Legal help:(

Status
Not open for further replies.
To be honest, I would renegotiate the terms of her receiving the images. After all, she has renegotiated the fact that you wont be receiving the !0% comission, without your input. But this time insist on a fixed fee up front, you've done the work, now get paid for it. If she hands over the cash, she gets the images ... if not, then :wave:
 
blinkerz said:
I did a shoot a few weeks ago with a model on a commision basis for her personal website she is setting up. Unfortunately after a week of setting up the 2nd shoot, she canceled
Click to expand...

The fact she cancelled breached her own contract.

What was to stop you deleting those images after she cancelled?
 
I think dakid hit the nail on the head - even if her contract had any meaning outside of Zippy and Bungles house, she should have 'sacked' you after she had received some images. She owns the copyright - you'd be better off deleting them all or you will have to ask her for permission to have them. :) It's her fault if she wanted to play silly buggers before getting a copy for herself
 
prjohns said:
What was to stop you deleting those images after she cancelled?
Click to expand...

That's a good point actually, how much time was there between her cancelling and telling you she wouldn't be using you any more, and her demanding the photos?

500 is a hell of a lot of work, and I'd be very keen not to give that much away, especially when she'll be making money out of them.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'll offer no advice legally, but it there's any way at all you can not let her get away with it, I would, otherwise she's going to keep doing this to other photographers!
 
I think I would consider speaking to a lawyer. Look up in your local yellow pages, call them, ask if they know about copyright, then say you have a query with a contract that isn't even 100 (88 on word count) words long. You Just want to know if the contract is legal and would hold up in court. How long an appointment and how much? If it's too much, say thanks very much and put the phone down, if it's not too much, make an appointment. All tax deductible.

I know that you have been trying to avoid that by asking on TP and you have had some good suggestions on here. Especially that no stipulation has been made regarding delivery of the photos, it would seem you can take your time a but and stall her.

I shall book mark this thread and hope you keep us updated with your decision and progress.


Edit:- I'm skint and almost fell like giving you the money for the lawyers bill. Unfortunately I don't have any to give.
 
If you want free advice - go to your local citizens advice.
 
blinkerz said:
The way she conducted herself and the attitude is what has really making me not want to give her something for nothing. After she canceled the 2nd shoot which i had the time/date and place etc.., she still wanted me to go up and meet and hand over the disc of the images, one of the nice texts i got was

' There's no neogation on days, i need those images by sunday.. i don't have time to be chasing up things like this you would of been coming to the shoot on sunday morning so you can meet sunday morning...'

I went to london on the sunday, just to keep the peace and the fact i was still working for her. Once i met the videographer from before i found out the shoot was carrying on etc., had his camcorder etc.. and ready to meet her and be with another photographer..
Click to expand...

I'm I to understand that you almost handed a disc over with the images, but realised what was going on and made out you'd made an error by picking up the wrong disc or something? Well done if you did, it would however make it difficult for you to make out your hard drive failed if she thinks you had prepared a disc and picked up the incorrect one. I could be making wrong guesses here.
 
This is a mess isn't it. I'll throw in my thoughts on the situation as I see it.
1) Learn from it and don't do it again
2) Seek proper legal advice from a solicitor, preferably one who knows about contracts. You have a reputation that you want to build and if you do the wrong thing now it could have much more significant issues for you in future. I suspect that the contract is worthless and a properly worded letter from your solicitor will ensure that the matter is dealt with appropriately.
3) While you're there get a proper standard contract drawn up. Like any business the start up costs always seem expensive because you don't have the cash handy, but how much will you lose if you don't get it right from the start?

I won't offer any views on whether or not you hand over the images as I'm not qualified to offer such an opinion.
 
is there any date, or reference to particular images?
I would be considering whether her career taking off has any benefit to you?
If it does then you can
1. get the contract legally checked out and proven to be unenforceable, and tell her she has to pay for the images
or
2. just give them to her
If her career path has no effect on you whatsoever, I would, as above, get confirmation the the contract is not a legal document and tell her to sod off

A
 
This is getting unnecessarily complicated. The facts are:

Miss Model does not have a legally binding Contract of Sale with you as the document is drawn up and titled as a Copyright Agreement and it only covers copyright. Therefore you are not required legally to supply her with any of the photographs.

You do have a Copyright Agreement with Miss Model. She can sign hers and only one is required. It can also be classed as a verbal contract which is equally legally binding.

The content of the Copyright Agreement is questionable legally. However, it is only worth getting into this if you want to use the photos yourself e.g. in your portfolio. Given the hassle and grief so far and the cost of pursuing this legally, you'd be much better off writing this off to experience and forgetting about it.

If she wants the photographs, draw up a Contract of Sale outlining the price per photograph inclusive of copyright (per the Copyright Agreement) and the price exclusive of copyright (i.e. replacing the Copyright Agreement). The latter needs careful wording.
 
I thought a contract had to be signed and dated. Apart from the date stated in the first line of the agreement this has not be done by either party.
 
Yes, it is getting unnecessarily complicated. Just tell her to **** off and move on to the next job.:thumbs:
 
Just read through ALL of this thread and the first thing I have to say is offer my condolences for all the bad advice you're getting.

With the greatest respect, can people stop saying things like "both contracts have to be signed for it to be legal" etc etc. I know you're trying to help but this is absolutely not true and I think you all know its not true. Also, to everyone suggesting that the OP deletes the pictures, again, you know this isn't the right thing to do.

Forget contract details, who said what, who signed what and whats happened in the past. There are going to be only ONE OF TWO outcomes here, either;
- You hand over the pictures
- You don't hand over the pictures

Weigh up the pro's and cons of each outcome and decide whats best. I can help you with some absolute hard facts that are true for both scenarios
- You will NOT get paid (unless you can amicably negotiate a fixed fee)
- Her website is going live (with or without your pics)
- You have done the shoot and will never get your time back (whats done is done)

Personally, if it was me... I'd give her the full photos along with your own contract that goes along the lines of
"Miss Models gets full ownership/copyright of all images contained in Disc XYZ, Mr Photographer gets £negotiated in return, this matter is now closed"

Remember, every story has two sides, and who's to say she isn't bad mouthing you to her friends/clients/other togs. Best to make the peace and write it off.

Finally, you are VERY LUCKY. Here's a good example where you've got a bad deal in business, but financially you have lost NOTHING. The only possible way you can lose money here is by NOT handing over the pics and being taken to court.

(Just to validate my comments in some way, no.... I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a Senior Account Manager overseeing £100k+ contracts on a daily basis)
 
She can own the copyright to the images but that dosent mean you have to give them to her, it just means you can't use them. if she wants them then invoice her for your work.
 
sorry i didn't read this whole thread, but i would stick all her images through a very nice blur action in PS and post them to her. (shame you auto focus wasnt working on the day wasn't it??? ;)

cheeky cow !


btw, post a pic up on here so we can see if she'd cut it in the modelling world ;)
 
wrx_dazza said:
sorry i didn't read this whole thread, but i would stick all her images through a very nice blur action in PS and post them to her. (shame you auto focus wasnt working on the day wasn't it??? ;)

cheeky cow !


btw, post a pic up on here so we can see if she'd cut it in the modelling world ;)
Click to expand...

She would :D They are in nudes and glamour! :love:
 
I don't understand. I think this is quite simple?

Firstly, I am no lawyer but any exemptions from the "unless other wise stated" has to be stated at the signing of the contract or the contract has to be re-signed if the exemptions were added afterwards. So she cannot simply put that in and then at a later date unilaterally change the contract. "unless other wise stated" is usually used on for example contracts that estate agents use for properties. The idea is that they can just have a ready made contract that they can use without the need of making individual ones for every sale. But the problem is, sometimes individual transactions defer, thus the need for extra bits added. This is done PRIOR to the signing, written on the contract and both sides agreed on what the "other wise stated" is and then signed. So, in your case, there were nothing "other-wise stated" as the contract was just like that with no extra bits when you signed. Also, the way she told you on the phone how she thought this line works shows that she have no idea how contracts work whatsoever.

Secondly, even if that was accepted, the contract was still written in a way with the intention to mislead. Why would someone draw up a contract that promises a certain amount of remuneration that can be unilaterally retracted? There is no apparent logic and would therefore not stand in court.

Thirdly, every exchange contract has to include a consideration for the seller. If she takes the contract the original way in which she gives you 10% then all is fine but if she refuses then it mean you are not getting anything and thus the contract does not stand. Both sides have to be getting something in order for the contract to stand.
 
Run a batch process and accidentally reduce the RAWs by 90% or something. Delete the RAWs, oh crikey, you just realised!

Human error. Pictures are rendered unusable in any event for commercial purposes, she doesn't pay you, you've lost your time but with pride intact. Then you tell us who she is so people can avoid her - there's no confidentiality clause in the contract, and if all this is true, no danger of libel.
 
Just to add to that, there's also nothing about compensation. Since there's no consideration to be paid to you for the work, it's fair to say that you wouldn't need to pay back anything in case of a breach. And that's why contracts don't stand if there's no considerations for both sides.

Also, there's no mention what the acceptable standards for the photos are. Whether it should be untouched RAW photo straight from the shoot or finished products after post. Thus you can provide highly pixel-ated pictures and claim that this is your artistic output from the shoot.
 
Also remember model releases aren't legally required in the UK, so you could potentially turn around and sell these if the "contract" is null and void and she has no copyright, ownership or other claim over the images. ;)
 
I get the feeling that she's only interested in getting the images because she feels that she is going to make it big time and doesn't want these appearing later on.
I suppose that makes sense really. But it's the way she has gone about it that is wrong. She needs to grow up and learn some people skills and realise that you don't walk all over people. You may just meet them on the way down. (hence her not wanting you to keep the shots)
I think I would talk to her in a professional manner and explain that you are both artists and that 'there is no such thing as a free lunch'.
I would invoice her for a days work. A reasonable price and in return produce your usual high standard of work.
I've got to say, if I was in this situation (wouldn't be though), I would take it to court and stand my ground.


Kev.
 
Having read through this I think it's fairly simple.

It's a copyright agreement not a sale agreement. It doesnt state when you are due to hand it over, and as she has now decided you will not get any payment before receiving the shots she can have no use for them.

Nowhere does it state that you will hand over the images in a particular format.

Apart from the obvious "not worth the paper its written on" statement due to the lack of details around you giving up all your copyright from here on in, I would just tell her where to stick it.
 
I'm not lawyer but once wanted to be one :)

A contract does not have to signed, witnessed or in writing to be valid. The key to any contract (verbal or written) is 'consideration'. In essence, consideration is that for doing or providing x I give you y.

The 'contract' as shown is, in my opinion, absolute rubbish and would have no chance of any enforcement. The key aspect is that there is no delivery date or defined product other than the term 'image'.

As there is no defined delivery date and as I would have taken exception to her texting 'not negotiable' when expecting me to give up a Sunday then I would:

a. run this by a lawyer or at least CAB
b. tell her that you have got advice and are getting further advice and that nothing will be delivered until you have had that advice
c. tell her that there is no date by which you must supply the images in the contract and that regardless of what she may want you have no intention of delivering anything until ordered to do so by a court or advised to do so by your solicitor.

I would also advise you to stop thinking of her as a client. Until she parts with some money she is someone who wants your work but is not prepared to pay for it. That is not a client.

I would not delete the images as it is possible that you will be advised (when you get some professional advice) to hand them over. I cannot see this happening but it is possible that a court would view the fact that she paid for the studio time as 'consideration' on her part and that the written contract has no standing but the implied or verbal contract is still valid.

You are talented and your talents will grow. She is good looking but her looks will fade. Learn from this and move on.

John
 
Bazza155 said:
I thought a contract had to be signed and dated. Apart from the date stated in the first line of the agreement this has not be done by either party.
Click to expand...

As already said by people more qualified than me, nope. We haven't actually had our customers sign a contract for about 5 years now, totally different market, but still relevant.
 
jpwone said:
snipped a bit ...

You are talented and your talents will grow. She is good looking but her looks will fade. Learn from this and move on.
John
Click to expand...

This is good advice :clap: ... and also my new saying.
 
lots of advice being given here,more than a few say seek professional guidance which is the thing to do if only to get a template contract made up for future work?
if it were me. i would not "give" her any shots,(the contract does not state you "have " to supply images) i would possibly "sell" her some that she would like to use as per your copyright contract, let her have small res watermaked samples maybe as a gesture, re do a contract for images you agree to sell stating these alone are the only ones she has the copyright to :)
that's if it was me, then i'd wait and see if she challenged me or just accepted the fact i'd sussed her game for free photos :)
 
my personal opinion would be that she isnt upholding her end of the deal so why should you.. personally id tell her to jog on (and then ask for a date..).

but as said try your local citizens advice.
 
"All pictures and videos taking by MR PHOTOGRAPHER dated ...... And for the foreseeable future will be be the sole copyright of Miss Model."

I've never heard of a contract which is "for the foreseeable future", who determines how long this is?

Its a great shame you did not have the sessions in the contact.
 
Treesie said:
I've never heard of a contract which is "for the foreseeable future", who determines how long this is?
Click to expand...
The future isn't foreseeable by anyone. even if this was re-worded to say "for a reasonable length of time" it would be impossible to determine what was meant by it. The length of a contract needs to be expressly stated in the terms.
 
Sorry, I know this has been repeated and repeated, but just to put me and anyone else in doubt straight.. are you saying that she wants the images, to still put on her site, but will no longer pay you the 10% comission on any sales of those images as first agreed in the contract?

Because, if she will pay you the 10%, then I'd actually say to just give her the images with a new tight contract for your comission, regardless of not continuing using you as the photographer, as there was nothing in the contract about that.

If she's not going to pay you the 10% comission upon sales, then definitely seek further advice from a professional.
 
food for thought:thinking: but i was under the impression to have ownership of photo copyright the customer had to supply the media that the photographer had used to take the photo on
it would apper that she is the one in breach of a flimsey contract :lol:that there is no room to wipe your a!"? on:rules:
 
Laughable contract. But not being signed is irrelevant.

I'd suggest you tell her that your initial legal advice is that this contract is utterly unenforceable and as such all copyright is retained by yourself.

You are however prepared to enter into an agreement with her, which you will negotiate on xxx terms. Failing this you will look to recoup your costs by licensing elsewhere.

Do not hand over any images until this has been done.

This time get a proper contract for the licensing of your images and including a clause which draws a line under the whole sorry episode. A sort of 'full and final' thing.
Use a lawyer. Contract lawyers only look expensive until you have to use the contract.

She can of course then go to a proper lawyer and try to enforce the silly contract. When she does that they should tell her not to be silly and that she ought to arrange a suitable deal.



edit: Remember that when talking contracts, someone has to take you to court to enforce it. This gives a number of judges/lawyers an opportunity for a really good laugh.
 
I didn't reply properly to this earlier but here's my 2p worth now.

You need to speak to a lawyer before you do anything.

Just because it's a bad contract doesn't mean it's unenforceable. As a businessman it's up to you to make sure that you don't get yourself into a situation which is to your detriment.

Personally, I can see an argument on both sides here. She certainly looks as if she's bent you over but you've signed it and the spirit of it is quite clear.
 
Serious question: If a contract does not need to be signed, surely anyone can just draw up a new contract and say it succeeds the previous (signed) contract?

But, IMO, proper legal advice is required, especially as the contract seems to imply that the photographer has signed away ALL his work from the point of the contact, not just those which were taken of the model. Having said that, it seems like the model has also given the photographer 10% of ALL the website's revenue.

I'll bet she won't use the website on the contract for marketing, but create a new website meaning that there will be no revenue from the original.

But, I am a cynic.
 
People complain all the time about lawyers and the fees they charge (and I'm no exception). Nevertheless, the "advice" offered in the preceding posts is about 97% junk. It is disturbing that so many are prepared to encourage you to lie or worse.

Lawyers love their barrack room colleagues - they make loads of dosh from sorting their so-called solutions and good luck to them.

Consult a lawyer. Any lawyer: the lawyer who has not studied contract law does not exist. Listen to their advice and act upon it. Internet advice, as is often said, is worth exactly what it cost you.

I'm not a lawyer either but I have studied and been examined in contract law.
 
I know some have said don't go down the loss of data route but I agree with those who have suggested it.
Storage devices get corrupted and if I were in your shoes, I would've taken that route and would not have posted the opening thread.
 
OutLore said:
Serious question: If a contract does not need to be signed, surely anyone can just draw up a new contract and say it succeeds the previous (signed) contract?
Click to expand...

If there is no signature from either party this contract wouldn't stand as there is no proof of either accepting, as it is, even with only one signature, he has shown he accepts the contracts terms and conditions which technically holds him responsible to hand over the copyright for ALL his pictures from the date of the shoot (No just photographs of her)

"All pictures and videos taking by MR PHOTOGRAPHER dated ...... And for the foreseeable future will be be the sole copyright of Miss Model."

It also states that he will receive 10% of WHATEVER the website makes, not just from the pictures...

"MR PHOTOGRAPHER will receive 10% of all revenue from www.*****"


... That is unless she states otherwise, which I believe she did.

"unless otherwise stated by Miss MODEL."

I can see both sides of the argument, but at the end of the day a contract is a contract, no matter how "stupid", if you signed this unfortunately you may be held to it.

As many people have stated, I would be seeking professional legal advice, don't do anything stupid and tell her your hard drive failed etc. Only contact her to let her know you are currently seeking legal advice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top