Legal help please: trying to stop me taking photos.

JumboBeef

JumboBeef

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Hello all,

Not been around for a while so, howdy! :wave:

I have a legal question!

I am a professional photographer, with pro kit (1D MK IV + L Lenses).

I photograph a certain type of sport. My work includes commissions and I also attend events and place photographs of these events on my blog, website and Facebook. I offer prints for sale.

I recently received an email from the organiser of one event saying they have a contracted photographer and so would I stop from taking and/or selling photographs of the event, and to contact them first if I did want to take more photographs of future events.

Can they stop me from taking/selling photos?

This is in Scotland at a free entry event, held on private but open ground. The Right To Roam in Scotland law would mean I could walk over that land at any time on any day taking photographs as I go. This is any different on the day of an event.....?

Thanks.

PS: not talking about model releases, they are not the issue.
 
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I'm not sure about Scotland but the norm is private land their rules, even on rights of way your only allowed to travel the path, it's not a right to take photos.
That said it sounds like they are trying to scare you off, if your making money from this it might be worth you checking properly with a lawyer.
 
The access legislation in Scotland (Land Reform Act) gives a right of public access to almost all land and water for a number of activities e.g recreaction, education and so on. Photography is specifically mentioned as a legitimate pursuit when taking access.

However, the access is conditional on that ubiquitous word "reasonable". You must behave reasonably which means, among other thing not disrupting other people's legitimate activies.

I would think in this case the nature of the ground you are on may have a bearing. On the face of it I doubt if anyone could stop you taking pics. Why not contact the Access Officer for the county concerned. If a landowner is attempting to inhibit access it is for the AO to correct that. (You may find that the the right to roam on the land in question has been temporarily suspended for the event. Landowners can get that if they have good cause. Again, the AO would know).
BTW, Land Reform Act enforcement is not a police matter and the police will only become involved when criminal activity takes place.

Having said all that, if someone has organised an event of some sort and is paying a photographer to take pics for sale then it is not very good form to freeload on that.
 
Sounds to me that they are perfectly within their rights to ask (tell) you to stop taking photos and selling prints.

As above, just because you have a right to pass doesn't mean you have a right to take photographs or to sell them. You have the right to pass, full stop.
 
arclight said:
Photography is specifically mentioned as a legitimate pursuit when taking access.
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That sounds more like a pastime or a hobby. I cannot imagine a professional activity being allowed (without prior permission).

Being granted access, due to the Law in Scotland, is not the same as being permitted to carry out professional activity whilst exercising your right to access.

You really do need to seek proper advice locally. Although, IMHO, you're probably screwed.
 
Scottish Outdoor Access Code covers many rights but those rights are specifically non-commercial.

You do not have a right to go and conduct commercial activity on someone's land without permission.

Photographs for personal use, yes.

Whilst you could turn up and either just try your luck or walk about taking personal photos just to annoy them because you can, I'd *personally* take the message that I wasn't wanted there and as a professional photographer not want to sully my reputation in a p***ing contest with an event organiser.

I have no idea which sport you are talking about, but whichever it is, its a small world and bad reputations spread like wildfire.
 
So from what you've written, they've got an official photographer on site but you want to sneak in, take photographs and sell them (metaphorically speaking) from a car boot without having any of the responsibilities or financial burden of the contracted bloke? I emphasise that this is based on what you've written.

Sorry, but there's no way of putting this nicely, but that's not a very professional attitude, no matter what kit you've got and how long you were a cameraman for.

They've asked you nicely (or not so nicely) to stop and given you an avenue to negotiate if you wish to pursue it. Why don't you talk to them.

In England this would be clear cut. You would be committing trespass ab initio and leaving yourself open to prosecution. In Scotland it's less clear. The 2003 Land Reform Act has made Scottish trespass even less clear than the pre-existing state of affairs, so you'd need proper legal advice (probably from CAB or similar) to clarify your position.

This doesn't escape the fact that you are trying to nick someone else's living that they've taken the effort to organise properly.

Do you really want to photograph field trials that badly?
 
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desantnik said:
I have no idea which sport you are talking about, but whichever it is, its a small world and bad reputations spread like wildfire.
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There's a little bit more going on here than initially meets the eye.
 
Well, if it is a turf war, don't expect me or anyone else to support the OP.

I hate that kind of stupidity.
 
DemiLion said:
So from what you've written, they've got an official photographer on site but you want to sneak in, take photographs and sell them (metaphorically speaking) from a car boot without having any of the responsibilities or financial burden of the contracted bloke? I emphasise that this is based on what you've written.

Sorry, but there's no way of putting this nicely, but that's not a very professional attitude, no matter what kit you've got and how long you were a cameraman for.

They've asked you nicely (or not so nicely) to stop and given you an avenue to negotiate if you wish to pursue it. Why don't you talk to them.

In England this would be clear cut. You would be committing trespass ab initio and leaving yourself open to prosecution. In Scotland it's less clear. The 2003 Land Reform Act has made Scottish trespass even less clear than the pre-existing state of affairs, so you'd need proper legal advice (probably from CAB or similar) to clarify your position.

This doesn't escape the fact that you are trying to nick someone else's living that they've taken the effort to organise properly.

Do you really want to photograph field trials that badly?
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I would adgree,just talk to them :)
 
JumboBeef said:
I am a professional photographer, with pro kit (1D MK IV + L Lenses).
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Most professional photographers don't feel the need to emphasise that they use 'pro kit' and then list some of it.

Just out of interest, are you a true pro or just a weekend warrior trying to make a bit of money on the side.

I feel that if you were a true professional you would have sussed all this out beforehand.
 
Ploddles said:
Most professional photographers don't feel the need to emphasise that they use 'pro kit' and then list some of it.

Just out of interest, are you a true pro or just a weekend warrior trying to make a bit of money on the side.

I feel that if you were a true professional you would have sussed all this out beforehand.
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I think thats a really unhelpful comment to the OP. He may have just emphasized his kit because many people go to sporting events with just a regular point and shoot etc.

Why should it matter when he takes photos, if he is a "weekend warrior" or not, it shouldn't. He takes photos and accepts payment, he is a pro in my eyes. I don't know why that matters, out of interest would you care to explain why you ask?

You sound like an experienced photographer yourself as you feel that the OP should have everything sussed. I'm just breaking into the photography market the last few years and knowing things like that comes with experience. There are situations you don't know the answer to and thus you have to ask.


OP I'm not sure of the law in Scotland but I do know of events where photography is prohibited. One particular one is a large golfing event, they only let people with a press pass take photos and a friend of mine with pro gear was asked to stop taking shots as he didn't have a press pass. So I would think the answer is yes they are aloud but I might be wrong. It's only a presumption and I'm not sure with the Scotland law. Sorry I can't be of more help :)
 
they have a contracted photographer and so would I stop from taking and/or selling photographs of the event, and to contact them first if I did want to take more photographs of future events.

- a reasonable request. Dunno what you're making a scene about.
 
JumboBeef said:
I recently received an email from the organiser of one event saying they have a contracted photographer .
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My advice would be to walk away from this one and you become the person above :)
 
Thanks for the replies.

I really don't want to say what the sport is because, as someone said, it is a small world.

I mentioned the pro kit because I think this is why the organisers have gone for me ~ there were others there taking photos (for who knows what use) using non-pro kit. I think the kit caught their eye.

There was nothing to tell me on the day (or before) that there was a contracted photographer there. I have visited many of these events before (different organisers and in different locations) taking and selling photographs before without problem, actually normally very much welcomed.

The sport is not fishing, but lets say it is. You have spent years following and taking photographs of fishing contests held on open and accessible land taking photos. Now one organiser says "you can't do that because we have decided to employ the services of one photographers" How would you feel about that?
 
JumboBeef said:
The sport is not fishing, but lets say it is. You have spent years following and taking photographs of fishing contests held on open and accessible land taking photos. Now one organiser says "you can't do that because we have decided to employ the services of one photographers" How would you feel about that?
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Their train set, their rules.

It's par for the course in most equestrian disciplines and several other sporting areas that I can think of.

The photographers gets an exclusive market and the organiser gets the photographers attendance fee (in a large number of cases). They also get to ensure that the photographer is of a sufficiently decent standard.

Looks like someone had a decent amount of initiative if this is only just starting in your 'field'.
 
JumboBeef said:
Thanks for the replies.

I really don't want to say what the sport is because, as someone said, it is a small world.

I mentioned the pro kit because I think this is why the organisers have gone for me ~ there were others there taking photos (for who knows what use) using non-pro kit. I think the kit caught their eye.

There was nothing to tell me on the day (or before) that there was a contracted photographer there. I have visited many of these events before (different organisers and in different locations) taking and selling photographs before without problem, actually normally very much welcomed.

The sport is not fishing, but lets say it is. You have spent years following and taking photographs of fishing contests held on open and accessible land taking photos. Now one organiser says "you can't do that because we have decided to employ the services of one photographers" How would you feel about that?
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Cheesed off but to be honest it's their choice, it's their event...
 
There is no right to roam on a golf course so that might be a bad example. (There is a right of passage over the golf course or if there is a dedicated right of way over the course then there is a right to roam within the confines of the right of way.)

Some commercial activities can be undertaken under the right to roam i.e. those which could be undertaken as a hobby. To quote the act :-

"for the purposes of carrying on, commercially or for profit, an activity which the person exercising the right could carry on otherwise than commercially or for profit. ."

However I'm not a lawyer and if you really want proper legal advice a photography forum is not the place for it. My view is that you're on a hiding to nothing. Even if (and it's a big if) you were legally in the right what practically are you going to do ?
 
JumboBeef said:
The sport is not fishing, but lets say it is. You have spent years following and taking photographs of fishing contests held on open and accessible land taking photos. Now one organiser says "you can't do that because we have decided to employ the services of one photographers" How would you feel about that?
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Happens quite a bit IMHO, my own personal suggestion would be to walk away from this one and benefit another time when the boot is on the other foot.

Foul your nest too much and the only boot on a foot will be the one constantly kicking your behind....

Don't think about short term objectives, play the long game - that is how you get on...
 
thats putting it pretty harshly TBH

DemiLion said:
So from what you've written, they've got an official photographer on site but you want to sneak in, take photographs and sell them (metaphorically speaking) from a car boot without having any of the responsibilities or financial burden of the contracted bloke? I emphasise that this is based on what you've written.

Sorry, but there's no way of putting this nicely, but that's not a very professional attitude, no matter what kit you've got and how long you were a cameraman for.

They've asked you nicely (or not so nicely) to stop and given you an avenue to negotiate if you wish to pursue it. Why don't you talk to them.

In England this would be clear cut. You would be committing trespass ab initio and leaving yourself open to prosecution. In Scotland it's less clear. The 2003 Land Reform Act has made Scottish trespass even less clear than the pre-existing state of affairs, so you'd need proper legal advice (probably from CAB or similar) to clarify your position.

This doesn't escape the fact that you are trying to nick someone else's living that they've taken the effort to organise properly.

Do you really want to photograph field trials that badly?
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as its already been said they can stop you from taking pics but it would be very hard to stop you selling prints of images you already have.

I'd be interested to know where you are taking pics though
 
I think you should become the pro that you state you are and open the dialogue with the organiser, this could lead to a better future position for your business and at the worst they will not have course to bad mouth you and restrict your opportunities.

Loving the teasing comments though Mark ;) bet you have an inside track on these things :D

Phil.
 
Ploddles said:
Most professional photographers don't feel the need to emphasise that they use 'pro kit' and then list some of it.

Just out of interest, are you a true pro or just a weekend warrior trying to make a bit of money on the side.

I feel that if you were a true professional you would have sussed all this out beforehand.
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Yeah what she said!

Lol. All joking aside a true pro would had this covered long ago.
 
POAH said:
thats putting it pretty harshly TBH
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Odd, I actually think Mark phrased it very politely and makes valid points.

To the OP... get in there and start dialogue, not just with these organisers, but others too and make it official rather than griping that they are stopping you.
 
Can I just say I know many a photographer who doesn't use pro kit equipment. A camera no matter how expensive is, how many features it has is just a light tight box at the end of the day. How expensive it is means nothing as if the user hasn't got a clue then the images suffer. I prefer to let my images do the talking rather than how expensive and 'pro' my gear is.

Also find it slightly annoying you want others to help you regarding your situation but feel you can't share what your photographing !!!!!
 
Am I getting this right?

OP has been going to a mystery sporting event or events, held on private property, and without the approval of the event organiser or land owner or presumably, participants, has been taking photographs and selling these through a website and Facebook (this doesn't sound very pro) and has now been asked to cease and desist by one of the land owner/event organisers and he thinks this out of order?
 
You say the organisers have a "contracted photographer" he/she is probably either paying the organisers or giving them a percentage of the takings, you can see why they might want to stop you from cutting them out of their share.
Why not talk to them and see if theres a way for you to work together?
 
Yv said:
Odd, I actually think Mark phrased it very politely and makes valid points.

To the OP... get in there and start dialogue, not just with these organisers, but others too and make it official rather than griping that they are stopping you.
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agreed, i think mark hit the nail on the head.

just think, if the OP had discussed the selling of photos with the organisers before hand they may be the official photographer now..
 
Somebody decided that they could take photographs of us shooting some while back.They couldn`t,they left,end of.
 
Been to a few events myself as official photographer selling prints on site and were paying to be there either in commision or other wise, mum and dad with thier cameras don't bother me but should someone knock up and be dishing cards out offering images/prints for sale then it is in the contract between me and the organiser that we are the only ones to be there selling so the organiser is made aware and they invite the other photographer to leave. I suspect this is the same situation so do as you are asked and leave or stop touting for business.
 
Little John said:
Been to a few events myself as official photographer selling prints on site and were paying to be there either in commision or other wise, mum and dad with thier cameras don't bother me but should someone knock up and be dishing cards out offering images/prints for sale then it is in the contract between me and the organiser that we are the only ones to be there selling so the organiser is made aware and they invite the other photographer to leave. I suspect this is the same situation so do as you are asked and leave or stop touting for business.
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I gave up a long time ago worrying about mum/dad ect with pocket cameras... even when they crowd round to take the same team pic as me... I still make sales :)
 
I'd say it's a case of common courtesy rather than a legal issue?
 
Its probably not a legal issue for you to be taking photos there but the legal issue will arrise from the contracted photographer who will have it in the contract that he is the only photographer there selling prints and images. If the organiser does nothing to stop you then the contracted photographer will get slightly annoyed shal we say and it will be the organiser who has failed to uphold their side of the contract. They are protecting their asses.
 
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