Lance Armstrong

Edtog said:
Looking likely he will get all of his results stripped since 1998, which means I will have won more races than Lance in the past 14 years :)
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I am sure he will lose those tour titles, but that really puts the ASO in a big fix.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I don't know if he did or didn't, my position is that USADA HAVE undergone a witch hunt, someone has a vendetta. They have no evidence other than the hearsay of convicted cheats. They have acted out of line with WORLD doping body, the WORLD cycling governing body and the organiser of the TdeF.
If they are going to sanction him, then it should be based on evidence not hearsay. Haven't Hamilton and Landis in particular PROVED time and time again they are liars?
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Indeed. Show me the evidence.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but several other cyclists were tested for all sorts of doping from say 1999 through to 2006. Many of them were caught out and received bans etc.

Lance must have had hundreds of blood tests and urine tests, yet not one returned positive.

I assume identical tests performed on Lance and others. They were positive, he was negative.

That tells me he didn't cheat. :shrug:
 
Lynton said:
Indeed. Show me the evidence.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but several other cyclists were tested for all sorts of doping from say 1999 through to 2006. Many of them were caught out and received bans etc.

Lance must have had hundreds of blood tests and urine tests, yet not one returned positive.

I assume identical tests performed on Lance and others. They were positive, he was negative.

That tells me he didn't cheat. :shrug:
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It's not so simple, they all used different doctors so 1) its likely they were using different products 2) they would have been masking them differently
 
jacob12_1993 said:
It's not so simple, they all used different doctors so 1) its likely they were using different products 2) they would have been masking them differently
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Not according to USADA!

"Multiple riders with firsthand knowledge will testify that between 1998 and 2005 Armstrong personally used EPO and on multiple occasions distributed EPO to other riders"

"USADA has eyewitness statements from multiple sources that Lance Armstrong used testosterone and administered the testosterone-olive oil mixture to himself and other riders"

"Johan Bruyneel, team trainer Jose Pepe Marti and team doctors Luis del Moral and Pedro Celaya provided human growth hormone to team members"

And re saline and plasma infusions: "USADA will also present testimony concerning infusions given to numbers USPS riders, including Lance Armstrong".

So basically they are saying what the team did, Armstrong did and vice versa. Yet others failed dope test and he didn't.......
 
Some of the testimony from convicted dopers who have been given a reduced ban in return for agreeing to spill the beans can be discounted. Any one who trades a reduction in sentence for giving evidence should be regarded as deeply suspect in their honesty especially when they have spent time and money protesting their own innocence.

It is probably the evidence of George Hicapie that is the most damaging to Armstrong although it is only rumour that he has given evidence. He was Armstrongs team mate for all 7 wins.

We may never know the full truth of the matter. Giving witnesses reduced bans for testimony shows how desperate Travis Tygart is to convict Armstrong. The witnesses should be banned for life also but if that was the fate awaiting them how many would have given evidence.

If Armstrong is guilty then he should face the consequences. Unfortunately the whole doping issue around cycling continues to provide more column inches in the press than the achievements of riders over the last decade and leaves the sport still climbing a steep hill to show they have got things under control.

It should also be remembered that the FBI dropped its investigation into Armstrong earlier this year.

I admit to being a big fan of Armstrong and it will be a sad day for cycling if, when the evidence is finally published by the USDA, it is proven unequivocally that he is guilty.
 
Read on an article "pro cycling world tour" posted online that there is some evidence that a test was failed and covered up at one of la tour stages he won. If true and the UCI did help cover it up, there must be a big shake up from the top down.

Also AFDL said that he always knew when a test was coming and 'thinned' his blood removing small traces of EPO - http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rep...ce=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Personally I think he may have doped but hope he hasn't and that the UCI do not remove his titles from the tour. USADA surely do not have the power to do that. Guess in the US they can, not recognise them at most. If they do get removed will the history books just say no winner or 2nd promoted (also should we question if they doped?)
 
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Ricardodaforce said:
Long but very interesting article about a guy who wanted to experience first hand the effects of doping.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Drug-Test.html
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Remember reading that when it was first out, thanks for posting it again.
Who knows where it will all end

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/the-united-states-of-omerta
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network

I've just ordered Tylers book. If it's all lies, wonder if Lance will sue....

Next stop, UCI?

This just about sums it up
https://BANNED/Edwardmossphoto/status/239732373607047169/photo/1
 
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Well certainly seems to be high profile now with the publishing of the US report - if true it's appalling!
 
I think that this guy is pretty honest and open about the situation

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/o...doping-out-of-sports.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I think the reason why former team mates are coming forward, is because of the way in which Armstrong "controlled" everything. Armstrong was also particularly aggressive towards other riders in the peloton who were openly "anti doping" - Bassons being a good example.
 
I'm in the process of reading the full 200 page report. It's a sad read so far :(
 
Does anyone have any idea what we can do with 5,000,000 yellow wristbands?
 
Leslie said:
Does anyone have any idea what we can do with 5,000,000 yellow wristbands?
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Carry on wearing them? AFAIK, any wrongdoing of LA has nothing to do with the Livestrong bands which have raised millions for cancer charities.
 
Nod said:
Carry on wearing them? AFAIK, any wrongdoing of LA has nothing to do with the Livestrong bands which have raised millions for cancer charities.
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You don't think that Livestrong was built on the back of LA's success? A lot of the time that LA was asked about whether or not he doped he managed to deflect the conversation onto his work with cancer charities.

The two are one in the same in my eyes.
 
Isn't it strange that over the last week, two "huge" names, well known for their charity work, are now thoroughly disgraced.
The other similarity, is that for a long time, although there were rumours, in both cases there must have been a lot of people who really knew what was going on. In the case of LA, we have 11 former team mates who have come forward to give evidence.
 
Lynton said:
Indeed. Show me the evidence.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but several other cyclists were tested for all sorts of doping from say 1999 through to 2006. Many of them were caught out and received bans etc.

Lance must have had hundreds of blood tests and urine tests, yet not one returned positive.

I assume identical tests performed on Lance and others. They were positive, he was negative.

That tells me he didn't cheat. :shrug:
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:whistling:
 
Leslie said:
You don't think that Livestrong was built on the back of LA's success? A lot of the time that LA was asked about whether or not he doped he managed to deflect the conversation onto his work with cancer charities.

The two are one in the same in my eyes.
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If you feel that his (possible) cheating makes the wristband un wearable, take it off. However, since you've already paid for it, why not continue to show your support for the cause, not the man?
 
The LiveStrong brand is not as straight forward as a 'cancer' charity either, lots of stories of wrong doing in that business too.
 
bit of a surprise then. and that nice jimmy saville...what next???
 
matty said:
bit of a surprise then. and that nice jimmy saville...what next???
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They will announce jaffa cakes are being discontinued. I :lol:

Seriously though, I think with the Jimmy saville thing, it may be just the tip of the iceberg, as others have said I said In another thread abuse. Wasn't taken as seriously back in the 70's adults were the generally believed over children.
 
matty said:
bit of a surprise then. and that nice jimmy saville...what next???
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somehow, now after reflecting a bit when i was a kid, 70's 80's I am really not surprised about JS.. If all that is alledged is true, I am shocked by the sclae of it, and the cover ups / blind eyes turned etc...

However, am mega f***** off at Lance. (If again it is all true...) .. I genuinely don't know how he passed all the tests, including randoms, yet the USADA have so much dirt on the guy, and his response of "Cannot be arsed to fight it!, but not admitting it!
 
Lynton said:
somehow, now after reflecting a bit when i was a kid, 70's 80's I am really not surprised about JS.. If all that is alledged is true, I am shocked by the sclae of it, and the cover ups / blind eyes turned etc...

However, am mega f***** off at Lance. (If again it is all true...) .. I genuinely don't know how he passed all the tests, including randoms, yet the USADA have so much dirt on the guy, and his response of "Cannot be arsed to fight it!, but not admitting it!
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I wonder if this could have something to do with it all

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-reveals-armstrong-made-two-donations-to-the-uci

To this day, Lance Armstrong is I believe, the only professional cyclist to make a donation to the UCI.;)
 
The problem is drug testing is very limited in what it can detect. It tests the levels of various things and there's a range which is accepted as 'normal' and anywhere within that range is fine. Doping doesn't automatically cause these levels to sky rocket or plummet so as to be immediately obvious. If done intelligently you can creep these things to the edge of the norm, which would occur naturally in some people, without falling foul of the rules.

Then there's also masking agents to hide abnormal results and the fact that there just aren't tests for some things.
 
There are reports of blood transfusions and EPO, which if true are not only potentially dangerous to the recipient but also much more unlikely to be detected.
 
matty said:
bit of a surprise then. and that nice jimmy saville...what next???
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thing is people arent just one thing

theres no excuse for noncing up kids , or being a drug cheat (although the two arent strictly comparable - saville should burn in hell if its true, wheres LA should just lose his titles and live with his disgrace) but it doesnt change what else they did

the people who were helped by the money savile raised , were still helped, ditto the beneficiaries of livestrong.

Just as most of us have done bad things and good things in our lives (though most not as extreme at either end of the spectrum).

people are complex - hitler loved dogs

go figure

(edit -crap , ive just invoked godwin by accident, arse )
 
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I'm sure I've read somewhere (probably on t'interweb, so it MUST be true!!!) that Mr H liked dogs so they could do their #2s on him... He was also an artist and his pictures now sell for large amounts of money. Shame his syphyliss made him madder than a box of frogs - such a loss to the world.


(Just in case anyone's dumb enough to think I'm being serious, it's sunday morning and 7 am - how serious can a man be at that time?!)
 
tiler65 said:
And Nike have given him the elbow too....what will he do for money now?

Who will play him in the film of his life?.......... I am going for Simon Pegg.
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I think he needs to worry more about the potential perjury case....wouldn't be surprised if a lot of his sponsors are looking at all those performance bonuses he's been paid over the years too.
 
andy700 said:
Isn't it strange that over the last week, two "huge" names, well known for their charity work, are now thoroughly disgraced.
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I was talking to my neighbour about this, he's a Professor of Criminology. His view was that it was a way of intimidating people and putting themselves in positions of power/influence that made them seem "frightening" to challenge. Both of them were also seemingly happy to threaten physical violence too.

Oh and of course in Saville's case it gave him access to his victims.
 
MG TF 135 said:
How about innocent until proven guilty?

In every sport, throughout history, there is usually a standout athlete of a generation. Someone that can do things that nobody else can do. Someone that moves the goalposts, raises the standard and appears to change the direction that the sport is taking.

How about people just accept that Lance was one of these athletes. I have read through the majority of the posts on this thread and numerous times there are comments thay maybe the UCI is corrupt and covering things up.

When someone is successful there is bound to be jealousy. People who what to take that person of their perch. Could the other drug abusers been using to merely try and keep up with Lance? Could someone be bribed now to try and 'prove' that Lance was using then?

It's sad that instead of acknowledging that someone has passed all of the tests asked of them that the rumours continue.

Is anyone questioning Chris Hoy? Usain Bolt? Thorpe the swimmer?

Lets appreciate that sometimes there are people that are able to achieve things that most others can only dream of.
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Back in June i wrote this post in response to the initial USADA claims and accusations against LA.

Having been a fan of LA since my teens i was firm in my views that he could not have been a drug cheat. Firm in believing that this true legend in not only cycling but sport as a whole could not have possibly danced with the devil.

It seems i and many other fans were wrong.

The sheer amount of riders and associates that have come forward to testify against LA is astonishing. The weight of evidence is huge. At some point even the most die hard fan has to admit there has to be some fire beneath that smoke. Even if some of the evidence is provided by some former colleagues that have agenda's themselves, such as receiving reduced bans.

As a result of the USADA report though there are many more questions that need to be answered.
How was the LA cheating not detected when he was using the same drugs as others that were caught?
How could riders actively avoid drug tests to such an extent that they could get away with 'glowing' for large portions of the season?
How could the UCI seem to be diverting attention away from LA for so long?
How can drug cheats still be active in the sport?

The last week has been a dark week for cycling, but also a very bright week. A week that could herald the real dawn of a new era, an era where supporters and sport fans in general can watch cycling confident that all IS what it seems.

At the forefront of this new dawn are British cyclists that are staunch in saying NO to drug cheats. Cavendish, Frome, Wiggins are the new breed. The clean breed. Legends in the making.

This week we lost a king, but gained renewed hope.
 
cycling was dirty 40 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 30 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 20 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 10 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling is dirty today. They say cycling has turned a corner and is now clean.
cycling will be dirty tomorrow


From all the testimonies I hear the gain in performance from PED's is anywhere from 5-15%. When the rewards are so high there will always be people willing to cheat. That goes for all sports. Or maybe im just getting cynical as I grow older..
 
burrachaga said:
cycling was dirty 40 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 30 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 20 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 10 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling is dirty today. They say cycling has turned a corner and is now clean.
cycling will be dirty tomorrow

From all the testimonies I hear the gain in performance from PED's is anywhere from 5-15%. When the rewards are so high there will always be people willing to cheat. That goes for all sports. Or maybe im just getting cynical as I grow older..
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Hopefully you realise that cycling isn't much worse than any other sport too :)
 
burrachaga said:
cycling was dirty 40 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 30 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 20 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling was dirty 10 years ago. They said cycling had turned a corner and was now clean.
cycling is dirty today. They say cycling has turned a corner and is now clean.
cycling will be dirty tomorrow


From all the testimonies I hear the gain in performance from PED's is anywhere from 5-15%. When the rewards are so high there will always be people willing to cheat. That goes for all sports. Or maybe im just getting cynical as I grow older..
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perhaps they should just embrace drugging as a legit performance enhancement - as virtually everyone is doing it anyway
 
Err no. The only way forward is to have zero tolerance. If you cheat you get banned FOR LIFE. No second chances.

Moving forward, every rider in the peloton gets drug tested at the start of every tour stage. If they don't take the test they are assumed to be cheating and get suspended until they pass multiple tests.

As I've already noted this should herald a new start for cycling. A era where there is no doubt that competition is clean. But in the same breathe, to ignore your past is to condemn your future.
 
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