Knowledge or Chimping

[EdBray]

Are you blissfully unaware of how the various relationships between aperture values, shutter speeds, ISO values, focusing distances and focal lengths make up an image?

Do you just go out and take hundreds of images on every trip and hope that one or two are keepers?

Or do you or do you want to actually learn how to use your camera and lenses to create an image, knowing that you had a hand in it's conception, that you chose the correct variables available to you to create your masterpiece?

The reason I am asking these questions is that I have become a little concerned about the number of replies on this and other forums to requests for help or advice from beginners that are many times just completely wrong. They are ill-informed and whilst others may reply with the correct answers the wrong ones can cause confusion in the mind of the requester and at the end of the process he may well be none the wiser. Some of the people posting this incorrect information can have large post counts which could lead a newbie to suggest that the poster replying actually knows what he is talking about.

I am not talking about image critiques here as that is purely subjective, more questions and answers on technique and the understanding and application of such.

It has also struck me how few members seem to actually know the relationships between all the variables involved in creating an image and wondered if they are actually happy just poodling along in auto, posting a dozen pictures and asking which is the best and hoping that they may have a keeper or two from the 500 they have just taken.

Although the digital medium gives us the opportunity to practice in a much cheaper way than film did, coupled with the fact that you can see you images much more quickly than you could when using film so any changes you have made you can see and understand more readily, gives us all the opportunity for to be more informed sooner than in the past. So, has these lower cost and greater technological advances just led us to be less informed, chimp more often as it costs nothing and just hope for the best, or, has the digital medium had a beneficial effect with it's potential for learning different techniques without too much cost been taken on board?

Where do you stand, are you photographically aware? Are you a chimp? or do you not care?

Just curious! Can of worms? Maybe!

 

[Kerioak]

I think I know the various relationships between aperture, shutter, ISO etc but I could not explain them. Just as my fingers know where the keys are on a keyboard or my feet know which order the pedals in a car are I would struggle to vocalise their order.

I see nothing wrong in taking a lot of pictures in a variety of modes to find the best. Some people can learn from theory, others need practical experience whether by example or experimentation. Those who post a dozen pictures asking for the best (not sure I see this very much) might gain from putting the pictures away for a week or so and then looking at them with a fresh eye rather than on the day they were taken.

 

[33L]

I would like to say i know what i am doing.
I see something thats worth of a shot. I imagine what the out come i want and fiddle with settings to get roughly desired effect eg DOF
set it up and take a shot and finely adjust settings until desired shot is achieved.

I am both aware and a chimp if that makes sense.

I think thte advance in technology has made it easier for people to learn and also has changed learning methods, for example. chimping untill desied effect achieved rather than people reading first how different settings manipulate the image.

 

[Marc]

Can't see chimping as being in anyway wrong, just utilising the available technology. As the others have said, it makes it a lot easier to learn. When we used film, it could be weeks, or even months, after a photo was taken before you got to see it. By that time you will have forgotten what you did so, if the photo isn't right, you won't have learned why. Yes you could take notes but if you shot a lot, all your time would be taken up with managing a system to use those notes, life is too short.

As far as replies to posts, I think the more valuable feedback tends to come to the fore and hopefully the poster takes the correct information away from it. I think everyone tries to be helpful and pass on the knowledge that they have.

 

[Jo]

Most of what I have learnt is self taught as far as photography is concerned. I am happy to admit that I am not 100% sure of the technical aspects to photography.

I simply learn the hard way ... trial and error. This has resulted in a lot of chimping, and a lot of unnecessary shots. But I love learning that way, as what I learn stays with me. Unlike all the things I was taught at school. Most of that has left my brain forever .

OK so people may be incorrect in their advise. But those of you in the know do you simply tut to yourself and think 'What a pleb, that's not right', then move to another thread? Or do you take the time to make a correction, in a friendly way? At least that way you will be teaching; not only the OP, but also the misguided poster offering incorrect advise.

You also have to remember that Talkphotography is not a professionally exclusive web forum. It is open to all. It's about photography as a whole. Learning, having fun, ideas, inspiration ... competitions. The list is endless. But one thing it certainly is not, is a forum for know it all's to boast to one another, thankfully

 

[whiteflyer]

I'm self taught with the help of these forums and a book on exposure. I more or less understand the relationship between aperture values, shutter speeds, ISO values, but I have still a lot more to learn.

I can swap from being a chimper and non chimper depending on what I'm shooting.

For example I did a canoeing event last weekend and knew I would take all my shots from the same place to catch the action at one spot. So I set my camera and took a few test shots until I thought I had the correct setting, then just fired away without looking at the screen all day.

Did some fungi a while ago and chimped nearly every photo.

 

[Jaco]

Have to agree with Jo here, I am most prob a chimp although I did dabble about with film in the dark old days. But since joining this forum and getting out and about I feel I am definately picking up and getting grips with the more technical side of photography.Although there is a wealth of information out there its a case of taking it as far as you want to go.We all cant be top toggers but we try to do our best and the best cany vary for different people I think that people post with the best intentions to help not to mislead.

 

[Trailertrash]

I'm fully self taught. However I do want to keep learning. Example and dont mock please:
I have just learned how to alter the ISO setting on my camera from auto to higher settings. So armed with this knowledge I went out last night and shot a series of images to test my new found ability. Result...delighted...it worked. So now this old codger can take better pics than he used to. Thats progress...

 

[lawrie29]

I chimp, but am beginning to learn, through trial and error, and also from things posted on here. My only thought though, is that maybe TP should have a beginners/learning forum. Somewhere with advice for starting out, asking seamingly stupid questions etc. I know there is the tutorials and guides section, but there does seem to be many repeated threads which could be bundled together.

Just a thought

 

[Jo]

I'm fully self taught. However I do want to keep learning. Example and dont mock please:
I have just learned how to alter the ISO setting on my camera from auto to higher settings. So armed with this knowledge I went out last night and shot a series of images to test my new found ability. Result...delighted...it worked. So now this old codger can take better pics than he used to. Thats progress...

Well Please enlighten me I'm using a 40D and still haven't figured that one out

 

[EdBray]

Thank you all for your candid replies so far.

I agree that chimping (not a particularly pleasant word to describe taking multiple images) can be a valid form of learning and that when the differences between images are identified and be quantified can promote quicker and more understanding learning. It is a tool to be used like any other. Trial and error can be one of the best forms of learning, to experience something is much more likely to be understood than to just be told something.

My perspective of 'chimping' really is of someone who has no desire to learn, just takes multiple images of the same/similar subject altering the odd setting in the hope that he may end up with a decent image.

As to a forum for 'know it alls' to boast, I don't see that, if i come across as a bit of a 'know it all' at times that is probably because I am knowledgeable about that particular subject, I would not offer quantified advice about something I was not 100% certain of, my opinion maybe, but I would not state that black was black unless it was a fact. Unfortunately this is not always the case for some other members, and I really do not see what they can get from it other than to confuse and mislead others, it cannot do their credence any good to post something they are unsure of and then be shot down moments later, this also makes the person who is correct look like a 'know it all' even though he is just correcting someone else's mistake, as if he does not do it with a certain amount of force, it may well just get taken as a conflict of opinion rather than fact.

If you don't really know or are not 100% sure then keep quiet and learn from the posts that do offer the correct answer, or post to the effect that this is how I understand it but I may be wrong.

Just my views.

 

[Jo]

I chimp, but am beginning to learn, through trial and error, and also from things posted on here. My only thought though, is that maybe TP should have a beginners/learning forum. Somewhere with advice for starting out, asking seamingly stupid questions etc. I know there is the tutorials and guides section, but there does seem to be many repeated threads which could be bundled together.

Just a thought

Nah, that would just create an 'us and them' atmosphere. It's unnecessary IMO. Yes there are a lot of threads repeated, but apart from asking people to search before asking (which I believe we already do somewhere...) I don't think there is much else to do. Besides, the answers to some questions can change over time.

 

[KIPAX]

I chimp, but am beginning to learn

Why is chimping being seen as something for people who dont know what there doing?? chimping is good.. or do some people not realise what chimping is... its checking the histogram to make sure your settings are right.. usually done in manual as auto gets it right anyways.. in fact not much you can do about it in auto.. so chimping is more for people who do know what they are doing...

confused chimper


just read replies after i posted the above. now i am sure people dont realise what chimping is.. multiple images eh ??

 

[EdBray]

Why is chimping being seen as something for people who dont know what there doing?? chimping is good.. or do some people not realise what chimping is... its checking the histogram to make sure your settings are right.. usually done in manual as auto gets it right anyways.. in fact not much you can do about it in auto.. so chimping is more for people who do know what they are doing...

confused chimper


just read replies after i posted the above. now i am sure people dont realise what chimping is.. multiple images eh ??

So is not taking one image, studying it (histogram or otherwise), making an adjustment, taking another image (of the same subject) studying it and so on not taking multiple images of the same subject then? So easy a chimp could do it?

So after studying the image, and deciding that you then need to take another, do you not bother? just say to your self "Oh I got that wrong" or do you then take a 2nd or more images? ie multiple images of the same sublect!

 

[Jo]

Thank you all for your candid replies so far.

I agree that chimping (not a particularly pleasant word to describe taking multiple images) can be a valid form of learning and that when the differences between images are identified and be quantified can promote quicker and more understanding learning. It is a tool to be used like any other. Trial and error can be one of the best forms of learning, to experience something is much more likely to be understood than to just be told something.

My perspective of 'chimping' really is of someone who has no desire to learn, just takes multiple images of the same/similar subject altering the odd setting in the hope that he may end up with a decent image.

As to a forum for 'know it alls' to boast, I don't see that, if i come across as a bit of a 'know it all' at times that is probably because I am knowledgeable about that particular subject, I would not offer quantified advice about something I was not 100% certain of, my opinion maybe, but I would not state that black was black unless it was a fact. Unfortunately this is not always the case for some other members, and I really do not see what they can get from it other than to confuse and mislead others, it cannot do their credence any good to post something they are unsure of and then be shot down moments later, this also makes the person who is correct look like a 'know it all' even though he is just correcting someone else's mistake, as if he does not do it with a certain amount of force, it may well just get taken as a conflict of opinion rather than fact.

If you don't really know or are not 100% sure then keep quiet and learn from the posts that do offer the correct answer, or post to the effect that this is how I understand it but I may be wrong.

Just my views.

Erm, isn't chimping the act of viewing ones images on the preview screen at regular periods? (edit to clarify) To make sure your shots look half decent, or check what you got when that big rare bird flew by and you only had time to point and shoot ....

I'm sorry if you got the impression I was calling you a know it all btw. That was not my intention.

Though why should you keep quiet if you're not 100% sure? It's a web forum for interacting with people who share a love for photography. Not an ask the experts forum.

 

[Marc]

I agree that chimping (not a particularly pleasant word to describe taking multiple images) can be a valid form of learning and that when the differences between images are identified and be quantified can promote quicker and more understanding learning.

My perspective of 'chimping' really is of someone who has no desire to learn, just takes multiple images of the same/similar subject altering the odd setting in the hope that he may end up with a decent image.

Isn't that a contradiction though? You say it's a valid way to learn, but then it shows no desire to learn. Surely it depends what you do with the information you get from chimping. If you take a number of shots and remember what you did to get the correct one then you have learnt. At the end of the day, chimping is no different than looking at a finished print to see how good it is, just a lot quicker.

 

[KIPAX]

Erm, isn't chimping the act of viewing ones images on the preview screen at regular periods? .

Viewing the histogram to make sure your settings are right for the lighting... checking the picture on the preview screen doesnt tell you a great lot to be honest.. i have seen pics in there that look great and get home to find there pants

 

[Marc]

Though why should you keep quiet if you're not 100% sure? It's a web forum for interacting with people who share a love for photography. Not an ask the experts forum.

True. If you are not 100% sure so and don't say anything, then you will not be corrected by someone who is and will therefore not learn anything.

 

[Jo]

Wikipedia on chimping:

The term 'chimping' is attributed to Robert Deutsch, a USA Today staff photographer, in September of 1999 when writing a story for the SportsShooter email newsletter.[2]

The phrase is most likely derived from comparison between the sounds and actions some make while reviewing images and those of an excited primate (Oooh! Oooh! Aaah!), or when a photographer is completely absorbed in the act of analysing, admiring or proudly displaying a shot to others.

Edit: I just realised the irony of what I just did with this very post

 

[jgs001]

I'm slowly coming to grips with what all the settings do and how they interelate. My shot count is coming down and instead of firing off 6 or 7 to find one that works, I might only shoot 2 or 3 to get what I wanted. I do check the screen for each shot though. This doesn't mean the results are any better than I did before, but I've found I'm taking less, which has got to be a good thing for my 450d shutter life if nothing else .

 

[KIPAX]

Wikipedia on chimping:

wikpedia being the fountain of all knowledge

i guess people have different views as to what chimping mean...


my take on chimping : example of use.........
using the camera in manual or semi manual mode, checking the histogam and pic view to make sure your settings are keeping up with changing conditions ie light

 

[Jo]

But you don't make Chimp noises when doing that do you? .. or do you?

Edit: besides what you do is analyse right? That bit is in that quote somewhere

 

[KIPAX]

BTW I find the whole thread rather insulting and a bit aloof.. cameras have auto modes for a reason... i think my mkIII even has a P mode (battery on charge so cant check) this whole thread has a bad smell to it like theres something wrong with you if you dont know how to use your camera...

If you enjoy using your camera then it doesnt matter what mode you are in.

 

[Marc]

checking the picture on the preview screen doesnt tell you a great lot to be honest.. i have seen pics in there that look great and get home to find there pants

Oh I don't know. If you can critique an image on a forum by just looking at it, without viewing the histogram and, in most cases, the exif data, I'm sure you can tell a lot from looking at it on the preview screen. That said, I agree, I have taken plenty of pics that have looked great on the 3" screen on my camera, but when I load them up they look pants. An OOF shot can look razor sharp on a small screen!

 

[KIPAX]

But you don't make Chimp noises when doing that do you? .. or do you? )

more like kangaroo noises

 

[KIPAX]

Oh I don't know. If you can critique an image on a forum by just looking at it, without viewing the histogram and, in most cases, the exif data, I'm sure you can tell a lot from looking at it on the preview screen. That said, I agree, I have taken plenty of pics that have looked great on the 3" screen on my camera, but when I load them up they look pants. An OOF shot can look razor sharp on a small screen!

eeerm thats what i said... looking at pics on forum totally diff concept unless there posted so small like a preview screen

 

[Marc]

eeerm thats what i said... looking at pics on forum totally diff concept unless there posted so small like a preview screen

Hence the wink!

 

[KIPAX]

Hence the wink!

thinking too fast me ...always miss stuff sorry

 

[aberal]

I'm slowly coming to grips with what all the settings do and how they interelate. My shot count is coming down and instead of firing off 6 or 7 to find one that works, I might only shoot 2 or 3 to get what I wanted. .

I don't see that there's anything wrong with taking several shots of any one subject. In ye olde dayes the pros could take dozens of shots of a subject then review their contact prints in the dark room to hone in on the one or two that they wanted. Digital merely speeds up that process and makes it accessible to more people.

 

[EdBray]

I'm sorry if you got the impression I was calling you a know it all btw. That was not my intention.

Not a problem if it was, I have thick skin.

Though why should you keep quiet if you're not 100% sure? It's a web forum for interacting with people who share a love for photography. Not an ask the experts forum.

I didn't think I said that in that way, if I did I didn't mean it in that way, what I meant to say was if you are not 100% sure of your facts don't post it as such, by all means offer your opinion, stand to be corrected and learn. As I said, this only really applies to things that are not subjective or can be construed differently! An aperture value for example is just that, a 3 stop change from f2.8 - f8 will be just that, its not open for debate it's either right or wrong. My interpretation of 'chimping' is subjective and may well be different from someone elses, that could be a matter for debate.

If you don't ask you won't learn, but if you ask and someone gives you an incorrect answer as a fact, what then have you learned?

 

[KIPAX]

If you don't ask you won't learn, but if you ask and someone gives you an incorrect answer as a fact, what then have you learned?

thats life... someone could be 100% sure of there facts and answer.. but be 100% wrong... theres nothing that can be done about it..

people where 100% sure the earth was flat...

 

[Jo]

Funny you just posted that. Having still not gone to sleep after finishing my night shift at 7am, I missed the second part of that what I quoted. You did say ".. or post to the effect that this is how I understand it but I may be wrong.". I jumped the gun a bit there, sorry. I also would like to say that I agree with that thinking now also.

I think I better go and have some sleep before I reply anymore to anything today . Night night.

 

[whiteflyer]

thats life... someone could be 100% sure of there facts and answer.. but be 100% wrong... theres nothing that can be done about it..

people where 100% sure the earth was flat...

I take it that last statement was said tongue in check When did people think the earth was flat: NEVER

 

[KIPAX]

Funny you just posted that. Having still not gone to sleep after finishing my night shift at 7am, I missed the second part of that what I quoted. You did say ".. or post to the effect that this is how I understand it but I may be wrong.". I jumped the gun a bit there, sorry. I also would like to say that I agree with that thinking now also..

get some sleep quick.

 

[KIPAX]

I take it that last statement was said tongue in check When did people think the earth was flat: NEVER

sigh.. I guess I am missing something.. or have i said it wrong?

 

[petemc]

But you don't make Chimp noises when doing that do you? .. or do you?

Edit: besides what you do is analyse right? That bit is in that quote somewhere

Exactly. Chimping came about due to that monkey like action. If it was simply the act of looking at your lcd after taking a shot it would be lcding But its not, its the whole dancing, calling your mates over and going "oohooooh oooh oooh I gots it!!" So using the lcd is fine imho and why not? You could see something amazing and its nice to be able to know for certain that its on your camera.

 

[Marc]

sigh.. I guess I am missing something.. or have i said it wrong?

I must be missing something as well. Pretty sure there WAS a time when people thought the earth was flat! :shrug:

 

[inaneredstripe]

ive got a pretty good grip of the technicalities.
mostly due to my mrs , and of course reading stuff on TP.
i am also guilty of the occasional chimp too.
if i'm being payed for it, attention on the technical stuff is 100%.
if its for my entertainment (gig shots?) . my attention can wander. after all, i'm thewre to see the bands too.
people still get enjoyment out of their photography. be it in manual or full auto.
who am i to comment on who's doing it right?
mark.

 

[68lbs]

Why is chimping something to be guilty of? If I took a shot of someone and captured a particularly nice expression i'd be going "Oooo, haha, look at that" and showing people.

Just to keep it on topic too... I am one for wanting to learn all the techicalities too. I think without this knowledge, you can only develop so far, and a full understanding is needed if you're to get the most out of your photography and take the best possible shots. I am learning... just not sure how quickly

 

[CT]

I think Ed has brought up a very touchy but very valid issue here. I may be wrong, but I suspect he learned the bulk of his photographic knowledge long before digital, when you simply had to have a grasp of the basics to get anywhere at all. With digital it's so easy to let the camera make all the decisions for you and be largely content with a fairly successful hit rate, without addressing the issues of the problem shots. In many respects a modern DSLR puts the cart well before the horse for a newbie photographer, and some people will never really reverse that order, because they simply don't see the need to make the effort to.

From the outset, Talk Photography has been heavily slanted towards teaching and sharing good sound photographic knowledge, and it's largely responsible for my disgusting post count. It is indeed possible to come across as a complete and utter know all, which is something I'm certainly conscious of. I couldn't agree more that erroneous information, however well intentioned, shouldn't go uncorrected, but it's becoming more and more of an onerous task to even keep up with the number of new posts, let alone go around politely policing threads for duff info.

It doesn't make it any easier when an image with obvious technical issues gets half a dozen "Great shot!" type responses, which only serves to make one less likely to make the effort to argue.

White balance is one of a number of very common issues which crops up in images, time and time again, but often a post explaining the issues and with an edited image will receive no response at all from the OP, or quite often an "I preferred the original" reply- either from the OP or others.

It's a difficult problem Ed, and it's only going to get more difficult as the board gets bigger, but if anything will reduce TPF to the level of all the others out there, it's ignoring this issue I'm quite sure , so good on yer for bringing it up.