Learn with MD Lesson No 1 "Thoughts please"

Nice example Matt.. Glad you had time to do one..




If anyone would like to give a few things that they have learnt from this feel free.

It would be interesting to see what others got out of this exercise....




" I am off to write out the next one as I might not be about tomorrow night."

MD
 
To be honest I didn't think I would learn that much from this first lesson. Having played around with the aperture following various tutorials and magazine articles. But it really has made me think more about a lot of things.

I think the biggest thing I will take from this lesson is considering my focus point, I think it may have been Hoppy who first mentioned in this thread (If I'm wrong I apologise, too many pages to read back through) that not only does the DOF extend behind the focal point but also in front of it. This was something that I actually knew before but hadn't really put much thought to it when taking shots.
So hopefully from now on this will be another thing that I consider when setting up a shot. :thumbs:
 
being a total noob with a Canon :0) Ooops..

I learned allot...

- How to quickly change settings on my 550D in M Mode
- The vast shutter speed difference from F22 to F2.8
- IS Really does helps with longer Shutter speeds
- The colours appear brighter and the image sharper on the 2.8

looking forward to the next :0)
 
YellowMonster21 said:
being a total noob with a Canon :0) Ooops..

I learned allot...

- How to quickly change settings on my 550D in M Mode
- The vast shutter speed difference from F22 to F2.8
- IS Really does helps with longer Shutter speeds
- The colours appear brighter and the image sharper on the 2.8

looking forward to the next :0)
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It's even quicker to change f/numbers on Av mode ;) On you last point, colours should not appear brighter or the image sharper at f/2.8. Are you sure you didn't under expose with the high f/number? Easily done on M.
 
My shots didn't look a huge amount different but other peoples did and it was interesting to see the differences. It showed me I need more practice on manual mode.

It was a bit distracting having the experienced togs discussing advanced stuff on the thread.
 
Who's saying about late? There's always one.......

... so last night I went out as I had rememberd. I fired of waaaaaaaaay too many shots to get this one right. 1st thing I leaned is that at really small apertures (F32) you really need to crank the ISO up to get a shot of wild flowers blowing about in the wind. How many blurry shots did I have????

Any way, using my 18-200 VR I can up with the following two pairs for comparison:

Pair one


1/1000 F3.5 18mm ISO 800


1/80 F36 95mm ISO Hi 6400


Pair Two


1/4000 F3.5 18mm ISO 3200


1/125 F22 18mm ISO 3200

So, what did I learn? I found out I can go to F36 when the lens focal length is 95mm or above, although this requires a massive ISO with lots of Noise to get the shot.

At small apertures, it appears very easy to under expose. I have no access to my laptop which is 250 miles away so I cannot adjust anything in lightroom for example so all these shots are Straight OOC with no editing. The smaller aperture, obviously has the greater DOF, however, the images don't seem as vibrant. Is that part of the trade off?? I dunno, maybe someone can tell me.

K
 
ka$h said:
Who's saying about late? There's always one.......

... so last night I went out as I had rememberd. I fired of waaaaaaaaay too many shots to get this one right. 1st thing I leaned is that at really small apertures (F32) you really need to crank the ISO up to get a shot of wild flowers blowing about in the wind. How many blurry shots did I have????

Any way, using my 18-200 VR I can up with the following two pairs for comparison:

<snip>

So, what did I learn? I found out I can go to F36 when the lens focal length is 95mm or above, although this requires a massive ISO with lots of Noise to get the shot.

At small apertures, it appears very easy to under expose. I have no access to my laptop which is 250 miles away so I cannot adjust anything in lightroom for example so all these shots are Straight OOC with no editing. The smaller aperture, obviously has the greater DOF, however, the images don't seem as vibrant. Is that part of the trade off?? I dunno, maybe someone can tell me.

K
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Your exposures should not be different at high f/numbers (small aperture). The shutter speed/ISO should be adjusted to compensate. That raises other issues like shake/blur/tripod etc, but not exposure.

It may be that your lens aperture is not closing down accurately at very small openings. It's a tiny hole and slight mechanical innaccuracy can throw it out.

Your high f/number images probably don't look as vibrant due to diffraction, which has been touched upon earlier. It really hits hard above f/16 on a crop format camera. Thinking about it, this might also be the problem that Yellow Monster got in post #163.
 
tdodd said:
Given the valid remarks about the discussion becoming a bit technical, if I can make an observation about this thread, I don't think the opening post actually made it terribly clear quite what the scope of the topic was and, just what the learning experience was intended to be. That's not a criticism, but I think it is easy enough to understand that a simple question can lead to a complex answer, and from that point things just escalate quite quickly.

I assume the aim of the thread was to introduce DOF, but in so doing it has raised several things and they in turn have lead to other discussions. While that is all good, I can see how quickly the thread can lose the plot and become unwieldy and confusing. For eaxmple, the instructions were to shoot at two apertures and note the other alterations required to the camera settings and also the outcome in the image. Well, let's look at the results so far....

Changing aperture has an impact on DOF. It also has an impact on one or more of shutter speed, ISO, lighting. In addition it can raise questions about lens IQ and also diffraction. Since most of that is wrapped up in the topic of exposure, this could easily lead on to other things like exposure accuracy, metering, optimising exposure, exposing for raw vs JPEG. Ouch!

Shutter speed has consequences for shake and blur and raises questions about tripods, image stabilisation and acceptable shutter speeds related to focal length.

Changing ISO has an impact on noise, but it is not a straightforward impact, since ISO alone is not the reason for noise.

There are probably further consequences too - at one point we got side tracked into talking about filters, and then there was the comment about choosing/adjusting focal point depending on DOF.

Of course, while there are some broad brush rules about DOF, like stopping down increases it, there is much more to it than that, influenced by camera format, focal length, subject distance, aperture, final viewing size and final viewing distance.

All in all it's quite a massive subject, with all manner of inter-related consequences when you make just one small change to something. Going forward, I'm not sure what the best way might be to constrain each thread to the learning point that was intended, but perhaps a little more clarity on the goals and scope of each thread, set out at the beginning might help.
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As a relative newbie who is learning the technical aspects quickly so that I can then concentrate on the subject and composition with a good chance of getting good results I think it is good that the different aspects, complexities and problems are pointed out.

I've been reading up and experimenting with many of the points mentioned (hyperfocal distance etc) and whilst I think they would justify being future topics for lessons in themselves and there is no need to digress into full technical details that take the thread away from its main point, touching on and introducing them is a good thing.

Newcomers (such as me) do need to know that photography isn't simple, there is lots to consider and we can't expect to get great results straight away. It is also helpful to know that the reason we might get an unexpectedly poor result might well be something we haven't even heard about let alone understood. I am finding that just knowing this can help with retaining sanity at times!
 
Dan1502 said:
As a relative newbie who is learning the technical aspects quickly so that I can then concentrate on the subject and composition with a good chance of getting good results I think it is good that the different aspects, complexities and problems are pointed out.

Newcomers (such as me) do need to know that photography isn't simple, there is lots to consider and we can't expect to get great results straight away. It is also helpful to know that the reason we might get an unexpectedly poor result might well be something we haven't even heard about let alone understood. I am finding that just knowing this can help with retaining sanity at times!
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Here Here :thumbs:
 
Dan1502 said:
As a relative newbie who is learning the technical aspects quickly so that I can then concentrate on the subject and composition with a good chance of getting good results I think it is good that the different aspects, complexities and problems are pointed out.

I've been reading up and experimenting with many of the points mentioned (hyperfocal distance etc) and whilst I think they would justify being future topics for lessons in themselves and there is no need to digress into full technical details that take the thread away from its main point, touching on and introducing them is a good thing.

Newcomers (such as me) do need to know that photography isn't simple, there is lots to consider and we can't expect to get great results straight away. It is also helpful to know that the reason we might get an unexpectedly poor result might well be something we haven't even heard about let alone understood. I am finding that just knowing this can help with retaining sanity at times!
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I can see both sides and they are equally valid, and I don't have too many answers!

The problem is that for every effect there is a knock-on effect. For example, when you close down the aperture to f/22 to demonstrate the change in depth of field, you immediately and inevitably get a very long shutter speed.

That presents problems with camera shake and subject movement, which people have noticed in their images and have asked about. There's another one too, and that's diffraction at f/22, and again that has been raised as a question by posters.

It's difficult to say we're not going to address those questions because they're off topic. And actually, they are not off topic - you cannot avoid them with an excercise like this :shrug:
 
HoppyUK said:
I can see both sides and they are equally valid, and I don't have too many answers!

The problem is that for every effect there is a knock-on effect. For example, when you close down the aperture to f/22 to demonstrate the change in depth of field, you immediately and inevitably get a very long shutter speed.

That presents problems with camera shake and subject movement, which people have noticed in their images and have asked about. There's another one too, and that's diffraction at f/22, and again that has been raised as a question by posters.

It's difficult to say we're not going to address those questions because they're off topic. And actually, they are not off topic - you cannot avoid them with an excercise like this :shrug:
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All true of course... but...

The point of MD's thread (however poorly set out ;)) was for total newbies to start to explore what various bits of the camera do, then start to see where you might use such features, then look at the associated consequences later

I feel the techies just jumped in too soon and went too far too fast for MD's original concept, people hadn't even posted their shots before some were taking it to an advanced level

It seemed to me like someone was on their first driving lesson taking their first corner and 3 back-seat drivers were discussing how to kill understeer - worthy extension of the subject, just too far too fast

2p rolls steadily by :D

DD
 
I'm agreeing with you both. Personally I find the full technical details very useful. However I think for those in the know to point out the issue, briefly explain what it means (as some of you have eloquently done) then perhaps deal with it fully in a separate lesson would be a good approach. Regarding diffraction for instance, to know in the main it is likely to be an issue from f16 onwards and and cetainly by f22 and that up to f11 is safe ground is useful. It's also useful to know there are exceptions. That's probably sufficient for me to know for now. Hyperfocal distance again can be (and has been) briefly introduced but could itself be a later lesson.

When decided to take photography more seriously I hadn't realised just how complex the technical aspects are and for every question that is answered I generally end up with more. I think if we keep each lesson focussed but relevant related issues are highlighted and briefly summarised, perhaps with links to further reading for those who want to then all should be well (for me at least!).
 
Sorry to those that had asked about the border, I have only just popped back into the thread, hope you have the answers you need now. I will pay more attention in future.

mark
 
All I am trying to do is help people to try and do different things with their cameras.;)

If we all do the same things people wont feel silly " safety in numbers" Most people will learn more by using their camera trying to get from the 1st photo to the second.

I know I dont explian things well But i am at least trying ..


MD:shrug:
 
..MD.. said:
All I am trying to do is help people to try and do different things with their cameras.;)
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And it's appreciated. I'm looking forward to lesson 2 and will try not to screw things up this time. :)
 
tdodd said:
And it's appreciated. I'm looking forward to lesson 2 and will try not to screw things up this time. :)
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Tim your help is great matey..:thumbs:


Lesson no2 is up and running


MD:thumbs:
 
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