Knowledge or Chimping

[inaneredstripe]

the earth is flat.
isnt it?

 

[EdBray]

Can I get something clear here.

I am/was not criticising anyone for chimping, analysing their image, shooting in fully manual, auto modes, fully auto, programme or even blind on a remote timer if they like. All are valid uses of a camera and can be enjoyed and used by anyone, I just asked where you currently see yourselves photographically speaking and do you wish to actually learn about the various relationships between the variables or not if you are currently unaware of them, if you are getting results you are happy with and do not care about the relationship between variables then so be it and all power to you.

Where I was criticising (and still stand by it) is that if you are not 100% sure of you facts then you should not reply to a thread asking for factual advice with the wrong answer.

This is not aimed at subjective threads which are obviously open to debate, but on factual questions and answers only! And whilst I agree it is not a forum just for experts, if someone asks a question requiring a factual answer they should be able to expect that answer, not someone's mistaken interpretation of it.

 

[jerry12953]

Can I get something clear here.

I am/was not criticising anyone for chimping, analysing their image, shooting in fully manual, auto modes, fully auto, programme or even blind on a remote timer if they like. All are valid uses of a camera and can be enjoyed and used by anyone, I just asked where you currently see yourselves photographically speaking and do you wish to actually learn about the various relationships between the variables or not if you are currently unaware of them, if you are getting results you are happy with and do not care about the relationship between variables then so be it and all power to you.

Where I was criticising (and still stand by it) is that if you are not 100% sure of you facts then you should not reply to a thread asking for factual advice with the wrong answer.

This is not aimed at subjective threads which are obviously open to debate, but on factual questions and answers only! And whilst I agree it is not a forum just for experts, if someone asks a question requiring a factual answer they should be able to expect that answer, not someone's mistaken interpretation of it.

Some people think they know their stuff, but in reality, they may not. That is a fact of life. Presumably, though, if an inaccurate factual response does come in, there will be someone only too willing to correct it!

 

[whiteflyer]

As with most things in life there will always be the person who thinks they know it all, when they actual know jack ***t about the subject.

As Cedric says error should be corrected, and I would also say that if anyone spends more time than a cursory glance on TPF you can pick out who are the expects on different subject, for example Pete on HDR, Cedric on shooting garden bird, Matt on how to press the post button





OH it's just an urban myth that folk thought the earth was flat, even in the old testament described the earth as a circle or round

 

[KIPAX]

OH it's just an urban myth that folk thought the earth was flat, even in the old testament described the earth as a circle or round

I am not the only one who thought people where sure the earth was flat... so i wouldnt be the only one who would post saying they did.... i and others would be sure we where right and post as such... but as you point out we would be wrong..

Its the same with photography or any subjeCt.. the OP makes the point that people post missinformation.. well they do.. but they do thinking they are absoloutly right... thus its always gonna happen... no matter what ...IMHO

 

[jerry12953]

I'd never heard of the term "chimping" until about ten minutes ago but by glancing at some of the posts on here got the impression that it might mean
pressing the shutter button fairly randomly and doing a bit of photoshop work and eventually coming up with a couple of half-decent photos.

A bit like a million monkeys at a million typewriters eventually coming up with the works of Shakespeare.

Or have I got my primates mixed up?

 

[OutLore]

Can I get something clear here.

Where I was criticising (and still stand by it) is that if you are not 100% sure of you facts then you should not reply to a thread asking for factual advice with the wrong answer.

This is not aimed at subjective threads which are obviously open to debate, but on factual questions and answers only! And whilst I agree it is not a forum just for experts, if someone asks a question requiring a factual answer they should be able to expect that answer, not someone's mistaken interpretation of it.

I take it that this is in part at least due to me commenting on the f-stop question? Something which when re-reading it is purely me misunderstanding the logic behind it.

But, you have to allow for questioning within the debate - sure the OP has asked a question, but there is nothing to stop someone else re-questioning the answer given. If re-questioning doesn't happen, this stops being a forum and becomes a FAQ.

In life, if you ask a person in a group a question and they answer it - does that mean that everyone else in the group should not re-question or ask further questions about the subject?

If I had not asked my question, I would have carried on thinking what I was thinking - by asking, there are 2 people who now know the correct answer.

 

[..MD..]

I'd never heard of the term "chimping" until about ten minutes ago but by glancing at some of the posts on here got the impression that it might mean
pressing the shutter button fairly randomly and doing a bit of photoshop work and eventually coming up with a couple of half-decent photos.

A bit like a million monkeys at a million typewriters eventually coming up with the works of Shakespeare.

Or have I got my primates mixed up?

chimping taking a pic then looking at the back of the camera and going ooohhh ooowwww eh ehe eh ooohhh

when you get a few togs doing this its like a bunch of chimps...


md

 

[KIPAX]

I'd never heard of the term "chimping" until about ten minutes ago but by glancing at some of the posts on here got the impression that it might mean
pressing the shutter button fairly randomly and doing a bit of photoshop work and eventually coming up with a couple of half-decent photos.

A bit like a million monkeys at a million typewriters eventually coming up with the works of Shakespeare.

Or have I got my primates mixed up?

you may want to do more than glance at the posts.... yer a million miles off in my book


look at any professional sporting event and professional photographers chimping... they dont do random

 

[EdBray]

I think Ed has brought up a very touchy but very valid issue here. I may be wrong, but I suspect he learned the bulk of his photographic knowledge long before digital, when you simply had to have a grasp of the basics to get anywhere at all.

I started my photographic journey in 1979 at the Plymouth Art College. We were taught the basics of film using a Pentax Spotmatic and 50mm standard lens. We were given rolls of Tri X and a Weston Master V and were taught the relationships between ISO, Aperture value and Shutter speed (including what they meant and how they were derived). In time we began to fully understand Depth of Field and Focal Length. We then progressed on to 5x4 and even Lith. And it was not until the 2nd year we were allowed to experiment with colour (in the form of transparency film) which brought its own problems and solutions (E6 is that a pun?). I have been involved in photography in one way or another since that time and have had many different camera outfits Half Frame, 35mm, MF, 5x4, fully manual, early AF, digital etc and been involved in many different photographic projects. Although I do regret have never shot a 10x8 image and I no longer think I ever will.

I just think that it is (and would be for those that currently have never experienced it) so much more satisfying to visualise an image, execute it perfectly and then be able to admire it knowing that your experience and knowledge achieved that, not just a lucky hit from the AF and Software built into your camera.

It's a difficult problem Ed, and it's only going to get more difficult as the board gets bigger, but if anything will reduce TPF to the level of all the others out there, it's ignoring this issue I'm quite sure , so good on yer for bringing it up.

Thanks I think it's a great forum, and would like to see it go from strength to strength, I am not trying to come across as 'holier than thou' or as a 'know it all' and I would like to think that I offer correct advice and where facts are required supply them if able or take onbaord others replies if I am not, I am more than happy when I learn new things as I suspect others are too.

I only partake of photography now for my own benefit and pleasure and have been branching into areas to which I have a limited lack of knowledge (macro, landscapes, sports, etc) and am amazed by and admire the work of many on here in those fields. I know I can take a good portrait and could shoot a wedding without any qualms as I have undertaken hundreds over the years, product style shots I can also do although a little rusty. But I have a lot to learn too and my images of my new interests are not yet as good as I would like, I get the odd one that I am pleased with, but until my hit rate improves dramatically I will keep trying.

 

[whiteflyer]

 

[CT]

PMSL. Chimping isn't the issue is it? Anyone who doesn't chimp using digital wants their bumps feeling, particularly if they're important shots - a wedding or whatever - of course you're going to chimp to make sure the shot is in the bag.

 

[KIPAX]

i would have put ... do what he wants... above the big fella

 

[OutLore]

OH it's just an urban myth that folk thought the earth was flat, even in the old testament described the earth as a circle or round

Round, yes - spherical, no. They thought it was "coin" shaped, therefore flat.

 

[frank]

Should I cover up my lcd screen with Brown paper and masking tape in case i get ridiculed for chimping ? <sarcy mode off now> I'll get me coat

 

[EdBray]

I take it that this is in part at least due to me commenting on the f-stop question? Something which when re-reading it is purely me misunderstanding the logic behind it.

But, you have to allow for questioning within the debate - sure the OP has asked a question, but there is nothing to stop someone else re-questioning the answer given. If re-questioning doesn't happen, this stops being a forum and becomes a FAQ.

In life, if you ask a person in a group a question and they answer it - does that mean that everyone else in the group should not re-question or ask further questions about the subject?

If I had not asked my question, I would have carried on thinking what I was thinking - by asking, there are 2 people who now know the correct answer.

No names, no pack drill.

In actual fact, your post did state what you though and that you may be wrong that in my mind is fine, and I have no problem with that at all. There were two other posts on that thread that were totally incorrect and yet was suggested to be fact.

It did have a bearing on that thread (as you have brought it up) but it is not the first or only thread recently that has suffered from this. I have no aversion to people asking additional questions and even questioning the supplied answers, but please do not give a reply with the interpretation that it is fact when you are unsure, you may well end up being correct, but you may also be wrong and just add confusion into the mix.

 

[OutLore]

No names, no pack drill.

In actual fact, your post did state what you though and that you may be wrong that in my mind is fine, and I have no problem with that at all. There were two other posts on that thread that were totally incorrect and yet was suggested to be fact.

It did have a bearing on that thread (as you have brought it up) but it is not the first or only thread recently that has suffered from this. I have no aversion to people asking additional questions and even questioning the supplied answers, but please do not give a reply with the interpretation that it is fact when you are unsure, you may well end up being correct, but you may also be wrong and just add confusion into the mix.

Yes agreed - and after you corrected me I felt like a total idiot - as I did actually know the answer, but was looking at the figures and thinking "double the light means double the f-number" doh!!

I actually started in photography, some 20 something years ago in film, so I do have a basic understanding of the elements involved. Did a little B&W developing too, which helped with making sure I got things right in the camera in the first place....

I had to "give it up" due to expense, but just recently got the bug back when I bought Mrs OutLore a D40....:bonk:

 

[theMusicMan]

I have read this thread from top to tail, and find myself very much onside with KIPPAX here i.e. I find the thread tending towards the insulting, patronising and aloof direction. There has been lots of good advice offered, but who individually has the right to say one person is right and another person is wrong - and have everyone expect them to be believed. That's the way the OP comes across in this thread.

I am sure, as CT points out, that there is a significant amount of experience and knowledge there, that many of us, myself included, could benefit from - but to imply that everyone else is wrong and one should doubt what is posted in response to ones questions as those who answer could be wrong too is aloof and patronising.

Besides this, a discussion forum is just that... a discussion forum, and one should ask whatever questions one wishes, and also contribute to the forum by answering any questions one feels the need to, to the best of ones knowledge. No person has all the answers, and we all still have things to learn. When one person comes on making a post stating long term members are wrong, and he is right, so best believe him - is not a post I have respect for.

We all make mistakes, and I am certain nobody (or very few people) answer any questions on here knowing they are wrong in what they post. They do so with the best intentions. Remember, perception is reality.

 

[jerry12953]

Right - so one photographer doing it is a settings check; two or more is chimping......

But I thought we were talking about a shortage of basic photographic knowledge here?

 

[..MD..]

personally i try and answer any questions that i think i may know the answer to ..
and i work on the theory that if i am way off the mark " as i am still very new to this game " that someone who knows the correct answer will come along and correct me hense the op will get the correct answer " and me "

htms


md

 

[EdBray]

The Music Man

I'm sorry you feel like that and that is/was not my intention, but there are things that are just wrong. To say f4 is two stops down from f2.8 IS WRONG, this is not open for debate it is fact. It would not matter whether the poster was a long term member ot not it is wrong. To compound it by later stating something even more inaccurate in the same thread is also wrong.

If you feel that i am arrogant by stating thus then so be it, as for insulting, I find it insulting that someone is prepared to misdirect another member by posting as fact things that are plainly incorrect and can be easily researched.

I do not say anywhere that my way is the only way and that I am right where others are wrong, but some things are beyond debate and are therefore right or wrong, they have no middle ground for debate.

1/250 sec is twice as fast a shutter speed than 1/125 and thus will allow half the light through whilst open. This is correct (in practical terms). So if someone tells you different then they are wrong, end of debate. Not arrogance, not being aloof, not being a 'know it all' just stating a fact!

 

[Grockle]

And the guy in the middle is ready to get the "money" shot whilst the others are too engrossed in the past to shoot the now.

 

[GarynLea]

personally i try and answer any questions that i think i may know the answer to ..
and i work on the theory that if i am way off the mark " as i am still very new to this game " that someone who knows the correct answer will come along and correct me hense the op will get the correct answer " and me "

htms


md

I agree totally, I've gathered an enormous amount of valuable info whilst in here and feel confident to share it. If the 'experts' are the only ones good enough to answer the repeated newbie questions that arise on a weekly basis, there are going to be many unanswered posts from the people who need responses the most ... I try to always answer "As far as I know..." and welcome being corrected if I get anything wrong.

A thread like this doesnt exactly instill confidence in us 'not quite newbies'

Gary

 

[EdBray]

A agree totally, I've gathered an enormous amount of valuable info whilst in here and feel confident to share it. If the 'experts' are the only ones good enough to answer the repeated newbie questions that arise on a weekly basis, there are going to be many unanswered posts from the people who need responses the most ... I try to always answer "As far as I know..." and welcome being corrected if I get anything wrong.

Gary

Which is no more than I asked and how I believe it should be

 

[GarynLea]

Sorry I editted while you were typing

 

[donut]

i dont even know how to look at the image ive just taken on the back of the camera yet ,,so if anyone can help me ,,,,,,,,,its a nikon fm2 ......

 

[EdBray]

At least you'll learn how the aperture and shutter speed are linked.

 

[CT]

Here's an idea.

How about an 'Ask The Experts' type forum? There's plenty of photographers on the board now with the collective experience to handle pretty well any question. Limit access to answering to say half a dozen people willing to take on the job, which would ensure a good cross section of experience in all fields.

I dunno if it's even possible, but it should provide a forum where people can get reliable answers to queries and should build up into a database people can research on lots of issues?

It's not meant to sound elitist and I'm not putting myself forward for it either.

 

[..MD..]

Here's an idea.

How about an 'Ask The Experts' type forum? There's plenty of photographers on the board now with the collective experience to handle pretty well any question. Limit access to answering to say half a dozen people willing to take on the job, which would ensure a good cross section of experience in all fields.

I dunno if it's even possible, but it should provide a forum where people can get reliable answers to queries and should build up into a database people can research on lots of issues?

It's not meant to sound elitist and I'm not putting myself forward for it either.

sounds good in theory mate

be interesting to see it in a working practice...

could be called jeeves and co lol

md

 

[petemc]

That sounds like a great idea but I can see a few flaws in it. Who are the experts? The problem is that you have experts and people who think they know it all who will talk a load of nonsense in an attempt to sound clever. How do you prevent them posting there? Won't we have the same issues? Isn't there a chance it'll become elitist? I know its not in anyway but isn't there a chance? I think if theres a way of making it work it would be good to try.

 

[CT]

Well they'd have to be carefully chosen, and they'd have to be willing to undertake the job. I'm not talking about things like composition, which are always going to have differing opinions, but mainly basic technical issues that people have problems with.

I could probably come up with half a dozen people fairly easily who do answer these type of queries and who give good sound advice, but it would be up to the Admin to decide obviously.

I can see Pete's point about stopping others replying, and for it to work, only the elected bods would have access to reply. There's the rub ...I don't know if that's even possible with vbulletin? :shrug:

 

[pxl8]

I'm sorry you feel like that and that is/was not my intention, but there are things that are just wrong. To say f4 is two stops down from f2.8 IS WRONG, this is not open for debate it is fact.

The problem is that people just don't know if they're wrong. F numbers can be confusing and stating 2.8 to 5.6 is a stop is an easy mistake to make. You can't ask (or tell) people not to reply unless they know they are 100% correct because anyone who does answer will think that.

I replied to the thread with a comment about using 1.4 but no one picked up on why that number is important, after all it's at the heart of everything we do with light and is the very definition of a stop more or less light :bang:

 

[petemc]

Its got to be quite complex. Only the OP and the selected experts can reply.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I chimp like a good 'un, but by doing it I've learned how to set the camera up correctly to achieve the results I desire in the first place. Or so I tell myself anyway

 

[markta]

Most of what I have learnt is self taught as far as photography is concerned. I am happy to admit that I am not 100% sure of the technical aspects to photography.

I simply learn the hard way ... trial and error. This has resulted in a lot of chimping, and a lot of unnecessary shots. But I love learning that way, as what I learn stays with me. Unlike all the things I was taught at school. Most of that has left my brain forever .

OK so people may be incorrect in their advise. But those of you in the know do you simply tut to yourself and think 'What a pleb, that's not right', then move to another thread? Or do you take the time to make a correction, in a friendly way? At least that way you will be teaching; not only the OP, but also the misguided poster offering incorrect advise.

You also have to remember that Talkphotography is not a professionally exclusive web forum. It is open to all. It's about photography as a whole. Learning, having fun, ideas, inspiration ... competitions. The list is endless. But one thing it certainly is not, is a forum for know it all's to boast to one another, thankfully

Very well put Jo

In my case, I think there's a thread which I replied to concerning "stopping down".

I'm well aware of the differences and the effect they can have on shutter speed, but quoted a couple of values which turned out to be 1/3 or 1/2 stop increments.

Ed, not sure whether this was one of the occasions which contributed in you deciding to post this, why by the way is a fair question but I think most of us have "chimped and experimented" in order to learn and in fact pros still do to push their cameras even more.

Nothing wrong with that IMHO

Ed, just some friendly advice mate - comments can become a little misconstrued without using emoticons because there's no inflection etc. when typing a message. I mean I don't know you but from one of your replies, without the smiley etc. I didn't know what your demeanor was and probably some others didn't either, just saw a load of exclamation marks. I'd like to think in principle I answered the OPs question, albeit got a few of the figures wrong.

Hope you understand

 

[Trailertrash]

I would like to add this to my previous post. Having found out how to alter the ISO when I took this I did seriously chimp to my wife about how I have now moved my abilities a step forward. So the point is, I chimp but I learn at the same time. So to the OP I do both and look forward to more chimping because I'm learning too. If this makes sense then I'll chimp about that also.I'm chuffed with that image. I would have needed a tripod and many exposuers to get that in the old days. I took 2 of this to make sure I have something, but in fact 1 would have done.

 

[susie]

Trouble with an ask the experts type forum is firstly who are the experts, secondly it would run the risk of either turning into a Q&A with little or no discussion, and thirdly could turn into all experts having a difference of opinion but because of the "description" of the forum others would feel insufficiently qualified to comment or enter the discussion.
The other thing is that experts will often reply in an expert way, but when you are just starting out it is often easier to learn from others who are not as experienced as these people will put things in a far more simplistic way, without giving a lot of peripheral information which while very relevant can make things seem over complicated for the novice when they actually go out to get the pictures. I often found that the shorter simpler replies to my early questions (and pm's) were the ones I remembered when I was sitting somewhere alone with that demonic camera with all the settings, dials and buttons that do their best to gang up on me with the sole intention of confusing everything

Personally I think it works well as it is, I have learnt a hell of a lot since I have been on here and done a lot more in close to the year since joining than I would have thought possible when I started. Re the OP, yes I understand how ISO aperture and shutter speed work, what they are and how they fit together. No way am I going to start getting the calculator out to work out focal lengths though!!! Should I ever do a landscape I will just try different settings and see which worked (or not which is more likely) when I get home

 

[EdBray]

I replied to the thread with a comment about using 1.4 but no one picked up on why that number is important, after all it's at the heart of everything we do with light and is the very definition of a stop more or less light :bang:

Okay, 1.4 is the commonly used shortened version of the square root of 2.

Yes it has real relevance when designing a lens and you can use it to get an approximation of a full f stop from another, but it isn't too difficult to learn the basic numbers from f1 to f64 really.

 

[petemc]

One expert per topic. Studio lighting. Natural lighting. Gigs. Landscapes. B&W. etc. You're right in that there is a danger of questions being asked in there leaving no room for discussion which would result in a loss of content in the other forums.

 

[Grockle]

I replied to the thread with a comment about using 1.4 but no one picked up on why that number is important, after all it's at the heart of everything we do with light and is the very definition of a stop more or less light :bang:

I guess it is something to do with the fact that 1.4 is the square root of 2 to 1 decimal place and if I remember correctly, light and distance works on the inverse square law for point source lighting.