Landscape advise for a learner

zendog

zendog

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Steve
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I've very recently bought my first DSLR - moving after years of point and shoot. My initial target is landscapes - both flat (Norfolk) and mountains (holidays). Lens Tamron 10 -24mm.

The thing is I'm off to the Peak District in a few days time and I'm still in the totally confused part of the learning curve. It's tempting to play safe, leave it in P mode and at least get something reasonable. Book advice is to go with AV and crank the aperture right down (to where?).

So what would you advise I try and why?

I will not have a computer so reviewing images properly will be tricky until I get home.
 
It may help to say which DSLR then the advice could be more specific to that camera, but most have scene modes of some sort - pick the one that represents landscapes (often an icon showing a mountain).

And welcome to TP too :)
 
Well the good thing about landscapes is they don't move so its easy to experiment. Try a few things out, yes you won't be able to review them well while you are away but if you try a few options and review when you get home it is all part of the learning curve.
Obviously without knowing the specific shot nobody can tell you the settings but ball park you should be ok between f11 and f16.
The hardest part that I find is balancing the right exposure between the land and the sky, especially on bright days. I'm guessing you don't have any filters yet so just watch you don't over expose the sky and loose all the detail.
You probably won't get every shot right, I certainly don't, but if you learn from it then its not a wasted shot.

Oh and welcome to TP!
 
Use a tripod and remote release would be my first suggestion

Also wouldn't go down to f/16 on a crop sensor if that's what you have, probably say maximum of f/11

Try and look up hyperfocal distance to make sure you get the foreground in focus too, failing that focus a third into the frame and you should be ok.

DOF preview also helps and on newer cameras use live view and check by zooming in on the screen to see all is ok focus wise
 
The camera is a Canon EOS 20D - ancient I know but cheap and it seemed a good place to start on a budget.

I want to have a go at RAW processing (already own Photoshop Elements 11) and the scene modes only save Jpegs. Plan is to shoot RAW +JPEG (fine).

Edit: I walk up the mountains I photograph - carrying a tripod would probably kill me! A backpack is bad enough.
 
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Composition, foreground interest, lead-in lines, interesting light.
 
There's probably nothing stopping you taking 500 or a 1000 pics, so try as many things as you can :) At the least you'll learn something, and maybe have a few decent pics!
 
Hello Zendog and welcome to TP.

The lens you have will be good for landscape shots but the capabilities of a wide angle lens can also be its downfall.

WA lenses cover a huge vista but it is very easy to end up with a photo that has a vast wasteland of empty foreground, so you need to look for, as mentioned by 4wd, foreground interest, lead in lines, etc.

Not always, but fairly often, you want all of the landscape to be in focus so I suggest around an aperture of around f8. Your lens at about 15mm the DoF is going to be big.

Have a look at the OS map for the area you are visiting and see if there are any places that could make decent shots. Also download the Photographer's Ephemeris -

http://photoephemeris.com/

Not all landscapes shots are taken around sunset or sunrise, but many are and this download is very useful as it shows the time and direction of the setting or rising sun.

If you go for a sunrise or set also look at the scene 90 degrees or even 180 degrees away from the main event for good landscapes.

Dave
 
OK dumb question time.

There have been various apertures quoted from 8 -16. I'm guessing that varies with light levels and the idea is to get the smallest you can for a particular shot.

So how do I know when I've gone too far down?

As a general comment. I have read a couple of books and have a slight grasp on the theory but I do not have a clue about the practical side yet. If I'm typing cr*p please tell me:-)

Steve

Oh and thanks for the welcomes.
 
When you close the aperture down to , say, f16 or f22 the image quality lowers. You also get colour fringing - think of the aperture acting like a prism separating out the colours.

All lenses have sweet spots- normally f2.8 to f8 (ish)! More expensive lenses have wider limits - normally.

Sometimes f8 is not a small enough aperture for the depth of field you want, so f11 or f16 is required - it's up to you. (Depth of field increases as you stop down the lens from f2.8 to f8 and beyond).

You'll probably find that f8 has a great enough depth of field at the 10mm setting on your lens.
 
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Quick back to basics - everything else being equal wide aperture (smaller f no) means less depth of field, small aperture (bigger f no) means more depth of field.
The reason people are telling you f/11 to f/22 (or whatever) is that 'MOST' landscape compositions with lots of foreground interest will want lots of depth of field.
The reality is that you want to think of each situation on its merits. Decide on the composition you want and then set the aperture and point of focus to give you the depth of field that is right for that particular image.
What others have said is right - avoid the extremes of the f no range of a lens as for various reasons the result you get will be less sharp that the 'bits in the middle'. Play with the lenses you have and see the results - take it from there to see where the best trade offs are.
 
"The depth of field you want"

This is one I am struggling with. This afternoon I took a range of shots (f4 to f20 I think) with my hairy knees in the foreground and trees to about 200m away. Viewed on a computer screen (zoomed in) I can see the best option but through the viewfinder they all looked much the same. Pressing the depth of field preview made it all darker without really helping. Am I expecting too much from the camera and it just needs lots of practice?

Another question:

A previous poster said focus at 1/3rd into the frame. Does this mean literally 1/3rd of the way up what I see in the viewfinder or 1/3 of the total distance I'm trying to photograph.

Steve
 
my favourite sweet spot for landscape is F11.
but do take note on the ISO level too especially shooting at darker environment where tripod may be needed.
 
zendog said:
"The depth of field you want"

This is one I am struggling with. This afternoon I took a range of shots (f4 to f20 I think) with my hairy knees in the foreground and trees to about 200m away. Viewed on a computer screen (zoomed in) I can see the best option but through the viewfinder they all looked much the same. Pressing the depth of field preview made it all darker without really helping. Am I expecting too much from the camera and it just needs lots of practice?

Another question:

A previous poster said focus at 1/3rd into the frame. Does this mean literally 1/3rd of the way up what I see in the viewfinder or 1/3 of the total distance I'm trying to photograph.

Steve
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there is no exactly right or wrong in photography.
but nothing beats going out and shoot to gain more experience and have more understanding how your camera and lens works. advises had been given,the rest is your homework..lol
 
The technical stuff really isn't that important. Stick it somewhere around f/8 or f/11 and you won't go far wrong, unless you want a particularly shallow depth of field.

Far more important is the content and composition. Spend more time thinking about them than worrying about largely unimportant technical issues, and you will come away with much more interesting images.
 
zendog said:
A previous poster said focus at 1/3rd into the frame. Does this mean literally 1/3rd of the way up what I see in the viewfinder or 1/3 of the total distance I'm trying to photograph.
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Just ignore this. It's bad advice based on a lack of understanding regarding how Depth of Field works.
 
zendog said:
Pressing the depth of field preview made it all darker without really helping.
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I really don't know why modern cameras have a DoF preview button. I'd be amazed to learn of anyone finding it useful.

What's happening here is that, when you're focusing and metering and generally setting up the shot, the aperture iris in your lens is wide open and you have an aperture of f/4 or thereabouts depending on your lens. When you press that button, the iris closes down to the aperture you've selected, just as it does when you take the shot. If you've selected f/16, say, then the aperture is only 1/16th as big as it was at f/4, and it only lets in 1/16th of the light. In most situations that's too dark to be useful.
 
zendog said:
This afternoon I took a range of shots (f4 to f20 I think) with my hairy knees in the foreground and trees to about 200m away. Viewed on a computer screen (zoomed in) I can see the best option but through the viewfinder they all looked much the same.
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That's not surprising when you understand how DoF works.

Depth of field is an ILLUSION. There is only one infinitesimally thin plane where objects in focus. Everything in front of or behind that plane is out of focus. The key is whether or not you can see it well enough to tell that it's out of focus. The more you magnify the image, the better you can see it, and the easier is to tell whether or not something is in focus. So at high magnifications you'll be able to see more out-of-focus (OOF) areas and your DoF will look comparatively thin. At lower magnifications everything will look sharp.

If you really, really want to do your head in about DoF, read this thread. Try to bear in mind that at least half of what you'll read there is wrong, but HoppyUK and arad are the guys who are right.


Alternatively, go with this advice which is far more practical:
Jayst84 said:
The technical stuff really isn't that important. Stick it somewhere around f/8 or f/11 and you won't go far wrong, unless you want a particularly shallow depth of field.

Far more important is the content and composition. Spend more time thinking about them than worrying about largely unimportant technical issues, and you will come away with much more interesting images.
Click to expand...
 
zendog said:
"The depth of field you want"

Viewed on a computer screen (zoomed in) I can see the best option but through the viewfinder they all looked much the same.
Steve
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You've got it! Use the best option! (In this situation)

Now concentrate on composition.
 
With the ultra wide lens you have it is easy for a composition to look uninteresting, everything gets lost in the wide view.

The technique I use, and lots of others, when using wide angles for landscapes is to have a strong foreground element, this might be as simple as a rock, or some seaweed, or a log. This helps to frame the image and give it a sense of depth.

Other basics, horizons rarely look best slap bang in the middle of the frame, as do important elements of the image. Imagine your image having three vertical lines dividing it into thirds, and the same horizontal. Important elements placed on the intersection of these imaginary lines usually works well. There are of course exceptions to this but it is a good starting point.

If you can manage the early mornings the first hour of light is often the best in the day for landscape photography, it is also an awesome time of day to be out and about in the wilderness, no one else about (apart from other photographers!).
 
There are always compromises - say you try f/11 then find that the shutter speed's going to be too low for a sharpish hand-held shot - then you have to support the camera and / or up the ISO setting.

You may think that you're taking scenery but really you are recording light. The sensor only has a certain range that it can record in one shot, so you need to monitor that (use the histogram when reviewing the image) and intervene when necessary by modifying the exposure - highlights blown of detail may be the ugliest hazard - or just judging that the shot cannot work on a simple level. Failures cost little, but at the same time you're trying to refine your judgments, so be both kind and ruthless with yourself!

Wide angle lenses in a landscape context can often be a bit too all-inclusive - get to know what type of shot it works for.
 
markmullen said:
...If you can manage the early mornings the first hour of light is often the best in the day for landscape photography, it is also an awesome time of day to be out and about in the wilderness, no one else about (apart from other photographers!).
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+1 for that :clap:
 
4wd said:
Composition, foreground interest, lead-in lines, interesting light.
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:plusone:

It's got naff all to do with cameras, ISO or bloody ND Grad filters, look for interesting pictures, with great light.

If you've got a tripod though, bracket your exposures and you've no need for ND grads, you can stitch a well exposed sky onto a well exposed landscape.
 
Phil V said:
:plusone:

It's got naff all to do with cameras, ISO or bloody ND Grad filters, look for interesting pictures, with great light.

If you've got a tripod though, bracket your exposures and you've no need for ND grads, you can stitch a well exposed sky onto a well exposed landscape.
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Amen to that. Good light and good composition. The rest is just polish.

I suppose the only caveat is making sure at least something is in focus.
 
It's bad advice based on a lack of understanding regarding how Depth of Field works.
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Better than just focusing on a distant feature though and I did mention best to read up on hyperfocal distance.
 
I progress :)

Amazon finally got it's finger out - an 8 gig card arrived this morning so I've now got room to experiment for the week away.

After taking lots of shots on a Norfolk "hill" this afternoon f/10 seems to work best and that's my start point. Many thanks for the advice on this bit:clap:

Two last questions:

Colour space - the Canon manual (paraphrased) says use sRGB but both the books I've read were firm on Adobe RGB was best. Which is right for a first go? My guess is sRBG.

White balance - should I leave it on auto or set daylight / cloudy for the sun / cumulus you usually get in the hills (when it's not the default of raining).

Incedentally I hear all the posts that framing, light etc is the big point but:

a) I'm a nerd and like to understand the technical bits.
b) Getting the basics right is bloody complicated from a standing start:bonk:

Cheers
Steve
 
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Probably best to leave the white balance on auto. Cameras are pretty good at getting it correct nowadays. You can always correct it later if necessary.

On composition: have a look through Flickr before you go to see what works for you or inspiration. See why pics 'work'. Fill the frame with a subject.
And don't worry about it, you have the rest of your life to learn and enjoy your photography.

I didn't think I would see those two words together: 'Norfolk' and 'hill' :)
 
I always leave my WB on cloudy as I mostly shoot outdoors and I like to see a lil warner shots on the lcd. Yes you cam change it after but I try to do as much in camera. Just help me to visualise what I wana see from the shot. Also why I swear my nd filters. And there are scenes where bracketing either doesnt cut it or you find your going to spend alot of time in pp
 
I would start by taking shots from country pub gardens, the light at about 12.00 is lovely and by about 3.00pm everything looks great:)
 
Have a look through Flickr on some of the landscape groups to see what appeals to you then you'll have a rough idea of composition.

You'll hear the 'law of thirds' a lot but don't get hung up on it as its not always appropriate to the scene

Put your camera in 'Aperture Priority' mode on the top dial and as stated set between f11 and f16 and your camera will work out your shutter speed for you.

If you're shooting in good light you will be fine with your ISO set to 100

Focus around a third into the scene and use a tripod.

Use your DSLR's timer set to 2 second delay so it fires just after you've taken your finger away to ensure its totally stable.

If you venture into manual mode make a note of what shutter speed the camera chose when in Aperture Priority then use this as a guide. Lengthening the shutter speed will lighten your photo, shortening it the reverse

Focus is very important as if its not right in the camera post processing won't ever get it properly right

Make sure you post some of your results
 
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