Legal / moral conundrum

[Garry Edwards]

Entirely theoretical of course....
You're driving along a single track rural road, nobody else is about.
A deer runs out, is injured beyond veterinary help and needs euthanasia.
What should you do?

You can't kill it humanely, or at least not instantly, as you don't have the means to do so with you.
You could and maybe should call the police, they will attend, they will then call the RSPCA, who will probably not have anyone available quickly, and they will then either send their own firearms unit, or call out a member of the public who helps out in these situations, or will ask the local hunt kennels for help, any of these options will be legally safe and will resolve the problem but will take a long time and meanwhile the deer needs urgent help.

You could of course go back to your own farm and come back with a gun, but having and discharging a firearm on a public highway could cause its own problems.
Or you could take the deer back to your farm, very close to the location. But the deer "belongs" to the owner of the public highway, not to you, and it would be an offence to remove it in these circumstances.

It seems to me that the correct course of action from a legal standpoint would be to call the police but the moral imperative would be to deal with it yourself in order to avoid unnecessary suffering, and to put the animal's needs before your own legal position.

 

[Nod]

Does the deer belong to the highway owner if it's still alive?

Difficult conundrum, especially since the theoretical person doesn't have the means to humanely euthanise the animal. Maybe a good hammer blow to the correct part of the skull would do the job as efficiently as a humane killer/captive bolt?

 

[Garry Edwards]

Does the deer belong to the highway owner if it's still alive?

Yes.

Maybe a good hammer blow to the correct part of the skull would do the job as efficiently as a humane killer/captive bolt?

No hammer. As an aside, a captive bolt humane killer would be a very poor choice when the animal is thrashing around.

 

[Nod]

How did the theoretical person do what needed to be done?

 

[Garry Edwards]

Well, it's hypothetical of course but I feel that the right thing to do would be to take it away and deal with it quickly and efficiently - animal needs first, legal niceties second.

 

[mj4456]

A few years ago I came across a deer in the road obviously injured and having trouble with one or both back legs, I was 1/2 mile ish from the next village so popped into the local police station and reported it, I passed by 20 minutes later and a policevan was sitting across one side of the road covering the animal as it lay at the roadside, I met the plod a couple of days later in the local shop, he told me the vet had been along just after and put the animal down. Didn’t know what else to do but didn’t want the poor beast to suffer.

 

[mikew]

Theoretically, how did it taste

 

[Garry Edwards]

Theoretically, how did it taste

It would be inedible. The adrenaline released due to the pain and stress would taint the meat.

 

[simon ess]

Without the means, knowledge or skill to despatch it, there is no conundrum for me. Phone the police for them to do what needs to be done. I can do nothing else. There is no choice.

If I had a farm and a gun and knew what I was doing I would either take the deer to the gun or go fetch the gun depending on factors such as weight of deer, size of car and so on. The legalities would not concern me till later. The animal's needs would, for me, be paramount.

 

[scott199]

Is there I theoretical 3rd choice and do what almost everyone does in this day and age ??

Look the other way and pretend they didn’t see it, so it’s someone else’s problem ?

 

[sk66]

If the animal is thrashing around in a panicked state there is nothing that can be done that will be kind/humane... even just getting it into your truck and transporting it could easily make things much worse in the interim.
If I had the means, I would do whatever I could to shorten it's death... even if it wasn't quite quick/painless. And I would probably do it whether it was technically legal or not... as long as my wife wasn't with me, otherwise we would probably be driving an hour to a wildlife rehabber so it could die there (done that).

It's a little odd though; mother nature is a bitch and natural death is seldom quick/painless/humane... it's often quite the opposite, especially for wildlife. I don't think there's really a moral imperative to change that, especially since the death wasn't a choice.

 

[simon ess]

Yes.

You try to do what you reasonably can.

You then try to feel good about what good you managed to do and not too terrible about what you couldn't do.

People who pretend they didn't see it and drive on are, in my experience, very much in the minority and utter c***s.

 

[munch]

Yes.

You try to do what you reasonably can.

You then try to feel good about what good you managed to do and not too terrible about what you couldn't do.

People who pretend they didn't see it and drive on are, in my experience, very much in the minority and utter c***s.

Rather harsh many people wouldn't stop for lots of reasons doesn't make them utter C.

 

[KIPAX]

I read the question and given the options we are offered I am left surprised at how many farmers we have in the forums

 

[simon ess]

Rather harsh many people wouldn't stop for lots of reasons doesn't make them utter C.

This is the qualifying bit.

People who pretend they didn't see it

 

[Garry Edwards]

Is there I theoretical 3rd choice and do what almost everyone does in this day and age ??

Look the other way and pretend they didn’t see it, so it’s someone else’s problem ?

That isn't an option that I could ever consider.
Calling the police and letting them deal with it is the only option that many people are likely to have, not ideal because of the long delays but probably a fair discharge of the moral duty, because using a hammer or a knife (even if available) would be hard for most people to do - been there done that in the past, we used to occasionally find deer on our land that had been hunted by the low life that do it with lurchers and leave them wounded, but not an easy option - very up close and personal.

 

[Uneducated_Rick]

My friend used to a be a farm/large vet and got called semi-regularly to assess deer, because of this she carried a syringe of pentabarb in her car (in locked case etc.)

If she was at home when she was called she'd also take her gun; depending where the animal was hurt she'd use the pentobarb and dispose of the body, or use the gun and hang the meat in the barn for a few weeks and have loads of venison

 

[Gremlin]

Round here, any deer that get knocked over disappear quite quickly
You have to wonder whether the people that put them in their cars have any idea what to do with the carcass once they get home

 

[Major Eazy]

Entirely theoretical of course....
You're driving along a single track rural road, nobody else is about.
A deer runs out, is injured beyond veterinary help and needs euthanasia.
What should you do?

You can't kill it humanely, or at least not instantly, as you don't have the means to do so with you.
You could and maybe should call the police, they will attend, they will then call the RSPCA, who will probably not have anyone available quickly, and they will then either send their own firearms unit, or call out a member of the public who helps out in these situations, or will ask the local hunt kennels for help, any of these options will be legally safe and will resolve the problem but will take a long time and meanwhile the deer needs urgent help.

You could of course go back to your own farm and come back with a gun, but having and discharging a firearm on a public highway could cause its own problems.
Or you could take the deer back to your farm, very close to the location. But the deer "belongs" to the owner of the public highway, not to you, and it would be an offence to remove it in these circumstances.

It seems to me that the correct course of action from a legal standpoint would be to call the police but the moral imperative would be to deal with it yourself in order to avoid unnecessary suffering, and to put the animal's needs before your own legal position.

Wouldn't it be easier to call the police anyway because if you do it yourself, the gunshot could be heard by someone else, people hiking, camping, or even a photographer and a model outdoors in the woods, etc., who would then report to the police, who in turn would end up wasting time investigating.

If someone phoned the police, claiming they heard a gunshot, who knows, the police could say "Oh that, don't worry about it, we know about it."

 

[Gremlin]

If someone phoned the police, claiming they heard a gunshot, who knows, the police could say "Oh that, don't worry about it, we know about it."

If it's anything like the rural area I used to live, in gunshots are a regular occurance, part of the way of life so no one takes a lot of notice
unless it sounds lie it's come from a very near house

 

[Garry Edwards]

My friend used to a be a farm/large vet and got called semi-regularly to assess deer, because of this she carried a syringe of pentabarb in her car (in locked case etc.)

If she was at home when she was called she'd also take her gun; depending where the animal was hurt she'd use the pentobarb and dispose of the body, or use the gun and hang the meat in the barn for a few weeks and have loads of venison

Sounds unlikely to me, my understanding is that the meat would be inedible because of the tainting caused by the flow of adrenaline resulting from the pain and stress. In any event, the animal would need to be bled and gutted immediately after death, not a roadside job.

Wouldn't it be easier to call the police anyway because if you do it yourself, the gunshot could be heard by someone else, people hiking, camping, or even a photographer and a model outdoors in the woods, etc., who would then report to the police, who in turn would end up wasting time investigating.

If someone phoned the police, claiming they heard a gunshot, who knows, the police could say "Oh that, don't worry about it, we know about it."

Fair point, if it was possible to speak to an experienced officer. Problem is, the call would be answered by their control centre and, quite reasonably they would want the police to be in attendance and this would cause a delay, which comes back to the legal / moral conundrum question.

If it's anything like the rural area I used to live, in gunshots are a regular occurance, part of the way of life so no one takes a lot of notice
unless it sounds lie it's come from a very near house

Agreed, gunshots (nearly always shotguns) are just a normal background noise. There's an annoying t*** shooting on neighbouring land pretty much all day every day.

 

[Major Eazy]

If it's anything like the rural area I used to live, in gunshots are a regular occurance, part of the way of life so no one takes a lot of notice
unless it sounds lie it's come from a very near house

Well, just a thought. I assume there could be someone from the city having a go, going on holiday in the countryside, and not familiar with gunshots being part of the countryside life.

 

[neil_g]

They're not owned by anyone (?) so Police or Forestry England should be called for Deer according to New Forest NPA. They should have processes right off the bat at the call center in contacting vets etc.

https://www.newforestnpa.gov.uk/app/uploads/2018/07/2018-animal-accident-hotline-cards.pdf

But otherwise depends on the exact situation at the time.

 

[Major Eazy]

Fair point, if it was possible to speak to an experienced officer. Problem is, the call would be answered by their control centre and, quite reasonably they would want the police to be in attendance and this would cause a delay, which comes back to the legal / moral conundrum question.

I thought a farmer like you would most likely to know the local bobby? I assume farmers may have a direct contact with a police officer, or a direct number to the police station, after all, there's always someone wadding onto private property, thief of farm equipment, missing hiker, snowstorm (thus the local police would like to be in contact with you because you have a Land Rover and a tractor so could offer help to recuse stranded cars), and so on?

So I assume you could always phone direct to an experienced officer, maybe by calling the police station's desk sergeant, or even phone your solicitor for advice? Rather than to call 111 or 999 which would be via call centre?

 

[Donnie]

If I had access to firearms Id simply shoot it there and then and put it out of its misery assuming im alone and no witnesses. Simple.

Not quite the same but had a cat run out on me some years ago in a similar situation and was injured beyond vetinary help, had no choice and euthanaised it right there and then at the side of the road, the thought of leaving it to die suffering was worse than having to do the right thing.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I thought a farmer like you would most likely to know the local bobby? I assume farmers may have a direct contact with a police officer, or a direct number to the police station, after all, there's always someone wadding onto private property, thief of farm equipment, missing hiker, snowstorm (thus the local police would like to be in contact with you because you have a Land Rover and a tractor so could offer help to recuse stranded cars), and so on?

So I assume you could always phone direct to an experienced officer, maybe by calling the police station's desk sergeant, or even phone your solicitor for advice? Rather than to call 111 or 999 which would be via call centre?

The police do often ask farmers for help, which is always gladly given, but it's a one-way street. There is no local bobby and the nearest police station is in a town nearly 10 miles away. Even emergency calls from the nearest village 4 1/2 miles closer than us have a typical response time of 20 minutes, nobody seems to have police contacts any more, it's just a sign of the times and a consequence of lack of funding.

In a way, maybe not a bad thing because everyone should be treated equally and that doesn't always happen when people develop relationships.

 

[rick448]

We had a deer that got caught up in a fence when trying to get onto our airfield, it was badly injured and clearly suffering. We tried to contact the land owner, but couldn't get hold of him, we then called the RSPCA to ask what we should / could do. They told us that as we have licences that allow us to manage wildlife (mostly birds, but includes things like deer, foxes etc) we could shoot the animal to put it out of its misery. This is what we did, I have no idea on the strict legality of that when it was partially on someone else land, as well as ours, but morally I was comfortable we did the right thing, as I am sure the person on the the Clapham omnibus would likely agree, although with some of the decisions and opinions I see nowadays I could be on dodgy ground!

 

[Major Eazy]

The police do often ask farmers for help, which is always gladly given, but it's a one-way street. There is no local bobby and the nearest police station is in a town nearly 10 miles away. Even emergency calls from the nearest village 4 1/2 miles closer than us have a typical response time of 20 minutes, nobody seems to have police contacts any more, it's just a sign of the times and a consequence of lack of funding.

In a way, maybe not a bad thing because everyone should be treated equally and that doesn't always happen when people develop relationships.

Oh I see.

Well, you started your original posting by saying that it is Entirely theoretical of course.... So it imply it had not happened yet, but you're worried about what if it could happen. Surely it would be helpful to ask a solicitor, RSPCA, the local MP, and the police, in writing rather than by phone call, so whatever replies they send to you in writing, if their replies are the answer you are looking for, you could always keep those replies safe, file them away neatly. Should you be forced to take action you feel was best option, and get questioned for it, you can always show the paperwork in defence.

And say "I did my homework. I knew what I was doing and did the right thing to do. Got a problem with it, ask them!"

I hope you find the answers before it happens for real.

I once was out very late at night, driving along a B-class road, and saw a deer ran out in front of me. But I braked quickly and stopped before hitting the deer.

 

[Jannyfox]

Leaving aside the issue of whether it really is humane to try to shoot an injured possibly thrashing deer with anything less than a rifle, if this is something that really concerns you I would suggest seeking guidance from BASC rather than the RSPCA. They will be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[Gremlin]

They're not owned by anyone (?) so Police or Forestry England should be called for Deer according to New Forest NPA

That doesn't surprise, I suppose legally the "owner" could be claimed against for damage to vehicle etc
but then you can't fpr cats so perhaps not

I remember a few years back hearing a screech of brakes and a loud bang, I was out with the camera at the time,
a car came speeding past a couple of minutes later followed by a few more brake squeals.
Yes the first car had hit and killed deer and left it lying on the road on an almost blind bend.
I flagged down a van driver to slow the traffif for me and dragged it into the side of the road and cleared the broken antlers, why couldn't the first guy do that.
Walking home I saw a black golf parked up with most of the from bumper hanging off, the driver was desparately trying to remove it !!

 

[neil_g]

That doesn't surprise, I suppose legally the "owner" could be claimed against for damage to vehicle etc
but then you can't fpr cats so perhaps not

I remember a few years back hearing a screech of brakes and a loud bang, I was out with the camera at the time,
a car came speeding past a couple of minutes later followed by a few more brake squeals.
Yes the first car had hit and killed deer and left it lying on the road on an almost blind bend.
I flagged down a van driver to slow the traffif for me and dragged it into the side of the road and cleared the broken antlers, why couldn't the first guy do that.
Walking home I saw a black golf parked up with most of the from bumper hanging off, the driver was desparately trying to remove it !!

Because people are assholes?

By law you're supposed to stop and report new forest livestock accidents. But there are so many hit and run deaths right now.

£5000 reward normally for information leading to conviction.

 

[viv1969]

The meat certainly wouldn't be inedible from even the most protracted stressful death; but it would be far far from the tastiest.
Hanging for a while would improve it somewhat, but it would remain rather tough.

 

[Garry Edwards]

We had a deer that got caught up in a fence when trying to get onto our airfield, it was badly injured and clearly suffering. We tried to contact the land owner, but couldn't get hold of him, we then called the RSPCA to ask what we should / could do. They told us that as we have licences that allow us to manage wildlife (mostly birds, but includes things like deer, foxes etc) we could shoot the animal to put it out of its misery. This is what we did, I have no idea on the strict legality of that when it was partially on someone else land, as well as ours, but morally I was comfortable we did the right thing, as I am sure the person on the the Clapham omnibus would likely agree, although with some of the decisions and opinions I see nowadays I could be on dodgy ground!

Interesting...
Legally, if you went on to someone else's land with a gun without their prior permission the offence would be one of armed trespass, which is serious.
If the animal was on their land then you were shooting their animal.
And if you shot it with a rifle then (unless you are certificated to use the rifle for humane destruction rather than for pest control) then although that wouldn't be a separate offence it would be using the rifle other than in accordance with your S.1 firearms certificate - this does not apply if a shotgun is used, as there are normally no usage conditions applied to shotguns, so I think that the advice you were given was poor.

But what you did fits my own moral compass and I also agree that "The man on the Clapham Omnibus" is likely to think so too.

Oh I see.

Well, you started your original posting by saying that it is Entirely theoretical of course.... So it imply it had not happened yet, but you're worried about what if it could happen. Surely it would be helpful to ask a solicitor, RSPCA, the local MP, and the police, in writing rather than by phone call, so whatever replies they send to you in writing, if their replies are the answer you are looking for, you could always keep those replies safe, file them away neatly. Should you be forced to take action you feel was best option, and get questioned for it, you can always show the paperwork in defence.

And say "I did my homework. I knew what I was doing and did the right thing to do. Got a problem with it, ask them!"

I hope you find the answers before it happens for real.

I once was out very late at night, driving along a B-class road, and saw a deer ran out in front of me. But I braked quickly and stopped before hitting the deer.

Whether or not the question is theoretical, even if these various people were to give their advice in writing it isn't needed, because the law is clear. Either shooting the animal on or near the public highway is unlawful (except when asked to do so by the police or a veterinary surgeon) and removing it from the scene is also unlawful. The question really is "should we do what we believe to be right or should we obey what we believe the law says?"
As for frequency, at this time of year at dusk I normally see 3 or 4 deer coming into the road every single time that I drive a mile or so, it's very common in most rural areas.

 

[Nod]

Can the police request be over the phone?

 

[rick448]

Interesting...
Legally, if you went on to someone else's land with a gun without their prior permission the offence would be one of armed trespass, which is serious.
If the animal was on their land then you were shooting their animal.
And if you shot it with a rifle then (unless you are certificated to use the rifle for humane destruction rather than for pest control) then although that wouldn't be a separate offence it would be using the rifle other than in accordance with your S.1 firearms certificate - this does not apply if a shotgun is used, as there are normally no usage conditions applied to shotguns, so I think that the advice you were given was poor.

But what you did fits my own moral compass and I also agree that "The man on the Clapham Omnibus" is likely to think so too.

A shotgun was used, and it would be difficult to say who's land it was on as it was stuck in the fence between the field and airport boundary.

 

[Diving Pete]

Interestingly, I almost had the same quandary in the Massif Central, France in 2015. A friend & I were driving at night (in the middle of nowhere) along a single track road about 40mph when a deer ran in front of our van. One large impact followed & the deer was in propelled into the undergrowth by the side of the road. I jumped out the check the animal. As I approached to about 15ft, the animal stirred, I kept my distance, it was obviously a little groggy & I had no wish to be implaled by a unhappy deer with a nice set of antlers.
It got up very unsteadily & procceded to walk away from the lights. I walked with it for about a minute, when it suddenly 'woke up' & leap over the barbed wire fence into the field beside. Phew, saved me having to figure out how I was going to kill it...
We had a broken bumper, dented bonnet & smashed headlight & blood was on front of the vehicle.