Legal issues

Steve Randles

Steve Randles

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Hi all,

Any legal eagles out there who fancy having a crack at updating the 2004 dated pdf found here http://www.sirimo.co.uk/media/UKPhotographersRights.pdf

I've seen this pdf referred to so many times over the years but cant help think that some of it is out of date and could do with an overhaul. On the plus side it would mean increased traffic for the site holding such a document. Any takers?

Steve..:)
 
If you look at the comments section of the UKPR page you'll see that it's still very active with lots of extra info. AFAIK none of the laws have changed so I don't see how the pdf could be updated :shrug:
 
Technically its a copyrighted document so it shouldnt be edited to update at all, unless its by the owner ;)
 
Personally I think it should include a copy of the child protection act. I've had that "quoted" to me before saying I can't take pictures in a public area because its illegal. I did a quick search of the document and couldn't find anything to do with photography. Unless I missed something? Oddly if I had a press pass it would have been fine...
 
For interest, I'm reliably advised that taking pictures of anyone, regardless of age & activity, in a public place is quite legal in the UK. Anyone quoting legalese if their children (especially teachers) are in-shot have no right to stop you. If they object to what you're doing - they have to herd the children away, they can't make you stop or leave, only ask.
I've got really s****y with teachers who pitch up to a landmark I'm already at & tell me to stop taking pictures so their little charges can enjoy themselves without intereference.
I think more of us should take a stand more often.
 
petemc said:
Personally I think it should include a copy of the child protection act. I've had that "quoted" to me before saying I can't take pictures in a public area because its illegal. I did a quick search of the document and couldn't find anything to do with photography. Unless I missed something? Oddly if I had a press pass it would have been fine...
Click to expand...

You haven't missed anything. It is perfectly legal to shoot kids, adults, little green men if they are in a public place and so are you.

People do talk such twaddle mostly out of ignorance and unfortunately this twaddle occasionally comes from people who should know better (i.e. the police). I always carry round a print of this document in my camera bag and in the event of anyone who complaining to me I would provide them a copy to enlighten them. However, out of politeness I would probably stop (depending on the situation of course).
 
petemc said:
Personally I think it should include a copy of the child protection act. I've had that "quoted" to me before saying I can't take pictures in a public area because its illegal. I did a quick search of the document and couldn't find anything to do with photography. Unless I missed something? Oddly if I had a press pass it would have been fine...
Click to expand...

Neither the Child Protection Act or the Children Act 2004 say anything about photography. If all the acts that didn't mention photography were included it would be a big old pdf.

If anyone tries to stop you taking photos and starts quoting acts at you politely tell them that you are well aware of your own rights and that you believe they are mistaken. However, if they would care to provide evidence to back up their claim you would be willing to examine it. Until then you believe you are perfectly entitled to continue about your business.
 
I disagree, if we don't stand up for what little rights we do have then they too will disappear...
 
I was recently stopped by a security guard from taking photos of old buildings in Grimsby Docks, he stated that all dockyards were off limits to photographers unless you had a 'security pass' from the authorities. I notice in this PDF that under the section National Security, while it states that taking photos in the dockyard was not allowed due to them being a 'prohibited place', I see a bit further along that I could have taken the photos as they were for 'innocent purposes' and in no way was I taking these for the 'purpose prejudicial to the safety or interests of the State'.

So I suppose I could have stood there and argued my case to be allowed to take these pictures for innocent purposes. Unless much has changed since this was written the other year.
 
The event I was at was as far as I know a public place but they did have their own security. They said they had to ask parents to stop taking photos of their kids, which is just horrible :( I didn't want to argue with them because firstly I wasn't 100% sure and secondly it was a company who organise a lot of events I want to get press passes to so I didn't feel like annoying them. I agree to stop taking photos and moved on. It wasn't a huge event anyway.
 
The problem is no-one is ever sure about these things. Most police would probably discourage you if they had a complaint from soneone, just to appease the situation.

If you showed them the legislation like Simon TALN suggested (very good idea I think :))I reckon they would just let you carry on!
 
I was at least thinking the UK rights pdf and the child protection act. Though it might seem suspicious carrying around details of what you legally can and cannot do with a child :) Still, I hope to get a press pass soon, so that coupled with my pocket portfolio should hopefully prove that I'm not a peedough.
 
There are already a few example of people being challenged here in this topic...and many more that I have read on various sites around the net..This is one from another board I am on..

"To All fellow photographers

The following incident happened on Sunday 18th November; -

I was doing some photography work for a friend who has no photographic knowledge he runs a community website in Ipswich

He asked me to take some photographs of Ipswich Towns lights being turned on (in a public place) by Leticia Dean. The photographs would then have been placed onto the community website he runs

Whilst I was taking photographs of an act prior to the turning on of the lights I was approached by a police woman and asked to stop taking photographs she then proceeded to ask if I had a licence to use my camera (that's a new one on me). I explained that I was working for the above mention website (I even gave her a business card with the sites details). I challenged her as to why I could not take any photographs as there were several other members of the public taking photographs with cameras, her reply was that I was seen taking photographs of the crowd. I proved to her that I was not taking pictures of the crowd only of the act on stage.

Alas she was not happy with that she said that there was an official photographer at the event and I had to stop taking photographs. I was dumbfounded by this, as there were so many others taking photographs, I was then taken behind the barriers and down an ally way to fill a form in called an Encounter & Stop/Search Record. This I found very degrading as it looked as if I had been arrested. I then erased all the images that I took. I was then told to put my camera back in my car.

What is happening in society today when you are not allowed to take photographs in a public place of a public event it was all perfectly innocent what I was doing.

I have however been informed by The British Freelane Photography Association I was well with in my rights to take the photographs.

Phil "



I then added to that topic the following..




"I found this email to a club official...depicting an innocent days shootong...guess where it was....Ipswitch!!

http://www.phooto.co.uk/rights.shtml

Read the mail there and I draw your attention to points 1 and 4

1. It is not, in any way illegal to take pictures in a public place in the UK, irrespective of what is going on.
4. Forcible deletion or removal of images is an assault.

Point 5 is also interesting

5. Even the Police officer in this case was incorrect in her interpretation of the law and the advice that it's OK to take pictures of your own children, but not of others.

I wonder if the Police in Ipswitch need some extra training... I wonder..as its a "her" if its the same officer you met..small world.!

And finally, this from the foot of the page...


"You are reminded that under UK law, there are no restrictions on taking photographs in a public place or on photography of individuals, whether they are adults or minors. There is no right to privacy in a public place, although photographers are of course subject to the usual libel laws in the same way as any other citizen and should observe them. Equipment or film may not be confiscated, or images deleted by any person or officer unless a warrant for such action is issued. Any attempt without a warrant is considered assault under UK law. "


I think I will print this last staement off and keep it in my camera bag..."



Naturally the poor cuy Phil is being backed by his local camera club and is considering his next move, but it looks like he will be taking this to the national press amongst other things.

Steve...:)
 
That sounds like a bit of an extreme Steve but annoyingly not too surprising these days. To be honest, I don't know if there's anything that can be done because some people are just dumb. You can stand your ground, quote the law, do all sorts but in the end people are idiots and probably won't listen to you in any way.

I was doing a shoot in a shopping centre the other month. I had been hired by the people who owned the shopping centre and I was wearing ID so that security knew the score. Some woman came up to me and had a go. I wasn't allowed to take pictures inside she said. She was very loud and vocal about the whole thing. I stated that I can as I was hired by the people who own the building, showed her my pass and continued to be told I could not take photos. She said security would get me. So I just had to shake it off. Annoyingly I did bump into security just 2 minutes later, in her field of view. We had a nice chat about my work, showed them my portfolio and they carried on. Obviously from her perspective it did look like I was told off :D
 
petemc said:
Personally I think it should include a copy of the child protection act. I've had that "quoted" to me before saying I can't take pictures in a public area because its illegal. I did a quick search of the document and couldn't find anything to do with photography. Unless I missed something? Oddly if I had a press pass it would have been fine...
Click to expand...

Don't forget that the ICO have put out a press release saying that the data protection act does not stop parents filming/taking photo's of school plays etc

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...ols_final1.pdf

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...s_2dec2004.pdf


I've got a copy of the above uk rights pdf, plus the recent press release from the ICO in my camera bag. Perhaps I ought to add my enhanced CRB check as well :(

I've only once been challenged though. I was at a friends house near Telford and took my camera along to their son's under 10 football match and one of the parents got quite aggressive, despite my reasoned arguments.

So I just put my camera away and told her she was missing out on some free professional quality photos of her son, however it was after I took a couple of photo's of her.

I wrote a letter to the local paper, with the photo's, explaining the common mistake made by this Mum. The letter was published - hope it did some good.
 
It just goes to show how small minded and stupid some of these people really are. I'd worry more about the paedophiles who traffic and prostitute children, or those that are involved in rings on the internet, rather than worry about someone with a camera.

Common sense? Not very common.

That story by Steve is shocking. Luckily he has the Stop and Search record, that's proof in itself that an incident took place. If I were him I would certainly be taking it further, at least to set a precedent and in the hope that our police forces train their officers better.

The only way he could have been stopped from taking photographs is if it was on private land. Even then they cannot force him to do anything, except leave the 'premises' / private land.

Also, note that if an officer states that you are illegally taking photos and must delete them, then the photos themselves are evidence and should be kept intact.
Also, I know this isn't playing fair, but if it looks like you are to be accosted by the police or security who may insist on you deleting *innocent* pictures, then learn how to quickly 'protect' all your images in-camera (with the lock function). This might fool some of the stupid knuckle draggers...lol
Although if I was approached by someone and asked to remove images of them, then I would probably oblige (as long as it was a polite request).

Its all about common courtesy. If I'm afforded courtesy, I will respond with such. Be arrogant with me and I'll just tell you to go jump...lol
 
This all makes very interesting reading. Thats it, im going out at the weekend to see if i can get told to stop taking photos. Might start outside the Police station.
If any of you watch Street Crime, they are always telling the idiots that they arrest that the camera man has every right to be filming in a public place.
 
One of the search results google turned up on guidelines about photography was from a cricket club. It went into great detail about child protection and how to handle photos of children being published. It said it best not to include details such as "This is Fred Smith who in his spare time like to collect stamps". The reason for not doing so was so that the information couldn't be used to help someone "groom" the child.

"groomers" would completely ignore the cricket aspect then? :bang::bonk::bang::cuckoo::nuts:

Restricting or removing the rights of ordinary people is great PR for the powers that be but does nothing to treat the actual problem and only forces the criminals further into hiding.
 
SimonTALM said:
It is perfectly legal to shoot kids, adults, little green men if they are in a public place and so are you.
Click to expand...

Legal? It should be bloody compulsory, so long as you finish off the ones that are merely injured.
 
I am a police officer and I would fall around laughing if another officer tried telling me to stop taking photographs. The problem with 'events' is that most of them are policed by specials ie part time officers and they do not have the same training as full time officers. Their knowledge is very slim and often just the same as another member of the public. They do a good job most of the time but occasionally get things wrong.

UK law is a complex set of rules some of which are not even written down and also including changes made by european law and court cases.

If you wrote a book on the subject and covered everything it would be 30 feet thick it is hardly surprising that not every officer knows about everything. I have just applied for our hi-tech crime unit and my knowledge of that area is very good but ask me about the wildlife act or something like that and I would have to look it up.

My advice would be to take a copy of the relevant law with you and if someone stops you just say "You are breaching my human rights by stopping me, can I have your collar number and I will sue you if you carry on" it will no doubt have a remarkable effect!

There are some places where you CANNOT take pictures and as people have found docks are one of them but also places like nuclear power stations, ministry of defence sites, army, navy and air force bases etc

You are also likely to get the police involved if you take pictures where there are children about especially if they are scantily dressed like the beach. It is a difficult balancing act dealing with someone wanting to take photos and the marauding crowds that think anyone with a camera bigger than a packet of cigarettes is some kind of pervert!
 
Marcel said:
Also, note that if an officer states that you are illegally taking photos and must delete them, then the photos themselves are evidence and should be kept intact.
Also, I know this isn't playing fair, but if it looks like you are to be accosted by the police or security who may insist on you deleting *innocent* pictures, then learn how to quickly 'protect' all your images in-camera (with the lock function). This might fool some of the stupid knuckle draggers...lol
Although if I was approached by someone and asked to remove images of them, then I would probably oblige (as long as it was a polite request).

Its all about common courtesy. If I'm afforded courtesy, I will respond with such. Be arrogant with me and I'll just tell you to go jump...lol
Click to expand...


If you have a spare card it may be easier to just delete the images *they* want. Then once out of range and before you take any more swap cards. Then when you get home just use some file recovery software (such as Recovery Pro (which comes with sandish Extreme cards) or some freeware) to get them back. As long as you haven't taken any other shots all your images will still be there without any damage to them.:)
 
pxl8 said:
If you look at the comments section of the UKPR page you'll see that it's still very active with lots of extra info. AFAIK none of the laws have changed so I don't see how the pdf could be updated :shrug:
Click to expand...

Its the last section that intrigues me:

Bank Notes
Taking photographs of UK bank notes is an offence unless permission has been given in writing by the "relevant authority". The relevant authority for English notes is the Bank of England, and for Scottish and Irish notes the relevant authority is the bank that issued the notes.
Click to expand...

A logical extension of this is that if I did not want someone to take my photograph, even in a public place, I should just wave a fiver around. That should make taking said photograph illegal. Don't know if the courts would agree though.

Andrew
 
Quote:
Bank Notes
Taking photographs of UK bank notes is an offence unless permission has been given in writing by the "relevant authority". The relevant authority for English notes is the Bank of England, and for Scottish and Irish notes the relevant authority is the bank that issued the notes.

A logical extension of this is that if I did not want someone to take my photograph, even in a public place, I should just wave a fiver around. That should make taking said photograph illegal. Don't know if the courts would agree though.

Andrew

In some places waving a fiver about is just asking to be mugged...:lol:
 
andrewm said:
A logical extension of this is that if I did not want someone to take my photograph, even in a public place, I should just wave a fiver around. That should make taking said photograph illegal. Don't know if the courts would agree though.
Click to expand...

I doubt they would as the money wouldn't be the main subject but just an incidental part of the shot - pretty much the same as not needing model releases for every face in a crowd. You could hold the fiver right up so it filled the frame but then you may as well just use your hand to prevent your photo being taken...
 
I was actually told about the incident that was highlighted in Ipswich in Steve Randles post as I work with a family member of the person involved.

He was of the same opinion as the rest of us on here and as we both do the same work as Cowasaki ;) then I would not be deleting my photographs but would be asking under what legislation these officers were using such a power!

Also what about people taking photos on their mobile phones - surely thats no fifferent to taking one with a camera :shake: and I bet no over zealous officers went around making people delete pictures on their phones...
 
I think it awfully sad that there is this paranoia about photographing people, particularly children.

I really like the work of some street photographers, but have been put off having a go myself.
 
It is worrying when the police are mis-interpreting the law. But I guess it is a fairly specialised area so they might not be 100% au-fait with the finer points.

I know people can be quite reluctant to argue with the police but I'd recommend asking them to clarify their position with someone higher, especially if they're asking you to delete your photos.

I did this when a policeman told me that he couldn't do anything about the guy who'd just punched me in the off licence I managed because "assault is a civil matter!" :thinking: His sergeant put him straight and they arrested the guy!
 
Unfortunately my experience of the police is that they tend to use whatever reasoning they find useful for the situation at hand. They may not know the specific law they're quoting from but will stand by it, unless that is you ask for clarification as already mentioned.

It just pains me so much that we live in a society which lashes out at the first available target for what is ultimately a media fed non-issue.

I mean lets face it if you were a bloody paedophile you're hardly gonna stand there in full view with a ruddy great big white lens on taking pics of kids are you!?

My next door neighbour manages our local youth football team and I'm tempted to offer my services on match day. I'd love the opportunity and experience but have been put off because of the potential hassle involved.
 
I think a lot of it comes from people wanting to cover their backs should things go wrong which is a result of media induced fear. But of course if we were in their shoes we'd want to make sure we didn't get the blame/sued/etc. should it go bad. That's another problem with the world we live - accidents are a thing of the past, find someone to blame and it's pay day.

And going off at another tangent, that also leads to people with a genuine claim having to suffer as the insurance companies and lawyers make it ever harder for fear of paying out for bogus claims. That's a reference to the 18mths it took to get a pay out after an Argos lorry rammed my wife into the central barrier on the M5 and wrote off our car :(
 
If an officer tried to tell me that assault was a civil matter, I'd have responded with the question "Well then I wont be arrested for punching you will I?"

(OK I wouldnt say that, but I would certainly be following up that attitude with a complaint. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes and not everyone is perfect, but to say something like that highlights a serious problem in training IMO)

I think the key to any problems is be polite, use common sense and courtesy, and stand your ground politely.
 
My father was taking photos for a local under 10's footy club. Having been asked by the team manager to take some pics.

Unfortunately one the oppositions fathers came on to my father and had a right go at him and would not listen to reason. Well my father is a whisker shy of 70, so getting into a physical fight with someone in his thirties is a non starter.

So my father walked away from the person and the football match. So due to some idiots verbal abuse the kids have lost out on some good photos and he will know not take any photos for the football teams in the local villages because of this idiot. So in effect everyone loses out because of one clown.

On the positive side I am going to print out copies of these documents for him to keep in his camera back.

What worries me a lot on this issue, is that if the police do not understand the law fully how is joe public supposed to know it?
 
Byker28i said:
Don't forget that the ICO have put out a press release saying that the data protection act does not stop parents filming/taking photo's of school plays etc

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...ols_final1.pdf

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...s_2dec2004.pdf
Click to expand...

Not sure if the above links are working, but here's the top page of where I found them:
http://www.ico.gov.uk/global/search_results.aspx?search=photography


Above examples are why I now carry these docs in my camera bag, plus some home printed business cards with my website address and email. You never know, I might sell some photo's :D
 
Just reading about this on another forum, and one member was saying that a lady had threatened to call the police if he took a photo of her in the street or anybody else for that matter, his reply, which looks to be a very good idea.

If someone threatens to call the cops, take out your phone and tell them you'll dial the number for them seeing as how they are harassing you publicly and that you feel threatened by their behaviour.

Suddenly they'll be much more receptive to what your rights are in this situation.
Click to expand...
 
The slightly bemusing thing about that case is that he isn't even using a full D-SLR it's just a bridge camera, closer to a point and shoot than anything!

I keep meaning to print the PDF off, but it's not often im in a street with a camera, usually a cliff top at 4am or 9pm... not usually many people around at dawn or dusk.
 
would anyone be happy enough to pm me the link to the file i need to print off nto long untill i get my camera and i want to catch the action at the lolac market at somepoint soon

thanx
Jade
 
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