Jurgen Teller Documentary

big soft moose said:
Seriously this is like playing chess with a pigeon - i'm not talking about Teller himself doing that, i'm talking about the overly reverent description of work that is (in my view) nothing special , by the chin stroking latte rati - to whit the quote I posted above...
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This thread is about Teller. As far as I can see, he doesn't talk "overly reverently" about his work so I don't understand what you're trying to say.
 
I found it "interesting" in a sort of "this is manly a lot of artistic "drivel" being spouted kind of way. Don't get me wrong I do like his work but it reminded me a bit too much of some of the lectures I attended when doing my BA and had to deconstruct the paradigm blah blah blah
 
Byker28i said:
Moose like pretty pictures, doesn't like any for of art, it's all b****x, he tells us numerous times in so many threads that tries to discuss other srtists work.
That's fine, stuff is subjective, just it becomes a little wearing with the same generalistic drivel trotted out in every thread. We get it - you think it's crap, only that's it - it's crap with arty b****x writing trying to justify it, same as every other arty farty photographer.

Only it doesn't work that way. It's meant to engage, challenge, not always be pretty. I don't understand fashion but I cans see the creativity that goes into it and not be dismissive and blinkered. Same with a lot of the other stuff moose dismisses.
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See that isnt true at all I like lots of art - not as much art photography admittedly because a lot of that strikes me as being deliberately contreversial rather than actually really saying anything ... theres also a very odd double standard where its okay to dismiss the work of people like Cornish, Noton, Waite etc, and do repeatedly post the same "generic drivel" about them across two or three threads, but its not okay to challenge the idea that anyone like Teller is anything other than a creative genius (like its fine to dismis peter lik, but not gurtzky and so on)

You are right about one thing the same old same old argument is getting very tired ... I'd love to be able to actually have an intelligent and constructive discussion about art , where the response to questioning why for example working with a G12 and onboard flash actually engages or challenges , more so than taking the same photo to a higher techincal standard , without the response being "oh well we've not seen any of your work yadda yadda

I'd be happy to keep an open mind if someone can actually explain what i don't get and discuss it properly instead of the defensive reaction that any challenge to the idea that 'pretty photos arent worthy and conversely that photos that arent prety are automatically engaging and worthwhile', tends to evince
 
ZoneV said:
This thread is about Teller. As far as I can see, he doesn't talk "overly reverently" about his work so I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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But people do in describing him - hence the defensive reaction to the suggestion that he isnt an artistic genius
 
Ed Sutton said:
I dunno, but I bet the pigeon wouldn't object to posting it's photos.
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I don't object to posting my photos either, so long as the trolls leave the thread alone (I'm not reffering to you or anyone in this thread here - the reason i stopped posting for crit was the asinine behaviour of a bunch of people who's crit was based on slagging me down not the merit or otherwise of the photo) - but this isnt really the place for it - if it makes you happy i'll post some work shortly , i'll even tag you in the thread

edit to say it will need to wait ti i get home - i'm on a work laptop and the only shots i have handy are those from my abortive 52 , which are already available https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/bsms-52-2015-watery-added.577693/page-2
 
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big soft moose said:
I'd love to be able to actually have an intelligent and constructive discussion about art , w
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Okay , lets rewind before this degenerates into a lock - i'm happy to be open minded, but I'm not getting Tellers work

Taking this as an example http://www.lehmannmaupin.com/artists/juergen-teller (linked rather than pictured because of some nudity - its the self portrait with charlotte rampling) can someone who does get it explain a) what mesage is he intending to convey , and b) how the picture acheives that ?
 
big soft moose said:
But people do in describing him - hence the defensive reaction to the suggestion that he isnt an artistic genius
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How is it his fault how other people describe his work? Why hold that against the photographer?

You're not forming a very clear argument and it sounds like you just have a bee in your bonnet with people who produce work that you don't understand yet other people love.

Wouldn't you be better off just ignoring work you don't like instead of dismissing it, especially when it involves such a respected and established photographer?
 
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ZoneV said:
Wouldn't you be better off just ignoring work you don't like instead of dismissing it?
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because forums are for ignoring photography instead of discussing it ... I get the sense that you'd be happier if the thread was ful of people oohing and ahhing over what a genius teller is, insted of challenging that peconception....

Its also notable that you've chosen to ignore #49 - i guess having a row is more fun for some people than an invitation to have a sensible discussion
 
If you're auditing posts and responses, you've missed a few too. :)

Come on, Pete. Show us a picture. :D
 
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ZoneV said:
Come on, Pete. Show us a picture. :D
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post #48

returning to the subject of the thread - whats the meaning of that teller photo (in your opinion) and how does it convey it, or if you don't like that one pick a different one to discuss - you say you want an open minded discussion - but you seem awfully reluctant to have one
 
I've tried having a discussion, Pete, but you aren't capable of forming a coherent argument, like I've already pointed out to you.

But please, don't stop on my behalf - it's quite entertaining.
 
:tumbleweed:
 
ZoneV said:
I've tried having a discussion, Pete, but you aren't capable of forming a coherent argument, like I've already pointed out to you.

But please, don't stop on my behalf - it's quite entertaining.
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And it appears you aren't capable of explaining jurgen tellers pictures... I'll be charitable and assume thats because you don't know what they mean either, rather than that you just enjoy arguing for the hell of it...

(FWIW I did pose a coherent argument, you just failed to respond to it, i assume because personal attacks are more fun for you )
 
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big soft moose said:
I don't object to posting my photos either, so long as the trolls leave the thread alone (I'm not reffering to you or anyone in this thread here - the reason i stopped posting for crit was the asinine behaviour of a bunch of people who's crit was based on slagging me down not the merit or otherwise of the photo) - but this isnt really the place for it
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Not knowing what went on I'm happy to remain in ignorance. But I'm sure nobody in this thread would slag the photographer instead of the phonographs.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Not knowing what went on I'm happy to remain in ignorance. But I'm sure nobody in this thread would slag the photographer instead of the phonographs.
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well ive given you a link to my 52 which features a few zoo and landscape shots - if you want to see people you'll have to wait til i get home as i don't have any on this laptop (and as ive mentioned i don't do studio work - so they'll be either wedding based or environmental anyway).

However if i put them in this thread I'm certain some prat will report me for hijacking so i'll start a new one and tag you.
 
big soft moose said:
And it appears you aren't capable of explaining jurgen tellers pictures... I'll be charitable and assume thats because you don't know what they mean either, rather than that you just enjoy arguing for the hell of it...

(FWIW I did pose a coherent argument, you just failed to respond to it, i assume because personal attacks are more fun for you )
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Pete, you're embarrassing yourself now. Have you no shame?
 
TBH I'm not that bothered now you've explained why you don't post photos. I have no interest in wedding photography - so would have nothing to say about it. Which is why I don't post in wedding threads. :)
 
Post 44 - good reply moose
Post 49 - well, spooned up to charlotte Rampling naked - I wish I had the artistic front to suggest that! :D
This video explains a little more
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/video/2013/jan/24/photography-juergen-teller-ica-video

"For me," says Teller, "that whole series is about a love relationship between a glamorous older lady and a slightly overweight younger man, and how they can be sweet and tender and silly and stupid and all of it together."

"The idea of stripping [the subject] until you're defenceless – he's wonderful at that," says Tonchi. "He exposes himself to encourage you in where he's going. That's been a very important part of his career, taking off his clothes and creating embarrassment for himself."

I guess working in the fashion industry then nudity almost becomes a daily occurrence. I once assisted at a fashion shoot, 5am in the morning, London location, so I left very early. The models were treated like a piece of meat, clothes horses, small knickers, no bras, getting changed just around the corner by a rack of clothes, hurry, hurry. Didn't like it.


I saw the three vivienne westwood ones and the orange overall colours really drew the eye. Prominently displayed they were the centre piece of the room

Mark-Blower-130204-Juergen-Teller-ICA-0008.jpg



As for his style - it's described as His photographic style is instantly recognisable – a harshly lit anti-glamour, shot on film (not digital) and never retouched.
 
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ZoneV said:
Pete, you're embarrassing yourself now. Have you no shame?
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and you arent covering yourself with glory either - just answer the damn question
 
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Byker28i said:
Post 44 - good reply moose
Post 49 - well, spooned up to charlotte Rampling naked - I wish I had the artistic front to suggest that! :D
This video explains a little more
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/video/2013/jan/24/photography-juergen-teller-ica-video

I saw the three vivienne westwood ones and the orange overall colours really drew the eye. Prominently displayed they were the centre piece of the room

Mark-Blower-130204-Juergen-Teller-ICA-0008.jpg
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Interesting video - though i'm not sure i agree that you need to photograph someone naked in order to really show their personality (I certainly wouldnt have the front to suggest that) - i'm not sure what her nakedness brings to the photos you link above (other than shock factor) though i'd agree that the orange tones have impact and draw the eye ... its also notable that the work has more visual impact as a collective display thanthey do viewed individually on the interwebs

While I can appreciate them aesthetically better in that context, i'm still not getting the deeper meaning , assuming there is one
 
Ed Sutton said:
TBH I'm not that bothered now you've explained why you don't post photos. I have no interest in wedding photography - so would have nothing to say about it. Which is why I don't post in wedding threads. :)
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I don't just photograph weddings - I do that to earn money sure, but my true interest lies more towards the wildlife and landscape genres - i'd suspect the lions share falls into the 'pretty pictures' rather than the 'deeper meaning' school though

As i said in #44 I am interested in art for arts sake ( I carve and turn wood as well) , but i tend to have issues with some conceptual art especially when it appears to be nothing special... that said if we can lift the level of the discussion back to where it belongs i'm happy to keep an open mind on the artistic worth of Tellers work if someone can actually explain where that lies
 
Anyway, now that Pete's found his calpol, where were we? :D
 
Byker28i said:
Sorry moose - editted and added a bit to that post

Theres a bit more of a background here
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/jan/06/juergen-teller-fame-laid-bare

Seems some ladies like to get naked for him,
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Again its an interesting article and explanation - but iI'm feeling a disconect between what he/the journo says the pictures mean and what if anything they say - for example the explanation of the nunrberg project makes sense , that the plants growing in the walls where nazi rallies were held makes a statement about the impermanence of ideas vs the permanence of the natural world... but the pictures themselves don't say that to me , in nearly all cases they could be anywhere and don't have any context to show that they were shot at nurnberg, or to make the wider statement.

they also arent technically very good - and assuming that this is a deliberate choice - i'm not understanding what if anything the lack of technical skill in taking the pictures is supposed to say
 
ZoneV said:
Anyway, now that Pete's found his calpol, where were we? :D
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we were waiting for you to say something insightful - I suspect we could be waiting for a while (and for as long as you keep the digs and gibes up i'm going to respond in kind... if you actually manage to be adult about this discussion i'll respond in kind to that too)
 
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big soft moose said:
we were waiting for you to say something insightful - I suspect we could be waiting for a while
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Coming from a bonafide armchair expert, that's art. :D

"Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy". Damn right! :LOL:
 
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big soft moose said:
As i said in #44 I am interested in art for arts sake ( I carve and turn wood as well) , but i tend to have issues with some conceptual art especially when it appears to be nothing special... that said if we can lift the level of the discussion back to where it belongs i'm happy to keep an open mind on the artistic worth of Tellers work if someone can actually explain where that lies
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Just as I'm no fan of wedding photography I'm no fan of fashion photography either. However, I can see a nod to art historical painting in Teller's Westwood portraits, and I find his 'Go Sees' an interesting concept - more so when he explained it in the programme. Teller cam across well, IMO. I usually find it enlightening to listen to an 'artist' talk about their work no matter whether I like their work or not. I'm interested in their thought processes, which is what matters far more than their techniques.

The interviewer on the other hand struck me as a fawning sycophant deserving of a good slap!
 
big soft moose said:
we were waiting for you to say something insightful - I suspect we could be waiting for a while (and for as long as you keep the digs and gibes up i'm going to respond in kind... if you actually manage to be adult about this discussion i'll respond in kind to that too)
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Responding to the edit: You are the one who came into this discussion like a child, Pete, as you often do in threads like this. Don't start crying just because you got your arse handed to you. ;)
 
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ZoneV said:
Responding to the edit: You are the one who came into this discussion like a child, Pete, as you often do in threads like thus. Don't start crying just because you got your arse handed to you. ;)
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You have a very stange definition of "arse handed to you" from where i'm standing you made yourself look like a bit of a prat and then resorted to personal insults when you realised you couldnt actually explain tellers work any more than I can... however in the interests of what could be quite an interesting discussion re bykers links and not getting the thread locked i'm happy to be the bigger man if you stop with the childish personal gibes (of course if you continue to act like a troll until the thread gets locked, we'll all know where your true motivations lie)
 
big soft moose said:
Someone will be along shotly to say that techical details arent important in art or some such rubbish...
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Your opening gambit in this thread. Who's the troll? It was ticking along nicely until you chimed in with your usual nonsense.

Think what you like, Pete, I couldn't care less. :)
 
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Ed Sutton said:
. However, I can see a nod to art historical painting in Teller's Westwood portraits,!
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See thats interesting , because I hadn't looked at them that way til you said that, but now that you have i can see what you mean ... if you added a few cherubs you could be looking at an old master (though mostly they were a little less explicit) ... I still wonder about whether some of his desire to include nakedness is for shock value (ie to get talked about) , as the westwood photos would to my mind be equally strong if she wasnt fully naked
 
ZoneV said:
Your opening gambit in this thread. Who's the troll?

Think what you like, Pete, I couldn't care less. :)
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I'm sorry you are unable to take the offered olive branch ... that aside my opening gambit states what my position is quite cogently, but that doesnt mean i wouldnt have been happy to discuss whether that was correct (the nicely snipped quote also includes the bit where i agreed with another poster who was saying roughly the same thing) - or indeed the interesting point of discussion ie why is it that techincal details arent important, and what does deliberately shooting a technically poor shot bring to Teller's art ? (especially as he has the time to take a technically good one - this isnt bresson seizing the descicive moment, tTller is after all posing and creating that moment )

also responding to your edit - if by ticking along nicely you mean everyone agreeing then yes but everyone saying the same thing and oohing and ahhing about his unique talent isnt much of a discussion. I must have missed the rule that says that when discussing art only positions that agree the artist is simply wonderful are allowed

"if you want to challenge the 'usual nonsense' fee free to do so - but it would make a change to find a coherent arguement as to why creating techincally poor work is the better choice for Teller (as I assume he must have the techincal skills so it isnt incompetence), taking refuge in "oh can you do better then " and other such pettyness doesnt add a lot to the debate
 
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Ed Sutton said:
The interviewer on the other hand struck me as a fawning sycophant deserving of a good slap!
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My god , we agree :) ... that was what originally put the idea about over reverence into my mind
 
Sorry to interrupt yet another dumb argument, but back on topic, I actually like some of his work, some I just don't get. But he comes across as a genuinely decent guy who is passionate about his photography and absorbs himself into his shoots
I love the fact he has created such a relaxed atmosphere he can just strip and have a cuddle without it being seedy or sexual, but he also has the ability to lay on a piano and display his arse, I don't get that
A lot of his ethos comes from the ridiculous fashion industry behaviour, so good on him for thumbing his nose at it with the help of some big names. I wouldn't be brave enough to shoot his style so I'm very happy to see talented people pushing the boundaries of photography
Sorry for getting that off my chest, back to arguing chaps :D
 
BruceMo said:
Sorry to interrupt yet another dumb argument, but back on topic, I actually like some of his work, some I just don't get. But he comes across as a genuinely decent guy who is passionate about his photography and absorbs himself into his shoots
I love the fact he has created such a relaxed atmosphere he can just strip and have a cuddle without it being seedy or sexual, but he also has the ability to lay on a piano and display his arse, I don't get that
A lot of his ethos comes from the ridiculous fashion industry behaviour, so good on him for thumbing his nose at it with the help of some big names. I wouldn't be brave enough to shoot his style so I'm very happy to see talented people pushing the boundaries of photography
Sorry for getting that off my chest, back to arguing chaps :D
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Excellent post. My faith is restored. :)
 
big soft moose said:
See thats interesting , because I hadn't looked at them that way til you said that, but now that you have i can see what you mean ... if you added a few cherubs you could be looking at an old master (though mostly they were a little less explicit) ... I still wonder about whether some of his desire to include nakedness is for shock value (ie to get talked about) , as the westwood photos would to my mind be equally strong if she wasnt fully naked
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I wasn't thinking of the splayed legs picture, but the reclining ones certainly echo classical poses. See also Richard Billingham's mother - http://www.culture24.org.uk/asset_arena/3/96/02/420693/v0_master.jpg - which echoes Goya's Maja - http://www.wga.hu/art/g/goya/5/502goya.jpg

big soft moose said:
My god , we agree :) ... that was what originally put the idea about over reverence into my mind
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Oh I'm quite cynical about some of the excesses of the art world, Pete. I just choose to chuckle to myself at that which I find ridiculous and let them get on with it rather than rant pointlessly on t'internet.;)
 
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