Legal advice appreciated - vehicle rejection

Mahoneyd187

Mahoneyd187

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Hey guys,

I have a 2010 Mercedes Benz Smart Car fortwo coupe CDI.

Massively long story short....goes wrong all the time, current fault has now occured 3 times (last repair was barely a month ago).

About 2 months after buying the brand new car last year, I aired my complaint immediately as faults occured within weeks of taking delivery. I wanted to reject it, Mercedes dealership slammed the door shut, blatant no. I got it repaired at the time, and rightly or wrongly sucked it up.

Have been to the dealership about ten times since....

Current fault is a repeating fault, 3rd time, last fixed 2 weeks ago.

Have spoken to citizens advice who have confirmed, it's not fit for purpose, you are within your rights to reject the vehicle.

I have written to Mercedes Benz finance (as advised by citizens advice, as the CREDITORS are responsible)...I had to chase this up 10 days later after having received nothing.

After chasing and chasing, it turns out Mercedes Benz don't follow this procedure...apparently...I needed to communicate directly in writing with the dealership.

So ok, wrote to the sales manager last week, basically saying I've sought legal advice, the cars broken again, I'm rejecting the car and delivering to you next week on the 1st March. So....I still heard nothing, no letter, no call ,no email.

I called moments ago and spoke with the Sales Manager. Apparently I can certainly leave the car there "for storage" if I wish to, but their solicitor is speaking to Mercedes to see if they can get me a replacement car....

....I say..."no thanks, I don't want a replacement, that's not what I specified."

He replies "ok".

SO...I say what do I need to bring with me tomorrow paperwork wise?

Response..."whatever you wish to leave here...."

Ok I'm getting nowhere, I AM DELIVERING you the car tomorrow, and I'm giving you the log book, and all documentation, then you can deal with what you need to but you're having it.

....."ok" he says....

USELESS £$^%)(£$*%^()*£$^()*£$() !!

So frustrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone help me out here :bang:
 
I would call and make sure the dealer principal is at the showroom when you leave the car, and leave it with him personally.
I would also ask them to sign something to say they have taken the car, dated and timed, so there can be no disputes.
Can I ask was the vehicle invoiced to you or to Merc Finance? If it was invoiced to Merc Finance, then they purchased the vehicle and are the legal owners, regardless of what they tell you. If that is the case, then legally, not being the owner of the vehicle, or the purchaser, then you have no legal rights with the dealer, as the Sale of GOods act covers the origional purchaser, I beleive. I could be wrong though, but is is worth knowing.

Wheres NissanMan when you need him, he works for a dealership?
 
This is going to sound odd.....Take some photos of the car, in and out, body number etc, incase it get's damaged after you have given it back. Good Luck..
 
Photo Plod said:
Sounds like you've already had legal advice through the Citizens' Advice Bureau. What exactly do you need help with?
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With the fact that Mercedes Benz do not seem to be bothered, and that despite the Law being on my side there isn't anything else I can think of doing. :thumbsdown:
 
lawrie29 said:
I would call and make sure the dealer principal is at the showroom when you leave the car, and leave it with him personally.
I would also ask them to sign something to say they have taken the car, dated and timed, so there can be no disputes.
Can I ask was the vehicle invoiced to you or to Merc Finance? If it was invoiced to Merc Finance, then they purchased the vehicle and are the legal owners, regardless of what they tell you. If that is the case, then legally, not being the owner of the vehicle, or the purchaser, then you have no legal rights with the dealer, as the Sale of GOods act covers the origional purchaser, I beleive. I could be wrong though, but is is worth knowing.

Wheres NissanMan when you need him, he works for a dealership?
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I'm not sure whether I have something as simple as an invoice, though I do have plenty of other paperwork.

It's a hire purchase agreement, and as such I understand that I do not own the vehicle until the very last balloon payment is made. However, I have the V5 log book, so I'm a little confused.
 
Stop your payments and tell your HP company your not paying for a substandard product . That's What I did and it duly fixed their attention ,you must stand your ground though ,have you records of the faults and repairs done by the garage ,if so photo copy them and send copies to the HP company and express how unhappy and stressed you are about the whole situation ... Good luck
 
Mahoneyd187 said:
I'm not sure whether I have something as simple as an invoice, though I do have plenty of other paperwork.

It's a hire purchase agreement, and as such I understand that I do not own the vehicle until the very last balloon payment is made. However, I have the V5 log book, so I'm a little confused.
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If it is HP, then the HP company would usually have had an invoice from the garage so they ahve title to the car. You will have the V5 etc. as the registered keeper to tax the car etc.

Usually at this point a finance co is dead handy as their legal team are usually all over this, as they don't want a car that doesn't work as it would be worthless, so they have no security over the loan.

If ou do with hold payments, make sure it does not affect your credit rating.
 
lawrie29 said:
I would call and make sure the dealer principal is at the showroom when you leave the car, and leave it with him personally.
I would also ask them to sign something to say they have taken the car, dated and timed, so there can be no disputes.
Can I ask was the vehicle invoiced to you or to Merc Finance? If it was invoiced to Merc Finance, then they purchased the vehicle and are the legal owners, regardless of what they tell you. If that is the case, then legally, not being the owner of the vehicle, or the purchaser, then you have no legal rights with the dealer, as the Sale of GOods act covers the origional purchaser, I beleive. I could be wrong though, but is is worth knowing.

Wheres NissanMan when you need him, he works for a dealership?
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Thanks Lawrie, I would not leave the car at the Dealership, until this is sorted correctly you own the car and by leaving it at the Dealership if it takes an extended period of time to resolve and you could not reject the vehicle the dealership could charge you storage costs.

Mahoneyd187 said:
I'm not sure whether I have something as simple as an invoice, though I do have plenty of other paperwork.

It's a hire purchase agreement, and as such I understand that I do not own the vehicle until the very last balloon payment is made. However, I have the V5 log book, so I'm a little confused.
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V5 is not ownership, the PCP agreement you signed is a legally binding contract which will state that you are repsonsible for the vehicle until you have made the last payment or if it is a Regulated agreement until you have paid half of it off when yuo would have the right to hand the vehicle back although I am guessing that would not be a very good option at the mo as you would lose all monies paid so far.

mxfun said:
Stop your payments and tell your HP company your not paying for a substandard product . That's What I did and it duly fixed their attention ,you must stand your ground though ,have you records of the faults and repairs done by the garage ,if so photo copy them and send copies to the HP company and express how unhappy and stressed you are about the whole situation ... Good luck
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Definately NO!!! If you were to stop making payments to the finance house you would show as being in arrears and this would have an adverse effect on your credit score no matter what the outcome!


lawrie29 said:
If it is HP, then the HP company would usually have had an invoice from the garage so they ahve title to the car. You will have the V5 etc. as the registered keeper to tax the car etc.

Usually at this point a finance co is dead handy as their legal team are usually all over this, as they don't want a car that doesn't work as it would be worthless, so they have no security over the loan.

If ou do with hold payments, make sure it does not affect your credit rating.
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Spot on, although I would imagine if merc finance would side with the dealer as it is in there interest to keep you in the car although would definately be worthwile including them in any correspondance.


Personally although it is a slwo process what you need to do ni the first instance is to draft a letter to:

a) The Dealership Principal of the dealership where you bought the car.
b) If part of a chain the complaints department
b) The Finance House Customer Services Team
c) Merc UK Head Office

In the letter state:

a) The recipients of the letter
b) The date by which you want a repsonse (7 working days is a safe bet)
c) The date and price you paid for the car along with the reg no. & finance agreement no.
d) When the faults occured and what they were
e) The dates they were rectified and what work was carried out
f) How long you have been without transport
g) Costs Incurred by yourself due to these faults
h) Proof of all of the above
i) The expected course of action to make you happy

See what they do to the letter as am sure you will get some response and very importantly keep it civil as hard as it comes accross...

Not a nice situation to be in especially with a new car so feel for your problems (should ahve bought one from me :) ).
 
TheNissanMan said:
a) The Dealership Principal of the dealership where you bought the car.
b) If part of a chain the complaints department
b) The Finance House Customer Services Team
c) Merc UK Head Office

In the letter state:

a) The recipients of the letter
b) The date by which you want a repsonse (7 working days is a safe bet)
c) The date and price you paid for the car along with the reg no. & finance agreement no.
d) When the faults occured and what they were
e) The dates they were rectified and what work was carried out
f) How long you have been without transport
g) Costs Incurred by yourself due to these faults
h) Proof of all of the above
i) The expected course of action to make you happy

See what they do to the letter as am sure you will get some response and very importantly keep it civil as hard as it comes accross...
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This is pretty much exactly what I've done. I'll explain in more detail.

2 weeks ago I spoke to the Citizens Advice Bureau who explained to me that I clearly had the right to reject the vehicle as not fit for purpose, due to the re-occuring faults, and numerous visits to the dealership to allow them satisfactory resolution, but failure on their part to do so.

I was informed that the law specifies, in the case of a HP agreement or similar, that the issue should be raised, and dealt with by the creditors. In this case Mercedes Benz finance, and that I should write to them immediately outlining my wishes and my intention to reject the vehicle.

I posted the letter recorded delivery, 2 weeks ago, specifying a response was required within 7days. I got a letter response from MB finance 3 days later, sent 2nd class, stating that customer support deal with these issues, and would be in touch as soon as possible to assist with my complaint. I let it go to 10 days since I sent my letter, and called customer support, who had no record of my complaint, no copy of my letter, and no instruction to raise a complaint or call me to discuss. Customer Support informed me that Mercedes Benz require you to contact the principle dealership in writing to express an intention to reject a car, they assured me I had been told correctly that the contract is with the creditors, MB Finance, and that I was given the correct information that they should deal with it, however, it's MB's policy to go to the dealership.

Ok, so I hand delivered a copy of the letter to the sales manager at the dealership that day, this time, stating that I would be delivering the vehicle to the dealership on the 1st March and expect it to be resolved. I specified in these letters that I am rejecting the car, and as such I am also expecting my £1000 deposit and £195 agreement fee refunded, as I am not happy to be at any financial loss due to these poor product and service I had endured.

To this I got no response, no call, no email, no acknowledgement again....nothing.

So as the 1st March is tomorrow, I called the sales manager at 5:15pm today, to say I trust that everything is ok for them to take delivery of the car tomorrow as I hadn't heard otherwise. The response I got was that he was waiting to hear from a solicitor who was in discussion with Mercedes. I questioned him, saying that I know I'm within my legal right to reject this vehicle, and you that they had no grounds to deny it. He said that they were going to try and get me a new replacement vehicle. Which is NOT what I asked for, and not what I want. I have no faith in these vehicles or the quality of their products or services.

I then asked what documentation I need to bring tomorrow, he said you can bring your car down to store it whilst we deal with it "if that's how I want to deal with things"...as in until they replace the car for me or try and say they're not going to take it back. I said I'm not getting anywhere here, I'm bringing the car back tomorrow, along with the paperwork and log book. He just kept saying "ok" to everything I said after that. Absolute ****

So really....what do I do now?...Do I try and corner the guy into saying they'll take the car back? Is it really his decision or not? Am I going to achieve anything in taking it there? If I don't take it back now am I going to look like I'm not serious? Or do I just go there, drop the stuff onto his desk and tell him to contact me when they're decided how they want to pay back my deposit?

I really don't know how to handle this to be honest.

Thanks so far everyone :help:
 
I'm trying to find something on line about a guy who had a similar complaint, it was either against MB or Landrover. He had something to the effect of "this garage sold me a broken car and they won't fix it, do not buy from them" stickered all over the car and then parked it on the street outside the garage. Nothing the garage could do about it. It was in Chester, probably nearly 10 yrs ago, but can't fnd anything on it. A bit extreme, but think it worked!
 
I would speak to the Dealer Principal not the Sales Manger, he'll have a lot more clout and you'll know he'll know the full story
 
lawrie29 said:
I'm trying to find something on line about a guy who had a similar complaint, it was either against MB or Landrover. He had something to the effect of "this garage sold me a broken car and they won't fix it, do not buy from them" stickered all over the car and then parked it on the street outside the garage. Nothing the garage could do about it. It was in Chester, probably nearly 10 yrs ago, but can't fnd anything on it. A bit extreme, but think it worked!
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The I like :)
 
Best bet, go to the local press and get the story on FB, twitter and the like. Better still, park on a public road outside the garage and have a big sign saying do not buy a merc as yours has had x faults. I am sure that bad publicity will soon get some action.
 
lawrie29 said:
I'm trying to find something on line about a guy who had a similar complaint, it was either against MB or Landrover. He had something to the effect of "this garage sold me a broken car and they won't fix it, do not buy from them" stickered all over the car and then parked it on the street outside the garage. Nothing the garage could do about it. It was in Chester, probably nearly 10 yrs ago, but can't fnd anything on it. A bit extreme, but think it worked!
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This?
 
It sounds to me like this:

  • If the car is on HP, your contract is with the HP company and not the Mercedes dealership - so the HP company is the one to go after legally since they've supplied you with unsatisfactory goods.

  • If the car was bought outright by you (not on HP), then the Sale of Goods Act comes into play and the dealership is responsible.
 
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The Sale of Goods act is applicable in either case, but yes that's exactly how it is.

Somehow Mercedes think its ok to do their own thing then? And not comply with UK law.

Customer support refered me to the dealership as I said, even though they agreed that legally its mb finance that should deal with it.

It seems to me to be a highly effective and well practiced dodge technique, yet another way to lead the unhappy customer in circles.

Whole things really frustrating me now
 
Is this a Mecedes owned garage or a MB dealership ie: Lancaster?
 
It's Mercedes Benz of Bishops Stortford,owned by L&L Automotive I believe.
 
Go to a solicitor. Get them to write a formal rejection letter to Mercedes Finance and to the Mercedes Dealership.

In addition write to Mercedes Benz customer service which for the UK market is located in Holland! Explain that you are formally rejecting the car as unfit for purpose; that because you have lost confidence in the car you are seeking a full refund plus costs and that if it is not resolved within seven days you reserve the right to take further action which will include filing a County Court claim and ensuring that the appropriate media services are made fully aware of the poor level of service by Mercedes Benz.
 
Mahoneyd187 said:
The Sale of Goods act is applicable in either case, but yes that's exactly how it is.

Somehow Mercedes think its ok to do their own thing then? And not comply with UK law.

Customer support refered me to the dealership as I said, even though they agreed that legally its mb finance that should deal with it.

It seems to me to be a highly effective and well practiced dodge technique, yet another way to lead the unhappy customer in circles.

Whole things really frustrating me now
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I'd tell the finance company (whoever they are) that you intend to go after them legally if they don't sort it out pronto - i.e. replace the car with a brand new one.

I had a similar thing once and (via a solicitor) went after the HP company straight away, whereupon they caved in.
 
Danny, I think you're going to need proper legal advice on this. As tempting as it is to dump the car outside their showroom it's unlikely to spur them into action and it leaves you without the car and still liable for the payments.

Checkout the HonestJohn forum (he's the Daily Telegraph guy). There is a legal section on their "back room" and it gets picked up by a lawyer that specialises in the motor industry and who offers some free advice. http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/threads.htm?f=12
 
If you go anywhere near the dealership, take a witness and if possible record any conversation. I think going for the finance company through a solicitor is your best bet though (at once) the more time you take, the longer they have your money.
 
Best left in your solicitors hands, there is a world of difference in dealing with a memeber of the general public and a qualified legal person. If I were you I would present a list of everything thats gone on and the action you have already taken to your solicitor. The solicitor has more clout with the more information they have.

Realspeed
 
I'm not in a position to afford a solicitor I don't think... :(
 
I had a serious problem getting my deeds to my property having paid the final installment. The company concerned were to say the least very reluctant to hand the deeds over and did exactly the same thing as your experiencing, passing from one to another.
In the end I contacted by phone the Daily Mail and was put in touch with their consumers affairs person . I said I was getting nowhere with the customer service of Sun Life and his reply was he didn't deal with the little people he could go much higher.

I don't know what he did but the next day I had the deeds delivered by personal courier, so he must have kicked someones arse very high up.

Maybe this is a route worth taking?

Realspeed
 
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Yeah I think that sounds like a reasonable approach. I'll keep the car at my address for now and go the media route.

Papers, local papers, watchdog....any other ideas?

It's 1st March today...new reg....lots of new customers at Mercedes. So tempted to cause a scene its unreal
 
Go to one of the big National papers not a local paper they would I think have more influence. No company wants to be named and shamed in the national press.

Realspeed
 
Mahoneyd187 said:
I'm not in a position to afford a solicitor I don't think... :(
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If you can afford a Merc you can afford a solicitor - and in any event I would recover your costs from the finance company.

There is no point chasing the wrong party here, if your contract is with the finance company then pursue them.
 
Correct, I just spoke with consumer direct again and they reiterated that the finance company should be dealing with it, and directing me to the dealership is essentially a fob off. The dealership have no legal responsibility to me, the obligation, and my rights enforcable by UK law, are with the finance company.

I will be writing to MB Finance again, with the threat of legal action if I do not receive a satisfactory response within 7 days.

Thanks for all your help guys, I'll let you know how I get on.

PS - Never....EVER....buy a Mercedes Benz
 
simonw said:
If you can afford a Merc you can afford a solicitor
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Mahoneyd187 said:
I have a 2010 Mercedes Benz Smart Car fortwo coupe CDI.
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smart_fortwo_coupe_cdi_passion_2dr_softouch_auto_2010_92823153798261896.jpg


;)
 
Out of interest, what are the faults? The severity of them will probably determine whether you have any chance of rejecting the car. Even if they do agree to take your car back and you won't accept a similar age car in replacement it's more than likely they'll only offer you the car's market value, which could be a fair bit less than you've paid......
 
simonw said:
A new car's a new car, the cost of a solicitor is tiny against the cost of the car - esp if by employing one you get your money back or a new car.
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Context = a small two-seater Smart car on finance.
That doesn't equate to 'bags of money' to afford a solicitor.
 
gramps said:
Context = a small two-seater Smart car on finance.
That doesn't equate to 'bags of money' to afford a solicitor.
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Well it's a total commitment of £10,500 and if it goes to court, I will win, and Mercedes will have to cover all costs incurred which include a solicitor, so I see what he means.

I've just drafted a letter based on my conversation with consumer direct this morning, I'm giving them 7days to reach a satisfactory outcome, or I will be initiating legal proceedings against them, as well as "raising awareness in the public of my poor treatment through all media avenues"
 
realspeed said:
Go to one of the big National papers not a local paper they would I think have more influence. No company wants to be named and shamed in the national press.

Realspeed
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+100....;)
I'v spent 2 months talking the wife into one of these, No changed my mind, say with Ford I think..:-)
 
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