Legislation for gay marriage

Personally yes I believe they are.

So how have they got it wrong for so long..even the isolated tribes that have little connection with the western world do not have a gay ceremony.....why is ours right?

I respect your view but some explanation on how they have it wrong would be nice. After all, we all need to learn.
 
So how have they got it wrong for so long..even the isolated tribes that have little connection with the western world do not have a gay ceremony.....why is ours right?

I respect your view but some explanation on how they have it wrong would be nice. After all, we all need to learn.

Slavery was also going on for a long time but I'm sure you'll agree that they got that wrong.
 
So how have they got it wrong for so long..even the isolated tribes that have little connection with the western world do not have a gay ceremony.....why is ours right?

I respect your view but some explanation on how they have it wrong would be nice. After all, we all need to learn.

Ok I will explain, as I understand it, until Christianity became prevalent in ancient Greece and with the Romans there were gay marriages but the church banned them.
 
Slavery was also going on for a long time but I'm sure you'll agree that they got that wrong.

So was kids being used as chimney sweeps.............

I am asking for the reason the other cultures do not allow gay marriage ( or in some cases, even ever heard of it!)
 
Ok I will explain, as I understand it, until Christianity became prevalent in ancient Greece and with the Romans there were gay marriages but the church banned them.

But why?
 
So was kids being used as chimney sweeps.............

I am asking for the reason the other cultures do not allow gay marriage ( or in some cases, even ever heard of it!)

Can you go back and answer my previous question?
 
Nero married a man well two actually.
 
So how have they got it wrong for so long..even the isolated tribes that have little connection with the western world do not have a gay ceremony.....why is ours right?

I respect your view but some explanation on how they have it wrong would be nice. After all, we all need to learn.

This is an interesting read - History of same-sex unions. It seems that same-sex unions have a long history across many cultures and like most things, there is no simple "right" or "wrong".
 
Nero also recited 'the fall of ilium' while rome burned , because basically he was bonkers (too much lead in the water will do that for you) - I agree with you on gay marriage but i'm not sure the roman emporers are a good role model.
 
So was kids being used as chimney sweeps.............

I am asking for the reason the other cultures do not allow gay marriage ( or in some cases, even ever heard of it!)

which other cultures ?
 
Nero also recited 'the fall of ilium' while rome burned , because basically he was bonkers (too much lead in the water will do that for you) - I agree with you on gay marriage but i'm not sure the roman emporers are a good role model.

Very true just proving a point that gay marriage isn't a new idea as some people seem to think.
 
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This is an interesting read - History of same-sex unions. It seems that same-sex unions have a long history across many cultures and like most things, there is no simple "right" or "wrong".

If you read that through.......it says unions a lot but not actual marriage........and Nero did it because he was the boss.

I am not disputing that there have been homosexual unions...I am questioning marriage. There is a difference.
 
Is there? Even church ceremonies refer to a marriage as a union. What is the difference?

Right...Nothing but semantics.
 
I couldn't care less what any religion, or any other engine of moral construct, thinks about same sex marriage.

People have every right to form their own morality, and that's up to them. But morality is like opinion. I'm interested to hear it but am in no way obliged to agree with it.

What matters for me is secular law. Do people who wish to formalise a relationship have equal rights in law?

Religion is irrelevant. To give religion relevance is to give it power. I refuse to allow religion to have any power over me.

Of course many people, through their upbringing or belief system, do happily give themselves to religion in some form or other, and that's fine.

I believe it incumbent upon religion to adapt and evolve to meet the needs of society, not the other way round.

And so on, blah blah...........
 
I presume you mean the church.

For me I would say for control, in my opinion most religion's want to control their follows so it is " our way or the highway."
 
I couldn't care less what any religion, or any other engine of moral construct, thinks about same sex marriage.

People have every right to form their own morality, and that's up to them. But morality is like opinion. I'm interested to hear it but am in no way obliged to agree with it.

What matters for me is secular law. Do people who wish to formalise a relationship have equal rights in law?

Religion is irrelevant. To give religion relevance is to give it power. I refuse to allow religion to have any power over me.

Of course many people, through their upbringing or belief system, do happily give themselves to religion in some form or other, and that's fine.

I believe it incumbent upon religion to adapt and evolve to meet the needs of society, not the other way round.

And so on, blah blah...........

I said that earlier.
 
I presume you mean the church.

For me I would say for control, in my opinion most religion's want to control their follows so it is " our way or the highway."

Only Most???
 
Would you say in that case that people are entitled to be racist, sexist, or anti Semitic?

They can be whatever they want, who am I to judge?

All I can do is express my opinion on them the same way they express theirs on me.
 
Only Most???

zen budhism isnt really a controlling religion - they don't even have a god head per se - its more of a philosophy of life.

I don't know how budhists feel about gay mariage, but they are fairly liberal on many other facets of life ( a swift google tells us that some buddhist sects are fine with homosexuality and others including the current dalai lama feel that it violates the third tenet of buddhism)

Incidentally hinduism is fine with homosexuality and the marriage of homosexuals (notably this isnt the case in legal terms in india - but thats down to a hangover of british colonial laws ( Homosexuality was illegal in india until 2009) but thats a cultural not religious prohibition. Hinduism considers homosexuals to be a third sex.
 
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zen budhism isnt really a controlling religion - they don't even have a god head per se - its more of a philosophy of life.

I don't know how budhists feel about gay mariage, but they are fairly liberal on many other facets og life

On this we shall have to agree to disagree. Any person following a religion is, in my opinion, under some degree of control. But this is, as I say, purely my individual opinion.
 
zen budhism isnt really a controlling religion - they don't even have a god head per se - its more of a philosophy of life.

I don't know how budhists feel about gay mariage, but they are fairly liberal on many other facets of life ( a swift google tells us that some buddhist sects are fine with homosexuality and others including the current dalai lama feel that it violates the third tenet of buddhism)

So we should stone the Dalai Lama then?
 
So we should stone the Dalai Lama then?

if you want, though i don't recall saying that :shrug: as i said earlier his moral compass is for him to decide.
 
tiler65 said:
So we should stone the Dalai Lama then?

Only if he asks very nicely.


Did a few people miss the hint about Politics and Religion from nice Mr Cobra?
 
Tom

Do you think playing devil's advocate, while there is a place for that, and creating differences and arguments where none actually exist or making tenuous jumps of logic to create further tension, really help?

Or are you just having a bit of fun at the expense of reasonable discussion.

I'm not bothered which; I'm just interested.
 
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Only if he asks very nicely.


Did a few people miss the hint about Politics and Religion from nice Mr Cobra?

We are not messing with either.....we are digressing on the merits of a very social topic. And if I may add, quite well!
 
Did a few people miss the hint about Politics and Religion from nice Mr Cobra?

That was a few pages back Mark, so just in case I'll re-iterate ;)



This was discussed in the staff room recently,
and it was decided that some lee-way would be given, providing that
these sorts of threads don't kick off into an almighty row
regarding Catholics v Protestants (other religions are available ;))

Or Red v Blue v Orange, (again other parties are available ;))

 
Tom

Does playing devil's advocate, while there is a place for that, and creating differences and arguments where none actually exist or making tenuous jumps of logic to create further tension, really help?

Or are you just having a bit of fun at the expense of reasonable discussion.

I'm not bothered which; I'm just interested.

What tension?

Do you think that the great philosophers only gained knowledge by reading the oracle? It is all about balance, create an environment where you can question morals and decisions on life without fear of retribution. Unfortunately, some folk think that is called **** stirring.
 
I've just been reading through all the posts on the thread, and there's some interesting reading here, with some very interesting viewpoints on both sides.

I'm particularly interested in the viewpoints raised about people having their own moral compass. Simply put, religion is merely there to enforce control and we have the right to choose for ourselves what is right, based on our own moral compass.

But this logic kind of breaks down at some point, doesn't it?

If everyone gets to decide what is right for them, then we ALL have to adhere to the same logic. You then can't tell someone else that they're wrong in their viewpoint...even more, you have to accept their viewpoint on the same basis you would expect them to accept yours.

But then people do some rather disturbing things in life...is this because they have their own moral compass? Would we need to accept that they are doing what is right in their own eyes, and maybe they feel they have a right to do so?

Perhaps the most thought-provoking part of asking religion to simply accept whatever the cultural norm is at any given time, is what it might look like if they did?

One other thing that I find rather curious, is that the general consensus seems to be that of tolerance. We need to start showing more tolerance and stop judging people based on their lifestyle choice. The problem I have here, however, is tolerance seems to be one-way traffic these days. I don't see much tolerance toward religion and their views (I'm not talking about the forums, I'm talking generally). Tolerance only seems to be afforded to religion if they 'get with the programme'.

Just my two cents!
 
but does he have the right to express that view at a gay wedding ? - if he feels like that why did he attend ? , is it 'right' that he should accept their hospitality then express homophobic views at the reception ?

Personally i'd say a response like i suggested give his antiqitated and predjudiced view the respect it deserves

What about if he'd been at a wedding where a white woman married a black man and he'd said

"What a shame for the parents, ending up like that"

Would that be ok?

If not then what's the difference in your opinion?

He is still entitled to his opinion.

Exactly Tom.
 
I've just been reading through all the posts on the thread, and there's some interesting reading here, with some very interesting viewpoints on both sides.

I'm particularly interested in the viewpoints raised about people having their own moral compass. Simply put, religion is merely there to enforce control and we have the right to choose for ourselves what is right, based on our own moral compass.

But this logic kind of breaks down at some point, doesn't it?

If everyone gets to decide what is right for them, then we ALL have to adhere to the same logic. You then can't tell someone else that they're wrong in their viewpoint...even more, you have to accept their viewpoint on the same basis you would expect them to accept yours.

But then people do some rather disturbing things in life...is this because they have their own moral compass? Would we need to accept that they are doing what is right in their own eyes, and maybe they feel they have a right to do so?

Perhaps the most thought-provoking part of asking religion to simply accept whatever the cultural norm is at any given time, is what it might look like if they did?

One other thing that I find rather curious, is that the general consensus seems to be that of tolerance. We need to start showing more tolerance and stop judging people based on their lifestyle choice. The problem I have here, however, is tolerance seems to be one-way traffic these days. I don't see much tolerance toward religion and their views (I'm not talking about the forums, I'm talking generally). Tolerance only seems to be afforded to religion if they 'get with the programme'.

Just my two cents!

You are right, it has to be a two way street, and again in my humble opinion the church believes that everyone should agree with them, and their way is the only way. I have members of my family where the church is very important to them and I have no issues with it, in the same way that they understand my beliefs.
I was listening to lbc radio the other day and a woman phoned in on this very subject and she was about to celebrate her golden wedding anniversary, she broke down in tears on the radio and stated that if this bill went through parliament then her marriage was a sham, now no disrespect, but how is a gay marriage going to mean her marriage is worth any less than it is now? I think that this shows how the church can control people.
 
Exactly Tom.

I agree that he can still have his opinion, I just think in the case of the old boy at the gay wedding that it
was, maybe, a little insensitive to state his opinion at the reception.
 
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