KNIFE CRIME

Jim Graham

Jim Graham

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Yes
When are politicians going to stop p*****g about and sort the problem.Whats your solution here's mine: Penalties
.1. Caught with a knife.......................5 years
2. using a knife on someone..............20 years
3. Killing someone with a knife.............Life
All the above with no remission no time off for good behavior and not in one of HM,s Hotels or holiday camps but a purpose built prison 23 hr lock up no association tv sky or pool table if they don't like it leave some rope in the cell to save the taxpayers expense. put it to a vote and the only objectors will be the usual namby pambys that got us into this mess anyway.
That's my rant over any more suggestions...........JIM :bang::bonk:
 
There aren't enough prison spaces to cope though are there?

I think they should fortify one of the Scottish islands or one of the Scilly Isles and send them all there like in that Ray Liotta film.
 
agreed, someone was nkifed at t in the park festival a few days ago, knobbers.
so glad theyre saying that theyll be evicted if they live in a council house.
 
I thikn its gotten very silly and something needs to be done about it, but the whole contry is going to pot at the min so it doesnt supprise me what is going on.
 
Pretty sure you get life for killing someone with or without a knife. :)

I have two problems with long prison sentences for carrying. Firstly the people who carry and use knives as weapons are generally either very scared or very thick, and in neither case are consequences going to make much difference. The second is that a reasonable number of people who go through a nasty phase in their adolescence end up becoming 'productive members of society'; but if you bang them in prison for a long term then this probability drops an awful lot. The US in particular seems to have perfected the art of turning bad lots into hardened criminals. I wouldn't want to follow them.

On the upside, according to the British Crime Survey, knife crime doesn't seem to actually be rising, or at least not very much. However violent crime by young people is, including knife crime, and so we get these rather shocking incidents of teenagers being stabbed. Knife crime is just one aspect of a violent culture among young people in certain inner-city areas, and the problem needs tackling as a whole rather than focusing on what happens to be the most convenient weapon. People can always find a way to arm themselves.

If we've seen anything over the last ten years it's that you can't just legislate away social problems.

Still it's worth remembering, while the press twist the statistics, that a lot more people die from falling down the stairs than from being stabbed.
 
Jamougha said:
*snip
On the upside, according to the British Crime Survey, knife crime doesn't seem to actually be rising, or at least not very much. However violent crime by young people is, including knife crime, and so we get these rather shocking incidents of teenagers being stabbed. Knife crime is just one aspect of a violent culture among young people in certain inner-city areas, and the problem needs tackling as a whole rather than focusing on what happens to be the most convenient weapon. People can always find a way to arm themselves.
*snip
Still it's worth remembering, while the press twist the statistics, that a lot more people die from falling down the stairs than from being stabbed.
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It's just the latest reporting craze that newspapers are using to sell themselves

Diana is dead, Beckham has moved to the US, Afghanistan/Iraq is old news, what else can the sell ?
 
Jamougha said:
Pretty sure you get life for killing someone with or without a knife. :)

I have two problems with long prison sentences for carrying. Firstly the people who carry and use knives as weapons are generally either very scared or very thick, and in neither case are consequences going to make much difference. The second is that a reasonable number of people who go through a nasty phase in their adolescence end up becoming 'productive members of society'; but if you bang them in prison for a long term then this probability drops an awful lot. The US in particular seems to have perfected the art of turning bad lots into hardened criminals. I wouldn't want to follow them.

On the upside, according to the British Crime Survey, knife crime doesn't seem to actually be rising, or at least not very much. However violent crime by young people is, including knife crime, and so we get these rather shocking incidents of teenagers being stabbed. Knife crime is just one aspect of a violent culture among young people in certain inner-city areas, and the problem needs tackling as a whole rather than focusing on what happens to be the most convenient weapon. People can always find a way to arm themselves.

If we've seen anything over the last ten years it's that you can't just legislate away social problems.

Still it's worth remembering, while the press twist the statistics, that a lot more people die from falling down the stairs than from being stabbed.
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The problem i have with your point of view is i cannot equate stabbing someone with a knife to falling down stairs,or the murder of the two French students stabbed over 200 times by someone who was scared,scared of being caught perhaps. Something you seem to forget that if these thugs are in jail they are no longer a threat to anyone else. In our media based society it would not take long for the message to get across if you carry a knife you go away for a long time.....JIM
 
Jim Graham said:
it would not take long for the message to get across if you carry a knife you go away for a long time.....JIM
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That assumes you're dealing with somebody who thinks/cares. What 'sane/rational' person stabs somebody because 'they dissed my gang"

People don't care what the goverment thinks, it all about peer pressure/culture. If a teenager thought they would be regarded as stupid/weak by their peers do you think they would use a knife/gun??

And as for trying to convince people smacked out of their heads on drugs :help:
 
"i tell you, its getting crazy. You cant go outside anymore without being stabbed. I went outside the other day and i saw one of those hoodies. I just know he was going to knife me and take my pension. Its just not like it was in the old days when all we got for breakfast was a lump of coal."


The reason people take carry knives is because they are scared. And it seems to be the job of the media to scared the living **** out of us with these over sensationalised stories as much as they possibly can!

Guess what? You are a zillion times more likely to get killed in a road traffic accident than you are by some kid with a macheté. And your kids are a heck of a lot more likely to get hit by a car when you push your pram into the road to stop the traffic than they are getting kidnapped by a p***.
Time everyone got some bloody perspective, its getting nearly as bad as HYS on BBC.co.uk. Yeah, hangings too good for them etc
 
mrgubby said:
It's just the latest reporting craze that newspapers are using to sell themselves

Diana is dead, Beckham has moved to the US, Afghanistan/Iraq is old news, what else can the sell ?
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:agree: in a nutshell!

In a couple of months it will be some other terrible scourge on society.
 
If it wasn't knives it would be something else. I just don't know why the kids are like this these days. I know it's 3 decades ago but I can remember owning (and carrying publicly) at least an 8" knife for scouting purposes. i used to walk to meetings with it clearly showing on my belt. No kids of that generation would consider using it for anything other than legitimate reasons.

Many of us will also remember when it was legal to own hand guns, until a couple of psycho's put paid to that with their massacres. Once again, something else a large number of law abiding people lost out on thanks to knee jerk politics. Has gun crime decreased? Nope, it's easier than ever to obtain a hand gun now (illegally of course).

So what happens next? If the kids start hurting or killing using their hands do we chop them off to prevent that? The reality is the culture, not the choice of weapon. Society needs to address that as well as punishing the current miscreants!

I'm with the Op on jail terms for for those who use knives for anything other than legitimate purposes. But I hope the politicians stop short of outlawing them like they seem to do for so many "offensive weapons". They should remember the person makes it offensive, otherwise it's just a weapon.
 
Jim Graham said:
When are politicians going to stop p*****g about and sort the problem.Whats your solution here's mine: Penalties
.1. Caught with a knife.......................5 years
2. using a knife on someone..............20 years
3. Killing someone with a knife.............Life
All the above with no remission no time off for good behavior and not in one of HM,s Hotels or holiday camps but a purpose built prison 23 hr lock up no association tv sky or pool table if they don't like it leave some rope in the cell to save the taxpayers expense. put it to a vote and the only objectors will be the usual namby pambys that got us into this mess anyway.
That's my rant over any more suggestions...........JIM :bang::bonk:
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Basically it's out of the governments hands. They can't win. Either people accuse them of creating a nanny state or not doing enough to fix a problem. This problem can now only be solved by the people of this country. So start doing something about it.

I was reading in the Economist some interesting stats about knife crime. There are less deaths from violent crime, but more people are being seriously injured because non-fatal attacks are becoming more violent.
 
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Usual problem, innit? Everybody gets penalised because the establishment is so far up its politically correct arse that it cannot or will not deal with the real problem.

My father bought me my first penknife for my 8th birthday and over the decades I've had a number of pocket knives. As a kid I *always* carried a pocket knife; until about a decade ago I usually had one about my person somewhere and until very recently there was one in the car somewhere - because I did a lot of camping and outdoor activities. It was a TOOL, not a WEAPON.

I would STILL have one in the car as a matter of routine if I thought the establishment was capable of differentiating between a 47-year old professional bint and some inner-city pile of semi-human gangland sh*t.

When you've had an acquaintance burned to death in his car following a crash because no-one could get him out of his seatbelt, having a sharp knife about you just seems like a very sensible move.
 
send them to afghanistan to defend themselves with their knife, lets see how brave they are then. I'm sure that'd be a deterrant of some kind.
 
I agree with a lot of the above.

But I still think if you kill/stab/seriously hurt someone, you should at least be locked away for 15- 20 years!

If there aren't enough prisons, then build some bloody more, nothing p***** me off more than to see some violent idiot get less punishment for stabbing/mugging/twocking than I would get for dropping a piece of litter.

These judges who sit in their ivory towers need to get back in touch with reality & smell the roses.

Rant over.;)

Spence
 
spencer said:
I agree with a lot of the above.

But I still think if you kill/stab/seriously hurt someone, you should at least be locked away for 15- 20 years!

If there aren't enough prisons, then build some bloody more, nothing p***** me off more than to see some violent idiot get less punishment for stabbing/mugging/twocking than I would get for dropping a piece of litter.

These judges who sit in their ivory towers need to get back in touch with reality & smell the roses.

Rant over.;)

Spence
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:agree: These scum need to be taken off the street
 
I find it quite "amusing" that because the recent high profile stabbings have happened in London suddenly something needs to be done about it. Up here gun crime is rare, but knives have been the weapon of choice for as long as most people can remember. The casualty dept at the Royal Infirmary in Glasgow is full of knife victims every weekend, but it's not England, so it's not newsworthy.

The legal means exist to jail those found in possesion of a knife for 5 years, but the sad fact is thatyou are far more likely to be jailed for not paying your tv licence, than for carrying a weapon such as a stanley knife.

The nonsense that Jaqui Smith spouted about the government wanting to take young hoodlums round casualty wards to witness the results of their handiwork just goes to show how totally out of touch with the real world the current goverment are.Do they really imagine that showing some wee ned (chav for those of you south of the border) someone with a knife knife wound that they inflicted will make them stop? The mentality that sees using a knife on someone for "fun" would be more likely to view this a great laugh, not a punishment.

I blame the parents.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
I find it quite "amusing" that because the recent high profile stabbings have happened in London suddenly something needs to be done about it. Up here gun crime is rare, but knives have been the weapon of choice for as long as most people can remember. The casualty dept at the Royal Infirmary in Glasgow is full of knife victims every weekend, but it's not England, so it's not newsworthy.
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Glasgow used to be infamous for it's knife gangs in the 70's and 80's.
 
badgerbaiter said:
as a matter of interest...
1) anyone here ever been stabbed?
2) seen a kid with a knife?
3) know anyone thats been stabbed?
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1. no
2. yes
3. yes

Worked at a south london school where sadly knifes were all too commonplace amongst the students.
 
THe problem with punishment is that it costs money and as we all know we are very under taxed in this country :eek: If the crime is about money such as not paying council tax then you go to prison. Unfortunately life is cheap :cuckoo:
 
On the subject of prison overcrowding.

If offenders were imprisoned for the full term that their crimes could attract, then the recidivist thieves and other miscreants would begin to see prison as an unpleasant place to be rather than a minor inconvenience and it would become a deterrant. Ergo, they wouldn't commit their crimes and there would be more prison places for violent or other anti-social offenders.
 
Comus said:
On the subject of prison overcrowding.

If offenders were imprisoned for the full term that their crimes could attract, then the recidivist thieves and other miscreants would begin to see prison as an unpleasant place to be rather than a minor inconvenience and it would become a deterrant. Ergo, they wouldn't commit their crimes and there would be more prison places for violent or other anti-social offenders.
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The sad thing is that many recidivists have a better standard of living behind bars than they do in the outside world. Prison should be a punishment and a deterent.

Rather than single cells with a tv/dvd player and a playstation, it should be 23 hours a day in one with with open-barred doors with no luxuries and no privacy, but I guess that would be in breach of their human rights, wouldn't it? :bang:
 
Totally agree, prison used as a deterrent, never becaue as you say it will be a breach of their human rights, prison is a doddle, we have several contracts with a group of prisons just outside Worcester, I usede to visit regularly but no more.

I did 24 years in the Army and believe me prison is a real doddle, as for the knife crime, I don't have any answers I'm afraid, the only thing I will tell you is that it takes a lot of force to knife someone, you have to force the knife through the clothing (sometimes several layers) then you may hit a rib or other bone (dependant on where your stabbing the victim) and then you feel the warm blood oozing over your knife carrying hand, it takes someone with determination to carry out such an attack, it's one of the most personal attacks. Shooting someone is far easier, line them up, squeeze the trigger, see them fall, easy.

As I say I don't have the answers but I'm sure it's society that is to blame :shrug:



Flash In The Pan said:
The sad thing is that many recidivists have a better standard of living behind bars than they do in the outside world. Prison should be a punishment and a deterent.

Rather than single cells with a tv/dvd player and a playstation, it should be 23 hours a day in one with with open-barred doors with no luxuries and no privacy, but I guess that would be in breach of their human rights, wouldn't it? :bang:
Click to expand...
 
Jim Graham said:
When are politicians going to stop p*****g about and sort the problem.Whats your solution here's mine: Penalties
.1. Caught with a knife.......................5 years
2. using a knife on someone..............20 years
3. Killing someone with a knife.............Life
All the above with no remission no time off for good behavior and not in one of HM,s Hotels or holiday camps but a purpose built prison 23 hr lock up no association tv sky or pool table if they don't like it leave some rope in the cell to save the taxpayers expense. put it to a vote and the only objectors will be the usual namby pambys that got us into this mess anyway.
That's my rant over any more suggestions...........JIM :bang::bonk:
Click to expand...

Point 1 would prove very successful in breaking up evil gangs, like the Boy Scouts. And members of strange religious cults like Fishermen.
50% could probably be charged with rape as they will also be equipped for that too.

Point 2 is also very valid but we should also consider:
Using a fork on someone...........15 years
the particularly vicious crime of "spooning" someone..........20 years
Pointy sticks/pencils............15 years
Shooting them with a DSLR............life, obviously

Point 3 fair enough, killing someone with a knife is far worse than trying to kill someone with a knife but being really bad at it.

Alternatively we could save the huge legal costs associated with bringing criminal charges against anyone caught with a piece of very sharp paper and concentrate on incarcerating anyone who proves themself to be violent towards another living creature for any motive other than self defense.
We could simultaneously start saying NO to children and making them understand that they do not have the right to do whatever the hell they like because they are so "special".

So:
1 Beating someone up in the pub because they looked at your bird.....20 years
2 Assault with any form of weapon likely to mame or kill.........Life
3 Giving in to your brats tantrums at the supermarket checkout........A swift boot up the a**e

There are countless examples, I'm sure you can think of some?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
The sad thing is that many recidivists have a better standard of living behind bars than they do in the outside world. Prison should be a punishment and a deterent.

Rather than single cells with a tv/dvd player and a playstation, it should be 23 hours a day in one with with open-barred doors with no luxuries and no privacy, but I guess that would be in breach of their human rights, wouldn't it? :bang:
Click to expand...

Agree 100%
 
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Flash In The Pan said:
The sad thing is that many recidivists have a better standard of living behind bars than they do in the outside world. Prison should be a punishment and a deterent.

Rather than single cells with a tv/dvd player and a playstation, it should be 23 hours a day in one with with open-barred doors with no luxuries and no privacy, but I guess that would be in breach of their human rights, wouldn't it? :bang:
Click to expand...

In the local parlance of the estate I grew up on, getting banged up was actually known as "Going to Butlins".
What does that tell us? :shrug:
 
It is interesting to read some of the replies, those that agree look on it as a serious subject that needs sorting,those that do not tend to make light of it but suggest nothing interesting eh. Perhaps they cannot think further than mockery. What is the saying " all it takes for evil to succeed is good men do nothing " As a former soldier who served mostly in N Ireland i have noticed that violence only subsided when the majority of the population rejected it. have we reached an acceptable level of violence on our streets where you cannot go into city and town centers at night without fear of being attacked ? How many MP,s would stand up and say enough is enough without fear of the liberal loonies or perhaps even their own party leader's if any. There are a lot of good young people out there many more than there are yobs but their voices are drowned out because of what we see as the norm. Some say that crime is on the decrease but PERCEPTION IS REALITY for most people............JIM
 
spannerdude said:
Point 1 would prove very successful in breaking up evil gangs, like the Boy Scouts. And members of strange religious cults like Fishermen.
50% could probably be charged with rape as they will also be equipped for that too.

Point 2 is also very valid but we should also consider:
Using a fork on someone...........15 years
the particularly vicious crime of "spooning" someone..........20 years
Pointy sticks/pencils............15 years
Shooting them with a DSLR............life, obviously

Point 3 fair enough, killing someone with a knife is far worse than trying to kill someone with a knife but being really bad at it.

Alternatively we could save the huge legal costs associated with bringing criminal charges against anyone caught with a piece of very sharp paper and concentrate on incarcerating anyone who proves themself to be violent towards another living creature for any motive other than self defense.
We could simultaneously start saying NO to children and making them understand that they do not have the right to do whatever the hell they like because they are so "special".

So:
1 Beating someone up in the pub because they looked at your bird.....20 years
2 Assault with any form of weapon likely to mame or kill.........Life
3 Giving in to your brats tantrums at the supermarket checkout........A swift boot up the a**e

There are countless examples, I'm sure you can think of some?
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, but how many scouts/fisherman do you see hanging around street corners at night or in town centres?:shrug:

I,m not saying everyone should be locked up for carrying a knife, but anyone who uses extreme violence should be.

Spence
 
Funny how the Gov want to ban everything except the sale of knives to divs, you would of thought that with all the CCTV about no one would do anything anymore and then the Gov would have us all living in fear as they wish us to so that we have no voice and they can do whatever they want, Tax, Fuel, Crime, Poor Wages, Immigration basically ruin the country.



Oh wait :bonk:
 
spencer said:
I understand what you're saying, but how many scouts/fisherman do you see hanging around street corners at night or in town centres?:shrug:

I,m not saying everyone should be locked up for carrying a knife, but anyone who uses extreme violence should be.

Spence
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My point exactly. Perhaps I shouldn't make light of a serious subject but the proposal of banning anything which can be used as a weapon is risible. Jim, with your army training you must know more than anyone that the most innocuous items can be a lethal weapon if used in the right way.

We have these debates time and time again but nobody will admit there is an elephant in the room.

Knives do not kill people. People with no respect for others and no fear of retribution do.

We are all responsible for the state of our society, it's not just the hand wringing liberal pc brigade who argue that prison should be for rehabilitation not punishment. . It's everyone who marches down to their kids school to have it out with a teacher over what they said to our little Johny. Everyone who tells their kids the headmaster can't touch them. Everyone who tells their mate where they can get some moody gear. Everyone who keeps electing politicians who are ever more lenient on crime because criminals can vote too.

I mock it Jim, not because I don't think it's serious. But because I recognise how serious it is when the consensus of opinion thinks that a realistic preventative for choking on your food is to ban food!

Welcome to Golgafrincham
 
Jim Graham said:
Some say that crime is on the decrease but PERCEPTION IS REALITY for most people............JIM
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It's just the way they write the figures, ambulances were being tied up for hours after picking patients up because of the way the government calculates figures, they wanted patients in A&E to be assessed within a specified time, if that wasn't possible they were kept in the ambulance until it was, if they weren't in the hospital the clock didn't start so the hospital met the governments requirements,it's all ********
 
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