Lay off the police!

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wonderer

wonderer

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Hey all

Not been here for a while so was just browsing as you do and was shocked by how many threads there are in relation to the police and section 44 etc etc.
I have had a lengthy and fruitless discussion on another website about this and reading through some of the threads on here has only enforced my belief that people are far to quick to judge.
All the photographers that i have communcated with throwing accusations at the police base their entire opinions on these new stories that you hear or read about......and thats it!
Since when did we take the medias word as gospel?

I am NOT saying that there are police officers out there who do not abuse the law themselves and this is a problem which needs to be dealt with.However its at a point now where people are ignoring the fact that the police are their to do a job and MUST act on their own suspicians.

I am coming at this from a very personal perspective.I am a photographer(hobby) and my partner is a police officer.

I promise you the last thing she wants to do is arrest a photographer for taking a photo.She has vastly more important things to be doing.But if she suspects something,she will challenge it.It is what is expected of her.

The police have always had an uphill struggle in regards to relationships with the general public,not helped by ther fact that you will ONLY ever hear of negative stories involving the police.Trust me,for every 10 second youtube clip you see or "nasty policeman took my camera away" story you read there are a thousand heartwarming stories about the police you will never hear of.

Im just asking people to think "hey,maybe there is more to this story that what i just saw/read" :shake:
 
MagicMynx said:
Section 44 has been deemed illegal anyway, so with all due respect, it doesn't matter anymore. :shrug:
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Agree to a point but its peoples opinions that need to change,as well as the law!

Thats a harder fight to win.
 
The thing is though, of all the "the police took my camera away" storys that you hear, how many of them sound like the police are just using their power just for the hell of it?

I have an Asian friend who was taking landscape photos on a motorway bridge and was escorted away by transport police because they suspected him of terrorism. I have a white English friend in his late 60's who was asked to leave when taking photos of buildings at Salford Quays. I have heard many other storys of people asked not to use their camera because of the threat of terrorism. It's completely wrong.

I can understand the police asking questions and being curious but far too often then seem to lack any common sense. [comment removed]
 
Unfortunately your partner's attitude is not reflected in the statistics for section 44 stops - over 100,000 stops using this act were made in London alone last year!

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=868495

And as other people have noted the misuse of these powers by lazy and incompetent policemen may lead to the abandonment of a legitimate method of combatting TRUE terrorism!

EDIT:

"2007/2008 – 108,012 searches / 65 arrests for terrorism"

http://db.riskwaters.com/global/bjp/notacrime/index_foi.html

That statistic alone shows how much some police forces are abusing this act.
 
I have never had issue with the police, it is usually down to how the individual approaches them. And you can be fairly sure the people who are more aggressive towards the police are the same ones who write walloftext blog posts about it (Obviously with some exceptions).

Maybe the police should be a bit more proactive in maintaining their own reputation. Sure, there are many positive stories you don't hear but that is the same for any service providing organisation - they will always be judged by the bad stuff you hear about. They key is not asking people to look for the positive, but learn how to reduce the negatives.
 
I agree, obviously you can't tar all officers with the same brush, but equally peoples opinions of photographers need to change too! Including police officers, security guards and the public. Street photography is completely legal and no-one should have the right to challenge you.

Does anyone honestly believe that terrorists would plan an attack by taking photos with an SLR?
 
-Rob- said:
The thing is though, of all the "the police took my camera away" storys that you hear, how many of them sound like the police are just using their power just for the hell of it?

I have an Asian friend who was taking landscape photos on a motorway bridge and was escorted away by transport police because they suspected him of terrorism. I have a white English friend in his late 60's who was asked to leave when taking photos of buildings at Salford Quays. I have heard many other storys of people asked not to use their camera because of the threat of terrorism. It's completely wrong.

I can understand the police asking questions and being curious but far too often then seem to lack any common sense [comment removed] .
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Thats is the exact attitude im talking about.My partner has a lot of common sense thank you.
You also hit the nail on the head when you said sounds like. Sounds to me like you are jumping to conclusions no?
 
wonderer said:
Hey all

Not been here for a while so was just browsing as you do and was shocked by how many threads there are in relation to the police and section 44 etc etc.
....

I promise you the last thing she wants to do is arrest a photographer for taking a photo.She has vastly more important things to be doing.But if she suspects something,she will challenge it.It is what is expected of her.

I agree, if she has grounds for suspicion, however s44 gives the right to stop and search within certain areas, such as Greater London!, without reason.

Im just asking people to think "hey,maybe there is more to this story that what i just saw/read"

Absolutely, some time ago I started viewing the media as part of the entertainment industry.
:shake:
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Where is that damn popcorn smiley when you need it?
 
i've had varied experience with the police and as a group there should be a constant however some have been polite but the majority have been rude and playing the authoritarian "big man"

no humility and respect for others

unfortunately i can only judge the police on my experiences which i'd say are 30% good and 60% poor and 10% bad
 
And just suppose an officer did not follow up a suspician which resulted in the loss of life.The same people would be back on here attacking them for different reasons.

Like a poster in another forum stated.A terrorist is going to look like anyone of us.Get over the steriotypical image of a terrorist.

As for over 100,000 stops.Thatis truly nothing when you consider just how many people are out there taking photos everyday.

Personally im one of the 'if you do nothing wrong you got nothing to worry about ' brigade.
 
alexkidd said:
i've had varied experience with the police and as a group there should be a constant however some have been polite but the majority have been rude and playing the authoritarian "big man"

no humility and respect for others

unfortunately i can only judge the police on my experiences which i'd say are 30% good and 60% poor and 10% bad
Click to expand...


You must of had quite a few experiences with the poli9ce to make up percentages.
 
I agree we need to respect the police, i hate it when i see parents slagging off the police to their children and the consequences of what that brings.

I do enjoy our freedom though and in the name of terror and media hype the country has become very paranoid and we are not as free as we once were. as per the figures above there has been a ridiculous amounts of official stop and searches relating to s44, that in its self isnt helping the publics relationship with the police.

All the best to your partner I appreciate its not easy.
 
I promise you the last thing she wants to do is arrest a photographer for taking a photo.She has vastly more important things to be doing.But if she suspects something,she will challenge it.It is what is expected of her.
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But what makes her suspect a photographer?

Race?
He has a big camera?
He is taking pictures legally of a public building?

Now I don't say that I know all that is going on but the stops the press really publicise are all white males going about their business.

I would have thought there would be much more impact if there were reports of "foreign looking johnnies" taking discreet pictures but can only recall one recently in the press.
 
I've wrote to the police following an assault ( battery more correctly ) by airport security staff at Manchester. Their answer was that they would take no action despite the facts. One word that comes to mind is jobsworth but I don't think it quite fits in this instance.
 
wonderer said:
Hey all

Not been here for a while so was just browsing as you do and was shocked by how many threads there are in relation to the police and section 44 etc etc.
I have had a lengthy and fruitless discussion on another website about this and reading through some of the threads on here has only enforced my belief that people are far to quick to judge.
All the photographers that i have communcated with throwing accusations at the police base their entire opinions on these new stories that you hear or read about......and thats it!
Since when did we take the medias word as gospel?
Click to expand...

Acutally, I've never used a newspaper story to back up my claims of s.44 stops...since i've had 2 stops personally. Both pointless, both time-wasting, both "illegal" and both rude, accusing police officers who ignored my perfectly polite offer to show my UK Press Card which is supposedly recognised as a form of ID by the Association of Chief Police Officers.

I am NOT saying that there are police officers out there who do not abuse the law themselves and this is a problem which needs to be dealt with.However its at a point now where people are ignoring the fact that the police are their to do a job and MUST act on their own suspicians.

I am coming at this from a very personal perspective.I am a photographer(hobby) and my partner is a police officer.

I promise you the last thing she wants to do is arrest a photographer for taking a photo.She has vastly more important things to be doing.But if she suspects something,she will challenge it.It is what is expected of her.
Click to expand...

And if she wasnt doing that, then i'd ask if she was doing her job properly...however...WHY does she suspect a photographer in the first place?

I would agree that if someone suspicious is snooping around, then at the very least a PC should be asking why they're there...but to me photography is not a suspicious activity...and when did it become one for the Police?

The police have always had an uphill struggle in regards to relationships with the general public,not helped by ther fact that you will ONLY ever hear of negative stories involving the police.Trust me,for every 10 second youtube clip you see or "nasty policeman took my camera away" story you read there are a thousand heartwarming stories about the police you will never hear of.

Im just asking people to think "hey,maybe there is more to this story that what i just saw/read" :shake:
Click to expand...

Exactly...people should be encouraged to do their own research. I'm not suggesting everyone goes out and tries to experience a s.44 Stop and Search for themselves, but the police in general are extremely helpful IF you deal with them correctly. It's unfortunate though, that our hobby/profession seems to have been tarred by those in authority just as much as the media has tarred the Police.

I'm immediately eyed with suspicion for having a camera out in the street...either accusing stares from parents if i'm anywhere near children, or questions from police officers if i'm a public place (ie. covering a news story).

Unfortunately, the more you slap restrictions (either actual or perceived) on someone, the more they will resent and rebel. Your partner will probably be able to tell you numerous stories of people who have repeatedly been arrested/caught/stopped doing something naughty, and the more you do it, the more they get peeved.

There are times when the s.44 and s.76 stuff, as well as "kettling" and other public controls, the suggestion that "you lot should all go away for 20mins or else" (The Riot Act - given to togs -including colleagues and myself at the G20 protests in April/May) seems incessant, and naturally those of us who come up against it day after day do get quite tired of it.
 
nuttyboy78 said:
Where is that damn popcorn smiley when you need it?
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Removed from the list for the very reason you want to use it now :nono:

I've removed a couple of unnecessary comments from this thread. Lets keep it civilised and polite or the padlock will go on.
 
Grendel said:
Removed from the list for the very reason you want to use it now :nono:

I've removed a couple of unnecessary comments from this thread. Lets keep it civilised and polite or the padlock will go on
Click to expand...

I know you have and for what reason. That was meant to be funny for that exact same reason. :)
 
Grendel said:
Removed from the list for the very reason you want to use it now :nono:

I've removed a couple of unnecessary comments from this thread. Lets keep it civilised and polite or the padlock will go on.
Click to expand...

nuttyboy78 said:
I know you have and for what reason. That was meant to be funny for that exact same reason. :)
Click to expand...

No reason required - s44 :D
 
Anyone else getting bored of all this now? Cops feel hard done by as they feel they are doing their job, photographers feel hard done by when the get stopped.

Its a lose lose situation for all involved. even with the whole S44 being deemed illeagal, this argument will rage on without parties ever reaching an agreement.

I say we just get on with enjoying our hobby and get out there taking pictures instead of arguing about this all the time.
 
:plusone:

:thankyou:
 
wonderer said:
And just suppose an officer did not follow up a suspician which resulted in the loss of life.The same people would be back on here attacking them for different reasons.

Like a poster in another forum stated.A terrorist is going to look like anyone of us.Get over the steriotypical image of a terrorist.

As for over 100,000 stops.Thatis truly nothing when you consider just how many people are out there taking photos everyday.

Personally im one of the 'if you do nothing wrong you got nothing to worry about ' brigade.
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I think all photographers are still waiting for any proven evidence of any photographic material used in the planning of a terrorit act.

Why aren't the police stopping everybody with a bag?

I've only had 1 chat with a police officer regarding photography and he was very polite.

In my opinion a friendly chat by an experienced officer is all that is required.
 
PsiFox said:
But what makes her suspect a photographer?
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jamesb84 said:
WHY does she suspect a photographer in the first place?
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What makes you think she suspects photographers? Nothing in the OP's posts say their partner stops togs, just that if something suspicious is seen then collars get felt...

"But if she suspects something,she will challenge it..." were the words used, no? Where there does it mention photographers?

Arthur

PS - in an emotive subject like this, don't try to play the "implied" card, not going to work.
 
Obviously there is no way i can explain why a police officer would stop someone taking photos.And notice how i said someone.It is not just photographers that get stopped but anyone.
Also people forget that when someone is arrested it involves a stupid amount of paperwork and the officer involved actually has to give a REASON why they made the arrest.Going back to the statin and saying "they were taking photos in a funny way" will not work. A valid reason is nessasary.

"Everyone hates the police until you need them".An officer told me that a while back and it could not be more true.
 
Obviously a very emotive subject with both sides holding their ground.

My own experiences with the Police have been mixed, but I try not to let that prejudice me. There is obviously a lot of truth in the arguements made by both sides and people's feelings run high when they see injustice.

Sadly, in all walks of life, and the Police are no exception, there are those that seize any power given to them and overuse it. It is these people that are giving the Police a bad name. It's no good saying the public should be tolerant of these people. The Police force should deal with their own housekeeping effectively. Those that uphold the law should demonstrate a fair use of that power.

Equally, it is human nature to seize the slightest departure from what we view as acceptable and broadcast it. This is happening to the Police and maybe we should all be a little more circumspect before making comment. Sometimes the facts are not what the media publicise. They do not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Finally, maybe the law needs reviewing. Some of these laws met great opposition before becomming law. Maybe clearer guidelines need to be laid down. What concerns me most is the entire legal system in this country rejected the arguements made in the recent case but the Euorpean Court of Human Rights upheld the case. Maybe we should look at the jusctice system a little closer.

Overall, I believe it is for the establishment to put it's house in order first and then seek to win back the populance. During this time maybe we should all take a step back and seek the real facts before jumping in.

There is always middle ground somewhere, if you seek it.

Ken
 
Rob.Marsh said:
Its a lose lose situation for all involved. even with the whole S44 being deemed illeagal, this argument will rage on without parties ever reaching an agreement.

I say we just get on with enjoying our hobby and get out there taking pictures instead of arguing about this all the time.
Click to expand...

:thumbs:
 
hey they are not all bad i just walk outside my works and took several shots of the police traffic operation going on and one is of a police car parked the wrong way in a one way street..... and no one said anything
 
Ambermile said:
What makes you think she suspects photographers? Nothing in the OP's posts say their partner stops togs, just that if something suspicious is seen then collars get felt...

"But if she suspects something,she will challenge it..." were the words used, no? Where there does it mention photographers?

Arthur

PS - in an emotive subject like this, don't try to play the "implied" card, not going to work.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was guilty of "tarring all with one brush" there...I would gladly revise my statement to:

jamesb84 said:
WHY do the police suspect a photographer in the first place?
Click to expand...

I entirely agree with the suggestion that suspicious persons should "get their collars felt"...however, I fail to see why a person taking a photo should be considered a "suspicious person".
 
Ambermile said:
What makes you think she suspects photographers? Nothing in the OP's posts say their partner stops togs, just that if something suspicious is seen then collars get felt...

"But if she suspects something,she will challenge it..." were the words used, no? Where there does it mention photographers?

Arthur

PS - in an emotive subject like this, don't try to play the "implied" card, not going to work.
Click to expand...

First sentence in my quote from OP

I promise you the last thing she wants to do is arrest a photographer for taking a photo.
Click to expand...

Phototographers mentioned in other parts of the post too. I don't see any mention of naked ramblers and trainspotters, and, last time I looked this was a photography forum:)
 
wonderer said:
As for over 100,000 stops.That is truly nothing when you consider just how many people are out there taking photos everyday.
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The point is though that photographers shouldn't be included in those 100,000 stops at all. Has it ever been proven that terrorists can be found on the streets of London (and other locations) with a DSLR and a tripod? I doubt there are many parts of the world that can't be found on google images so if a terrorist wanted a photo he doesn't need a camera to get one. The whole tactic of finding terrorists by questioning the motives of photographers seems completely flawed.

wonderer said:
Personally im one of the 'if you do nothing wrong you got nothing to worry about' brigade.
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The police don't think like that though do they? A photographer in a public place taking photos legally can still get questioned and asked to move on by the police who have no real reason to suspect the photographer is doing anything wrong. I refer you back to my previous comment that has since been removed but I still stand behind.
 
People are in general saying it is wrong to ASSUME someone taking photos is a terrorist but is not also wrong to assume they are not?

Unfortunately that is the world we live in.

I just wonder how many nay sayers would look over there shoulder,see a man photographing their kids in the street and happily assume they are just candid street togs?

People are naturally suspicious.I was in London the other day and realised i was checking people out on the tube thinking "whats in your bag" ?

Like i said.World we live in now.
 
It's a bit more than section 44 though isn't it. This is just another symptom of the general public's loss of confidence in the police force. I think it started with speed cameras, excessive paperwork meaning less coppers on the beat and the move to response teams rather than beat officers.

It's just been a steady loss of confidence in the police over the last say ten years rather than one incident.

The met haven't exactly helped themselves recently with a number of negative cases. Institutionalised racism, protests march kettling and assaults, shooting innocent people in tube trains and walthemstow houses, just to name a few off the top of my head.

The IPCC themselves stated there was a significant rise of something like 25% against the Met Police last year. As the biggest (or most public) police force, these do tend to have a knock on effect.
 
wonderer said:
People are in general saying it is wrong to ASSUME someone taking photos is a terrorist but is not also wrong to assume they are not?
Click to expand...
Actually the English legal system is based around the principle of 'innocent until proved guilty' so if a photographer is just taking photos then why not assume they are just taking photos?
 
wonderer said:
People are in general saying it is wrong to ASSUME someone taking photos is a terrorist but is not also wrong to assume they are not?

Unfortunately that is the world we live in.

I just wonder how many nay sayers would look over there shoulder,see a man photographing their kids in the street and happily assume they are just candid street togs?

People are naturally suspicious.I was in London the other day and realised i was checking people out on the tube thinking "whats in your bag" ?

Like i said.World we live in now.
Click to expand...

So are we now talking about photographers as paedophiles AND terrorists?
 
hell guys give plod a break...after all he is bringing his crime figures down by targeting us hard core offenders.."photographers/motorists".:thinking:..just think if he only concerntrated on rapists,murderers,drug dealers and burglars this country would be in a right state.:thinking:..so give plod a break....:razz:....joking aside if i were a terrorist i would happily sit at home with a mug of tea and a pack of jaffa cakes looking at my target on google earth....get a grip plod
 
wonderer said:
Hey all

Not been here for a while so was just browsing as you do and was shocked by how many threads there are in relation to the police and section 44 etc etc.
I have had a lengthy and fruitless discussion on another website about this and reading through some of the threads on here has only enforced my belief that people are far to quick to judge....
Click to expand...

You've just inadvertantly proven that statement too. If you read all the threads properly you'll see that not all of us should be tarred with the same brush. Many of us believe that if you give the police a certain attitude then you'll recieve the same attitude back. I personally respect the fact that the police have a job to do. If I got asked why I was taking a photo quite frankly I'm glad that the police officer is DOING something preventative rather than reactive.

So rather than being a little to quick to judge us all like that, bit of common sense here wouldn't go astray and know that there are some of us out there who might have a different opinion ;)
 
We have for years had the press showing us "in your face" pix, and telling us that the world is full of terrorists/paedophiles/muggers - now people are surprised when this is the reaction... it's wrong on so many levels but in my view the buck stops firmly with the editors of the tabloids (and not only the tabloids) who will whip up *any* sort of a frenzy to sell papers. Those actions are coming home to roost on everyone's doorsteps now and we are just beginning to realise it.

As I said, it is wrong on so many levels, but in their defence a little... the police read those papers too.


Arthur
 
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