I would guess the shot at 1/90th will be more illuminated by the flash than the shot at 1/2000th and the shot at 1/8000th will be dark and showing signs of un-even illumination



This copy is saying you can fit a pint in a quart pot. You cant get out more than you put in. The flash gun fires, the shutter opens, the light is recorded on the sensor.

Or put another way, my SB800 outputs a maximum of 61 joules of energy at full power, and this energy is released in 1/1050th of a second. lets round that to 1/1000th

Looking here http://petetek.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/high-speed-sync-output-tests_01.html I can see that the power is clipped, and the power id fairly even for the duration of the flash

So if The shutter were open for about 1/1000th second, and we managed to time the flash perfectly, I would expect to utilise about 61 joules

If the shutter were open for 1/2000th second, and we managed to time the flash perfectly, I would expect to utilise about 30 joules

If the shutter were open for 1/4000th second, I would expect to utilise about 15 joules and 7.5 if the shutter was open for 1/8000th second.

Throwing away this much power is not what photographers want to do, which is why, if the triggers can map their timings to a reasonably powered fast flash head, they will be remarkable.

Of course, this is all assuming perfect timing. As demonstrated by my numbers, even a small variation in timing will drastically reduce the amount of utilised power

The thing is, all flash triggers will let you fire a flash head off at any shutter speed you want... the devil is in the results.. and the results need to be that you can match the opening of the shutter with the duration of the flash, or accept a loss in power, or have the shutter interfering with the shot

Now lets think about shutters. My old D70 has an electronic shutter, and happily syncs at 1/500th second (and some), however, think about what happens with a rear/front curtain type shutter. the fastest I have seen on a DSLR is "both curtains fully open" at about 1/300th sec, beyond that, you start seeing shadowing on one edge of the image.

See: http://www.scantips.com/lights/flashbasics2b.html

That doesn't read quite right to me. These oscilloscope traces http://eosdoc.com/manuals/notes/discharge/ show an IGBT-type hot shoe gun, both at full power (when behaves similar to a conventional studio head) and at and lower power settings, when the tail is chopped off. HSS mode is also there, and quite interesting and relevant.

When you overlay what's happening there, with the scanning of the focal plane shutter that still takes around 4ms (1/250sec) to complete its cycle even at 1/8000sec shutter speed, it explains how flash sync works, what is possible, and what is not.

 

[ShawWellPete]

I just saw the ad for these in Advanced Photographer, googled Mach 1N and found this thread. I must admit I was blown away by the advert. I use Lencarta Li-on and some of their mains powered studio flashes as well as a couple of SB-600s and an SB900.

Form what the add says I could use these triggers and shoot at incredible shutter speeds. Reading through this thread it seems there will be a cost to that with reduced power.

Last week I was shooting in the afternoon with the li-on, and in order to get the sky how I wanted it, I needed F16 at ISO 100 and 1/250. At this aperture on the D800 I'm going to lose sharpness through diffraction.

Presumably, these triggers would have allowed me to shoot at F8 at 1/500? I'm guessing the li-on would have enough power to light the model, fairly close, through a softbox at f8?
If so that's £200 well spent.

Also could you use this to shoot at wider apertures with studio lights, without having to resort to ND filters on the camera? sometimes the reduced power is an advantage

 

[tiler65]

Also could you use this to shoot at wider apertures with studio lights, without having to resort to ND filters on the camera? sometimes the reduced power is an advantage

Apparently so, there should be some more test results posted in here in the next couple of days...some folk I know have ordered some and hopefully they will arrive soon so they can start testing.

 

[ShawWellPete]

Apparently so, there should be some more test results posted in here in the next couple of days...some folk I know have ordered some and hopefully they will arrive soon so they can start testing.

Good stuff, this could be very interesting.

 

[TG.]

Do these have ITTL modes for speedlights ?

On another note @ Lencarta, i have to say all this tech talk is quite beyond me when it comes to flash/Triggers/Lighting etc so i have no authority to debate the subject, however what did occur to me was, wouldn't it just be a lot easier to just do the tests that Hoppy and others have requested, against other triggers like PWs and the other high end market ones, i know you have mentioned you don't have them to test against, however considering you at Lencarta, have presumably made a big investment in these, and no doubt are hoping for a very good return with your claims on what they can do, why not just go out and buy some of these other triggers to test against your own ? i'm sure a company like Lencarta can afford to do that, once the test is done, you could just sell the others on here, with minimal loss, surely that would then hopefully prove your test results as conclusive, which then would put you in a win win situation. Just my thoughts on it

 

[Garry Edwards]

Do these have ITTL modes for speedlights ?

On another note @ Lencarta, i have to say all this tech talk is quite beyond me when it comes to flash/Triggers/Lighting etc so i have no authority to debate the subject, however what did occur to me was, wouldn't it just be a lot easier to just do the tests that Hoppy and others have requested, against other triggers like PWs and the other high end market ones, i know you have mentioned you don't have them to test against, however considering you at Lencarta, have presumably made a big investment in these, and no doubt are hoping for a very good return with your claims on what they can do, why not just go out and buy some of these other triggers to test against your own ? i'm sure a company like Lencarta can afford to do that, once the test is done, you could just sell the others on here, with minimal loss, surely that would then hopefully prove your test results as conclusive, which then would put you in a win win situation. Just my thoughts on it

Yes, it would be a very good idea to test our triggers against others, even though, having tested them, the information would have to be used very 'gently' to avoid accusations of knocking the competition.

But what really matters is real world tests from actual customers, a lot of people have bought them and I expect feedback from them on forums very soon. So far, the only published results are from Michael Sewell and myself. People are perhaps a bit cynical about what I say, which I understand. Michael bought (was not given) his triggers but he has a role in Lencarta so some people are likely to think that he is biased, and it will take comments from people who have no association with Lencarta to build (or otherwise) confidence in this product.

Also, I have extremely limited time. Apart from the fact that I'm busy, as some people know, a member of my family has some pretty serious problems at the moment, he deserves my help and time and I am prioritising my time because of this.

I will talk to the boss about buying triggers when he returns from a business trip, I don't have authority to spend his money and I'm not going to spend my own.

 

[TG.]

I'm not going to spend my own.

Well i don't blame you for that, neither would i, lol.

Do they have ITTL modes ?

 

[HoppyUK]

FWIW, I think Lencarta has in fact got something worthwhile here, though it is a long way from what is being claimed.

There is no doubt that what were're discussing is tail-sync (and that is just as evident from the latest set of tests as it was with the first ones) which has previously been less than an ideal solution to high shutter speeds because of both the big loss of effective power and the fall-off in exposure down the frame as the tail fades in brightness.

However, if you start with a lot more power in the first place, and use a flash with a long duration and therefore a big long tail of light to exploit, then the loss of power may still leave enough to work with, and the more gradual fading down the long tail will minimise fall-off.

Those flash output characteristics are exactly what Lencarta has got with its excellent Safari Li-on battery flash system, that has been used for most of the published tests. It has 600Ws, roughly six times the light of a hot-shoe gun, and the flash duration is one of the longest I have tested. The result is that when used with the Mach triggers, you get a worthwhile and usable option when previously there wasn't one. It should work as well with other heads with similar characteristics, and there are a few of those around (though probably not including hot-shoe guns).

If Lencarta was to tone down its claims, be open about how it works, the limitations as well as the opportunities, then all the fuss would die down. Those customers that can make good use of the Mach triggers would be very happy, and those that had been expecting miracles would not be disappointed.

 

[Michael Sewell]

Well i don't blame you for that, neither would i, lol.

Do they have ITTL modes ?

No, they're manual all the way. (and so say all of us )

 

[Garry Edwards]

FWIW, I think Lencarta has in fact got something worthwhile here, though it is a long way from what is being claimed.

There is no doubt that what were're discussing is tail-sync (and that is just as evident from the latest set of tests as it was with the first ones) which has previously been less than an ideal solution to high shutter speeds because of both the big loss of effective power and the fall-off in exposure down the frame as the tail fades in brightness.

However, if you start with a lot more power in the first place, and use a flash with a long duration and therefore a big long tail of light to exploit, then the loss of power may still leave enough to work with, and the more gradual fading down the long tail will minimise fall-off.

Those flash output characteristics are exactly what Lencarta has got with its excellent Safari Li-on battery flash system, that has been used for most of the published tests. It has 600Ws, roughly six times the light of a hot-shoe gun, and the flash duration is one of the longest I have tested. The result is that when used with the Mach triggers, you get a worthwhile and usable option when previously there wasn't one. It should work as well with other heads with similar characteristics, and there are a few of those around (though probably not including hot-shoe guns).

If Lencarta was to tone down its claims, be open about how it works, the limitations as well as the opportunities, then all the fuss would die down. Those customers that can make good use of the Mach triggers would be very happy, and those that had been expecting miracles would not be disappointed.

Richard has kindly agreed to run his own, comprehensive tests using a D700. He will test it with as many different flashes as he can, and will compare it to other radio triggers that he has/can get.

For anyone who doesn't know, Richard has been around for almost as long as I have and is currently a technical writer for Advanced Photographer and carries out a lot of their product tests and reviews. He and I don't always agree on everything, but I trust both his integrity and his capability, so his tests should answer the various questions and concerns that some people have.

He will have them tomorrow, I expect that it will take a few days for him to carry out the tests.

 

[Cris_L]

Are they in stock for dispatch yet? Looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts.

 

[The23rdman]

Richard has kindly agreed to run his own, comprehensive tests using a D700. He will test it with as many different flashes as he can, and will compare it to other radio triggers that he has/can get.

For anyone who doesn't know, Richard has been around for almost as long as I have and is currently a technical writer for Advanced Photographer and carries out a lot of their product tests and reviews. He and I don't always agree on everything, but I trust both his integrity and his capability, so his tests should answer the various questions and concerns that some people have.

He will have them tomorrow, I expect that it will take a few days for him to carry out the tests.

This will be interesting. Still watching this space.

 

[alsos]

A very large number of these triggers were sent to customers yesterday and today. If they aren't happy with them then they will return them for refund, and will post on forums about them. With the internet, there are no secrets, or at least secrets don't last for long. If just a single figure percentage of customers are unhappy with them, it will be all over the internet by tomorrow. Nothing that I say will make a scrap of difference...

Are they in stock for dispatch yet? Looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts.

Appears the first batch were sent out a week ago we are all waiting with baited breath!

Garry
Any development with Canon versions?

 

[Garry Edwards]

There's no news on the Canon versions, I'm not expecting them any time soon.

As far as feedback is concerned, there have been quite a few emails and phone calls, and people have sent me example photos they've taken, but AFAIK nobody has actually published anything yet. It's just human nature, if people are happy they usually keep quiet, if they are unhappy they normally don't.

 

[Jerm]

I've had mine for over a week, and still not had the time to put batteries in them...

 

[Garry Edwards]

I've had mine for over a week, and still not had the time to put batteries in them...

From what I hear, you've had plenty of time...
You could have done it in the 4 hours you spent in A&E after losing a fight with your dog