Large Format photography group - From "zero to hero!"

Carl Hall said:
Well, had my first proper cock up today! Was taking some photos in the garden on the arca and thought "hmm what's this large flat object in my hoody pocket?" That's right, a DDS dark slide. I go back into the conservatory and there's a DDS sat on the table with a visible sheet of Fomapan smiling at me. Glad it's only fiddy pence per sheet!
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No worries...there's plenty more c*ck-ups to come..
 
Laudrup said:
If you have 30 minutes to spare I watched a nice video on large format and platinum palladium printing:


Excellent, very enjoyable and definitely another kick up the bum to get me into LF.
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Woodsy said:
The thing is, among all of that, there's not a single bit of evidence that they can actually achieve this resolution, only stated specs and some mentioned evidence of them not actually getting to 8000 dpi.

In what I do, where I actually deal with real optical systems from time to time that are based exactly in this area of physics, reaching a diffraction limited spot is actually very difficult indeed, and this is using coherent light. Coherent light of very low M^2 values and good spatial coherence and well within the coherence length struggle to couple into single mode fibres for that wavelength (in the visible rather than IR) even using microscope objectives. Even with the above, the *measured* spot sizes are at best (approx)2 microns! At best, getting 80% into a fibre of core diameter of 6 microns is considered excellent.

So now take away the spatial coherence, add in a broad spectrum rather than single wavelength, add in moving parts and a host of other things all of which contribute to an increased minimum achievable resolution, and I simply fail to see how these numbers are possible. I appreciate coupling into fibres is not exactly the same as imaging, but still.

The best resolution an optical microscope can achieve is given by the Rayleigh spatial resolution of ((0.61.lambda)/NA), where NA is the numerical aperture. So about half the optical wavelength. I simply don't believe without evidence (as I am happy to stand corrected) that a scanner can even approach this as, even a perfectly aligned optical wide field microscope will not approach this limit.
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Waybackmachine and scannerforum.com

Seybold report on publishing systems from 96 I think could be 97


For those in love with Velvia 50 in 5x4 go fill your boots
 
b****r, two frames, broadly similar. One ruined by camera shake the other by the negative being scratched to pieces. Bah, There are times I missed the gravity of the RB...
 
Got into 10x8 territory:

Little brother and big brother:

Now the dilemma of what lens to go for? It takes Sinar boards and smaller Linhof ones. A 300 seems natural but this will mostly be for landscapes where wider might be better.
 
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That's bl**dy enormous....:eek:

I think when and if I finally have a go at LF it will be with little brother, that big, bad boy is too big and too bad for me. :)
 
Andysnap said:
That's bl**dy enormous....:eek:

I think when and if I finally have a go at LF it will be with little brother, that big, bad boy is too big and too bad for me. :)
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The little brother is heavy enough to carry about when you are all packed up but I'd recommend having a go.
 
Anyone bought a lens from Mr Cad before? I've been hearing some mixed reviews.
 
I bought a Sinar lens board from them and have no complaints except it was a little pricey for what it is. Decent service IMO.
 
I bought a lens a couple of years ago, like Dean says they're a bit pricey and I always go in to the shop to buy so I can have a look first.
 
Laudrup said:
Now the dilemma of what lens to go for? It takes Sinar boards and smaller Linhof ones. A 300 seems natural but this will mostly be for landscapes where wider might be better.
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If you are looking at 300mm Lenses all the standard F5.6 Plasmats are good however they are all in copal three and by no stretch of the imagination could be called small. If you want compact looh for a Nikon M300 F9 this is a Tessar design in a copal 1 it has no where near the coverage of a plasmat and just covers 10x8 alternatively there is the Fuji C300 or A300 none of these are likely to be as usefull as a Sironar or Symar S but are quite a bit smaller and now often tend to cost more (when new they cost less than the Plasmats but now people want them as long lenses on 5X4.

Wide angles on 10x8 tend to cost more as landscape use is one of the few areas where 10x8 is still in some use your 35mm 35mm equivalentish is a 240mm none of the standard plasmats are all that special here with regard to image circle and are all in Copal three shutters the stand out lens is the Apo Sironar S with a 372mm image circle at F16 this is what I use I also have a 240mm Symar S but I find that it's image circle is insufficient for my needs other contenders are the rare and sort affer Fuji 250mm F6.7 W this is in copal 1 and has a simular image circle to the Apo Sironar.

210mm is your sort of 28mm 35mm equivalent and here again the choices are limited as no standard 210mm F5.6 Plasmat covers 10x8 however most of the manufacturers for a short time offered 80 degree plasmats, the Apo Sironar W and the Super Symar HM both offer about 350mm of coverage and are fairly rare and expensive the options if you need a wider image circle are true wide angle designs here there is the Super Angulon 210 F8 and the newer Super Symar XL F5.6 and the Grandagon N F6.8 these are all rarer than rocking horse excrement expensive and even by my standards &&&&&&&ing huge the practical lens is the Fuji 210mm W from the late seventies it is a single coated 80 degree plasmat in a copal one it has an adequate image circle of 350mm, I brought mine for about £200 in 2009 it is very important to now exactly what you are looking for with this lens as over the years there has probably been about five or six 210mm Fuji's.

If you want to go wider the next step is a 150mm lens here all the designs are wide angle ones no plasmat at that focal length comes close to covering 10x8 the 35mm equivalent is around 21mm. The cheapest option is the Super Angulon 165mm F8 these are huge and generally £500 plus better options are the Grandagon N 155mm F6.8 the Nikon 150mm Sw and the Super Symar XL 150mm F5.6 all are huge and expensive (generally £1000 +) and moderately rare to see for sale the Super Symar gets some peoples vote for being brighter I went with the Nikon as I already had and liked the 120SW all these lenses have about 400mm of image circle so most likely more than your camera can use they also all will need a centre filter if you are shooting slide film this in itself is likely to cost another £200 or so.

If you want wide still then there is the Nikon 120mm F8 SW its in copal 1 so not utterly huge but not exactly small either it has just enough image circle to cover 10x8 on a carefully centered camera but no movements (in practice whack it down to F32 and you can get away with a small amount of tilt. None of the other lenses in this range truly cover 10x8 and again you are going to be seaching for an expensive centre filter and I do mean searching as Nikon never made centre filters for their lenses and the 77mm filter thread of the Nikon is not shared with any Schneider or Rodenstock lenses at least that I'm aware off, the options are Heliopan (no longer available new) or Hoya did make a filter in this size as did Marumi or Fuji Gx617 filter for the 90mm lens I have both the Fuji and the Heliopan.

There are a few other wide angle options if you want to mess about with classic American "Glass" there is a Wollensack around 159mm I believe and some Ektar lenses that are useable older Angulons really are not and if you want to look into truly bizzare there is the Hypergon none of these will perform as well as any of the plasmats / wide angles mentioned above but some people seem to enjoy playing with them.

Ultimately what suits you is dependent on what you can manage to drag about with you / your budget / what is available.

As to MrCad go there in person if you can and speak to the owner Alex Falk especially with regard to large format gear. I to find a lot of their items over priced but then again I just buy stuff that I know is reasonable and also run off quickly with bargains if you know what you are about there are always some to be found. Alex himself is incredibly helpful if you get to know him and the shop provides a valuable service in having available just about everything you are ever likely to need albeit at a price some times.


No love for the Velvia 50 ? I'm amazed any is left at that price and not having a quickload is no excuse as they are dime a dozen now (well should be yours for say £15)


As a simple recommendation if I didn't have one already I'd have clicked the buy it now on this instantly, the inside lettering means it is the 80 degree one with 350mm image circle.
 
abbandon said:
No love for the Velvia 50 ?
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I wouldn't say that ;)

Although it'll be a while before I shoot any of it because I've only recently got the full kit to be able to take any photos with my F2 (that's what I needed the lens board for). Think it'd be best to practice with something a little cheaper first.
 
That's a brilliant post abbandon, I learned a few things there to help me narrow it down. I had a look at the lens from Japan you posted and it looks nice but I've been stung heavily for import duty before and unfortunately all the most desirable lenses seem to be from Japan, South Korea or the USA. I'll give it some thought though as you know your stuff. I had a look at UK dealers and found a few possibilities:

Rodenstock 240mm N - http://www.ffordes.com/product/11070411360781

Schneider 300mm f/5.6 APO (with what looks like plenty Schneideritis) - http://www.richardcaplan.co.uk/eCommerce/product.aspx?cat=104&prod=4878

Schneider 360mm f/6.8 Symmar (scroll to bottom) - http://www.apertureuk.com/MediumLargeFormat.html

The Schneider 360 looks massive but the equivalent 60mm gives it a scope for landscape and a portrait or two. I have the Rodenstock 135mm Sironar-S on 5x4 and sometimes it doesn't feel wide enough for some landscape and short for portraits so I can see a 240/210 or wider in my future for the 10x8. I wish I could go into Mr Cad but being close to Glasgow that isn't possible when he is in London.
 
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Pulled the trigger on a Rodenstock 240 and some holders and some film. Anyone use these Harrison changing tents in the field?
 
Strappy said:
I wouldn't say that ;)

Although it'll be a while before I shoot any of it because I've only recently got the full kit to be able to take any photos with my F2 (that's what I needed the lens board for). Think it'd be best to practice with something a little cheaper first.
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Well I noticed a few went ......

Laudrup said:
That's a brilliant post abbandon, I learned a few things there to help me narrow it down. I had a look at the lens from Japan you posted and it looks nice but I've been stung heavily for import duty before and unfortunately all the most desirable lenses seem to be from Japan, South Korea or the USA. I'll give it some thought though as you know your stuff. I had a look at UK dealers and found a few possibilities:

Rodenstock 240mm N - http://www.ffordes.com/product/11070411360781

Schneider 300mm f/5.6 APO (with what looks like plenty Schneideritis) - http://www.richardcaplan.co.uk/eCommerce/product.aspx?cat=104&prod=4878

Schneider 360mm f/6.8 Symmar (scroll to bottom) - http://www.apertureuk.com/MediumLargeFormat.html

The Schneider 360 looks massive but the equivalent 60mm gives it a scope for landscape and a portrait or two. I have the Rodenstock 135mm Sironar-S on 5x4 and sometimes it doesn't feel wide enough for some landscape and short for portraits so I can see a 240/210 or wider in my future for the 10x8. I wish I could go into Mr Cad but being close to Glasgow that isn't possible when he is in London.
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I always work on the assumption that I'll have to pay import duty and count it as a bonus on the odd occasion that I don't get charged.I would still encourage you or anyone to think about that 210 as its a seriously usefull lens on 5x4 and 10x8.

The 135mm lenses are not really designed as wide angles you would be better off with something like the Nikon 120SW in that range bit large but also covers 10x8 whereas the cheaper super angulon 120 and 121 do not.

I would say the 240mm and ffordes is over priced and while the other two are not bad you could probably get them cheaper very few people want F5.6 Plasmats in these sizes any more what often happens is people are selling them on commission and the actual owners remember what they cost and perhaps see some of the comedy buy it now prices on ebay rather than the sold for prices at auction.

The 360 Symar S is indeed bordering ridiculous the Rodenstock Sironar N in this size is a slightly more practical proposition as the 105mm filter ring is a bit more doable any of these are seriously huge and might possibly tax the front standard on a wooden field camera.

I do not have any experience of the film changing tents I have a dozen 10x8 holders but tend to only take six out as twelve shots is often more than you can take in a day anyway. It depends on what you want to shoot in landscapes and often enough you might be waiting for the right light / no bodies in the view / no wind to get the best reflections I have taken twelve shots in about two to three hours but often enough have waited two or three days to get the one shot I wanted.

I would try just taking a few shots before worrying about loading in the field.
 
abbandon said:
Well I noticed a few went ......




I always work on the assumption that I'll have to pay import duty and count it as a bonus on the odd occasion that I don't get charged.I would still encourage you or anyone to think about that 210 as its a seriously usefull lens on 5x4 and 10x8.

The 135mm lenses are not really designed as wide angles you would be better off with something like the Nikon 120SW in that range bit large but also covers 10x8 whereas the cheaper super angulon 120 and 121 do not.

I would say the 240mm and ffordes is over priced and while the other two are not bad you could probably get them cheaper very few people want F5.6 Plasmats in these sizes any more what often happens is people are selling them on commission and the actual owners remember what they cost and perhaps see some of the comedy buy it now prices on ebay rather than the sold for prices at auction.

The 360 Symar S is indeed bordering ridiculous the Rodenstock Sironar N in this size is a slightly more practical proposition as the 105mm filter ring is a bit more doable any of these are seriously huge and might possibly tax the front standard on a wooden field camera.

I do not have any experience of the film changing tents I have a dozen 10x8 holders but tend to only take six out as twelve shots is often more than you can take in a day anyway. It depends on what you want to shoot in landscapes and often enough you might be waiting for the right light / no bodies in the view / no wind to get the best reflections I have taken twelve shots in about two to three hours but often enough have waited two or three days to get the one shot I wanted.

I would try just taking a few shots before worrying about loading in the field.
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I managed to get the Rodenstock 240 for cheaper than Ffordes who I do find a bit overpriced but as you say you really are at the mercy of what is available at the time. I found a site testing some large format lenss:

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html#300mm_and_longer

And one that showed 10x8 coverage:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF8x10in.html

The lens came today, to say it is large is an understatement. It is on a Horseman board but I underestimated how large these copal 3 shutter lenses are mounted on boards. I picked up some Ilford Delta and Ektar 100 for messing about with for high contrast colour scenes that I have planned. Is there a colour/black and white film and supplier you deal with that is reasonable?
 
A 240mm is about as small as Copal three lenses come in

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Hence the bias towards recomending the few lenses in Copal one that cover 10x8.


Ektar 100 in 10x8 is discontinued so you might get lucky and find some dealers selling it off cheaper at some point.

Usually I have brought colour transparancy film in moderate bulk when people have had out dated / short dated stock mostly from MrCad although its been a while since you could get 10x8 Velia at £35 a box for ten sheets,the last time I brought any 10x8 it was from All photos in Worthing who got 12 boxes of 20 sheet provia short dated in for me at £96 a box I have about 35 sheets left so am contemplating having to pay £300 odd a box.

Traditionally people wanting to buy in bulk have used Badger Graphics and B&H in the states if you buy in sufficient quantities this could be an economic option other than that it is keep an eye out for short dated film which is getting harder to find.
 
abbandon said:
look for a Nikon M300 F9 this is a Tessar design in a copal 1
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I've been confused by this for a long time, but not asked. I can guess what "lens x in shutter y" means (in broad terms), but why is the wording that way round, and not "shutter in lens" or "shutter with lens"?
 
I don't know if there is a particular convention but they can be multiple options for the same lens for example the 750mm Apo Germinar in the photo above is in Copal 3 and has a maximum aperture of F14.5 this lens was also available in barrel and F9 in this case the two lenses are physically different you can not mount the cells of the barrel lens in a 3 size shutter whereas say you can get some of the Apo Ronar lenses in barrel and their cells will screw directly into standard shutters.

Also although Copal shutters are now ubiquitous with large format lenses Prontor and Compur shutters were options for many years, now though no one is making manual leaf shutters for large format lenses.

By stating that a lens is in a particular shutter it is implying certain physical dimensions to that lens with regard to diameters and threads.

Not sure if that answers your question ?
 
Maybe it'll be easier to understand if there is a LF lens (in its shutter) on the table... perhaps at the Stratford meet on Saturday???
 
ChrisR said:
Maybe it'll be easier to understand if there is a LF lens (in its shutter) on the table... perhaps at the Stratford meet on Saturday???
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If you want to head up to the Pentlands one weekend morning for a couple of hours you could have a shot of my arca.
 
steveo_mcg said:
If you want to head up to the Pentlands one weekend morning for a couple of hours you could have a shot of my arca.
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Next time I'm up there I might just take you up on that!
 
That was really interesting, thanks... so it appears that, really, the shutter is in the lens, between the front and back elements. I wonder why folk so often refer to it the other way round?
 
Because "In" is referring to the type of shutter or lack of it not in general the position of said shutter in relationship to the lens cells. as in Copal 1 or in Prontor Press 1. If we want to get anal about it the cells have male threads so they screw IN to the female threads of the shutter.
 
Took the 10x8 out on a trek on Sunday and made one exposure. The biggest battle was with the wind when up over 1,000ft+. Difficult to be inconspicuous with the 5x4 and near impossible with the 10x8 although one American woman did ask if it was the same type of camera Ansel Adams used which was pretty well spotted. I had one woman shouting if it was a '3-D camera' whatever that meant.

I spotted this on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schneider...975?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aa9347eaf

Overpriced or worth buying?
 
Typically I get asked "is that a Hassleblad?"

In Surrey you just can't get over 1000', with regard to wind I'm usually seen trying to get reflections and or Magnolias or the like in bloom so tend not to even go there unless the forecast is for really low winds in the first place.

Well as the listing states it is half the price of the other buy it now's but if you look at sold listings one went in March in Australia for about this price and did not have shutter issues.

These come up pretty rarely if you feel you need it or can use it I would say it is worth buying however for a wooden field camera I think you will have issues it is a seriously huge lens ...do not pass go buy that Fuji 210mm 80 degree lens in copal one any and every time for practical use.
 
Miles Whitehead will repair the shutter quickly enough, my two were done for less than £60 each.
 
By way of a reality check

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Ok its the Apo Germinar again but its of the order of the size of that Super angulon and on the right is the Fuji

Data Sheet for the Super Angulon here

You are looking at the older single coated version I supose it could be considered more practical that the latter better multi coated as its only 127mm front filter thread as opposed to 135mm and its a mere 2.4Kg rather than 3.1Kg

Igor Cameras has one listed for $1625 http://www.igorcamera.com/schneider_LF_lenses.htm

It says its black so is probably the later multi coated (in that auction you can see one of the cells is a silver finish.

The Fuji is well under a kilo and takes 58mm filters if you want to use grads on that Super Angulon you'll be looking at some sort of 6" filter system which will cost the earth in its self.

If you have the money to contemplate the Super Angulon I would consider looking for a Super Symar XL 210mm F5.6 its smaller lighter and likely to be a much better lens.
 
Thanks abbandon the Fuji you linked to is tempting me more and more and it looks to have dropped in price by $10. The Super Angulon has also went from £1500 to £1300 on ebay and I checked Chamonix do an auxiliary support for heavy lenses that might be worth checking out. If I could find a 210 SSXL in the EU I might go for it but the Fuji looks a bit of a steal as the Super Symmar is about $2650 not including delivery or taxes used. One thing I was wondering does a lens with 500mm coverage like the Super Angulon mean it will be sharper or softer than one with less coverage?

Was also wondering do you ever use a lens hood? I have seen the Lee bellows hood and was wondering if it was worth getting to reduce flare etc?
 
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As a generalisation most peoples coments tend to suggest that wide angle designs tend to be less sharp, however by the time you are talking 10x8 the small enlargements most people make mean that this is not usuall noticable.

The Fuji is generally regarded as being very sharp

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Browser pain version


When shooting inside I generally set up a compendium hood but not generally outside, sometimes I use a barn doors type shade outside if you have the Lee system one of their hoods might work well however before you buy one there are a couple of free methods that work really well. Often standing to one side of your camera setup you can cast a shadow onto the front element also another favourite is the darkslide you just pulled which can be used to do the same thing in a more flexible manor than most hoods(in the USA I believe hats are a common option to I don't ever where one myself)
 
OK, the time has come, the decision is made and I will be trying LF in the near future. I know, I know I said I wasn't going to but you swine have nagged away at my resolve and now I need to give it a go. :bat:
It won't be for a while yet as I need to get the cash together but I do need to decide which way to go. 5 x 4 is plenty big enough as I intend to schlep up hills with this kit so it needs to be light and portable, at the moment I'm leaning toward some kind of Graflex/MPP press type of affair although I am open to persuasion.
Your thoughts would be appreciated. :naughty:
 
For keeping it small, light and cheap, look at the Nikkor W 150mm F/5.6 (or similar). It's designed for copal 0 shutters, F/5.6 so is nice and bright, relatively modern so comes with relatively modern coatings and, in my experience, is very sharp indeed. From memory, the focal length conversion factor to 35mm is about 0.3, so gives 'similar' coverage to 50mm on full frame. Very good starter lens imo, and plenty of room to go wider or narrower as time goes on.

Consider also cameras like the shen hao PTB45. Has a good range of movements and only 1.4 kg.
 
Andysnap said:
OK, the time has come, the decision is made and I will be trying LF in the near future. I know, I know I said I wasn't going to but you swine have nagged away at my resolve and now I need to give it a go. :bat:
It won't be for a while yet as I need to get the cash together but I do need to decide which way to go. 5 x 4 is plenty big enough as I intend to schlep up hills with this kit so it needs to be light and portable, at the moment I'm leaning toward some kind of Graflex/MPP press type of affair although I am open to persuasion.
Your thoughts would be appreciated. :naughty:
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Dungeness iPhone-12 by Nick Watson, on Flickr
 
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you are a very bad man
 
Not yet mate. I need to garner some funds first, it will probably be a couple of months until I'm ready to go. I'll need a new scanner and a tripod as well so much moolah will be needed... if only I had a kidney left to sell.:D
 
@RaglanSurf
What does that beautiful beast weigh and what is it like folded up?
 
you also have to factor in the weight of the darkslides, tripod, meters, flashpan, gunpowder etc. it all adds up to a full rucksack for a day out!

One thing you might want to consider is what its made out of. My Wista is wood and brass and im just going through the tortuous process of trying to clean all the brass bits. It really did look rotten and needed doing. ive got a small drill with polishing bits but becuase there are little screws popping up all over the Wista, its chewing through the polisher pads like there is no tomorrow. Something worth considering. If i win the lottery i will commission a carbon fibre body!
 
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