Pookeyhead
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Jurgen Teller Documentary
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Watched it a few nights ago, was quite good, although Dercon seemed a bit too reverent. 17 min 45 seconds in he's going on about the grotesque and you can see Teller's face thinking 'u wot m8?' Could have done without seeing as much of his splayed arse and cock and balls and Vivienne Westwood naked.
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Pookeyhead
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He's right though... it is in the grotesque tradition... which is why we look at it. I don;t like his work.. not one bit... but damn it.. he makes me look, and he makes me talk about it.
Delta Skies
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I watched the documentary on catch up last night and just don't get it. Ok I can sort of see some of his philosophy behind why he takes the images but it's the quality of his images that I can't understand why this makes him a celebrity photographer. Poor composition, white balance issues and horrific shadows on the background make me wonder why we even bother trying to perfect the art and techniques of photography. Apologies for the slating but as I said I just don't get it.
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Someone will be along shotly to say that techical details arent important in art or some such rubbish... frankly i'm with you , IMO too often these days 'oh buts its art' is used as an excuse for sloppy techincal work (of course a technically perfect boring shot can often be less interesting than a technically lacking shot with interest or pathos - but thats not to say that a techincally good shot with interest/patho wouldnt have been better still )
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And Jimi Hendrix used distortion and feedback
Delta Skies
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....and some illegal substances (allegedly)
Someone else I've never got (and I used to play guitar).
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I think the fact that he blatantly breaks so many rules that we amateurs consider sacrosant, yet is still regarded as one of the top photographers in his field tells us all we need to know.
Just join the dots.
that his work is 'art' and therefore normal rules don't apply , possibly
It definitely doesnt tell us that shooting like that and claiming its art is a sensible route for any amateur wanting to improve , though FWIW I'd not consider any rule sacrosanct , "rules are the guidance of wise men but the blind obedience of fools"
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....and some illegal substances (allegedly)
Someone else I've never got (and I used to play guitar).
not so much "alledgedly" there given that he choked to death on his own vomit while out of his tree on barbiturates
I tend to agree though that while he could play he may be wasnt the amazing unique talent that hype tends to make him out to be
ZoneV
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not so much "alledgedly" there given that he choked to death on his own vomit while out of his tree on barbiturates
Would you say he was an 'art' guitarist?
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the overly reverent way in which people talk about his work is very reminiscent of the way some people discuss art....
coming back to teller, some of the descriptions of his work are close to laughable " He likes to work in a raw, overexposed style , with on board flash " , really , :bang:
we may as well write "BSM was one of the great undiscovered artistic talents of his time , in his 30s he regularly got paralytic and took B&W shots of his feet for no apparent reason .... "
ZoneV
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Why? I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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that what hes doing (Teller not Hendrix) is nothing special in my opinion - In my view it doesnt require any great photographic talent to take a bunch of badly exposed/over exposed shots whilst using the onboard flash ... thousands iff not millions of amateurs do that every day
Now I'm not necessarily suggesting he doesnt understand lighting, but if he does that means that he knows how to take a good picture but has decided not to for 'artistic' reasons - which if we are being charitable could be said to be the 'art' (in the same way that some consider 4 and half minuites of silence in D minor to be art ) , but could also be less charitably said to be being deliberately contrversial in order to be talked about ... which is clever marketting but still doesnt make him a great artist or photographer in my opinion.
I'm also not suggest that the collection of slightly out of focus pictures of my feet , taken on C-41 whilst out of my nut on peach snchapps and cider are in fact in any way art - but it strikes me that if I were to say that they were, and market them cleverly enough , it's not a massive leap of imagination to see the latterati sitting arround earnestly discussing their meaning.
Now I'm not necessarily suggesting he doesnt understand lighting, but if he does that means that he knows how to take a good picture but has decided not to for 'artistic' reasons - which if we are being charitable could be said to be the 'art' (in the same way that some consider 4 and half minuites of silence in D minor to be art ) , but could also be less charitably said to be being deliberately contrversial in order to be talked about ... which is clever marketting but still doesnt make him a great artist or photographer in my opinion.
I'm also not suggest that the collection of slightly out of focus pictures of my feet , taken on C-41 whilst out of my nut on peach snchapps and cider are in fact in any way art - but it strikes me that if I were to say that they were, and market them cleverly enough , it's not a massive leap of imagination to see the latterati sitting arround earnestly discussing their meaning.
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....and some illegal substances (allegedly)
Someone else I've never got (and I used to play guitar).
There are lots of things in the world that don’t appeal to me (for example tripe and indeed a lot of the tripe on telly) but I'm happy to walk on by; live and let live; accept that people have different tastes. Teller studied photography so I am happy to assume he knows how to compose and expose a shot, I guess he is asking us to question what he does. How many of the thousands of images on here and elsewhere cause such debate? I don’t want to live in a homogenously bland world of pretty images composed to some arbitrary set of rules and neither it seems do you because you like to debate this sort of thing.
ZoneV
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If it's that easy, why don't you try it? It'd be nice to see a few images from you for a change, if nothing else.
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I don't think they are really - main stream music is the analogue of what a lot of the art lobby here would consider craft photography ... ie that the musician is competent enough with his instrument and is certainly listenable , but isnt really saying anything/anything new.
This is why some 'art' music is (in my opinion) virtually unlistenable - because for artistic reasons they are moving away from the accepted norm and striving to be different - ergo music that you don't want to listen to , except to talk about its artistic merit, is potentially the analogue of photos you wouldnt put on your wall and only look at to discuss what they mean ... while the sort of music you'd play at a party is the equivalent of a prettty picture on the wall.
Ed Sutton
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If it's that easy, why don't you try it? It'd be nice to see a few images from you for a change, if nothing else.
You mean apart from the several thousand i take every year ... I don't recall seeing many from you either if we are going back down that same tired road
as to why don't i try it , i prefer my 'work' to be properly exposed - wedding clients tend to throw their toys on the floor when you f*** up the exposures. (and yes before anyone says it there is a thread on here from me a few years back with a knackered exposure leading to dark faces - but at least I'm not claiming poor exposure is part of my 'style')
I don't do studio portraiture, but if i did I wouldnt be using onboard flash - and anything with harsh shadows and knackered white balance would be in the reject bin
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ZoneV
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I'm not the one dismissing other people's work though, am I Pete?
You're doing it again - if your work is so good, why don't you show us?
PS I posted two pictures yesterday. When was the last time you posted one?
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Ed Sutton
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It's a pity they're not playing a piece they composed themselves.
I think that might have been stretching it a bit. Although I believe Brian Eno was a member.
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I don't know David was pretty dismissive of the work from Joe Cornish and co on about three threads - but i don't recall seeing any great landscape photography from him. Also the difference here is that I have only said I don't rate teller as my opinion, not as though its a fact.
I also don't recall saying my work was better than tellers - as i said i don't do studio photography ... however are you really claiming that badly exposed shots with harsh shadows are exemplars of good studio photography.
Do you seriously believe it is difficult to b****r up exposure whilst using the pop up flash ? a quick look at flickr or facebook would show otherwise... the only difficult thing is getting people to believe that its art
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Ed Sutton
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Mmm waffles
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"Clearly as an artist i'm known for my harsh over exposed style, while the way in which the glare conceals the identity of the participants is a paradigm for the harsh uncaring world in which we live in which personal identity is often obscured by our materialistic culture, the photo being on its side offers a counter point to thisd harsh societal critique by capturing the topsy turvey world in which we live " (Or alternately it a s*** picture in which i was going for a silohuette and buggered up the exposure, and i count be arsed to open photoshop to rotate it )
(for the hard of thinking, i'm not saying that this shot is any good) I also need a better thesaurus as i note ive used harsh three times in my arty b*****ks
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ZoneV
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Byker28i
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Actually he's done a fair bit- ghosts in the archive he showed on here.
Byker28i
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Is that all he does? Quite liked his work with Bjork, not a hint of studio and onboard flash there.
http://www.bjork.fr/juergen-teller-1993
This stuff looked interesting commercial work
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/fashion/10TELLER.html?_r=0
and I've seen his stuff with Cindy Sherman. None of which really falls into your descripton of badly exposed shots with harsh shadows
Byker28i
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http://www.viviennewestwood.com/collections/campaign/spring-summer
This years work, a little more of what you talk about but as a series, how do you think they go together, especially for someone as out there as Vivienne Westwood? As some fashion stuff I've seen that seems quite tame.
This years work, a little more of what you talk about but as a series, how do you think they go together, especially for someone as out there as Vivienne Westwood? As some fashion stuff I've seen that seems quite tame.
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No - but if you read back i was talking about the way hes talked about , to whit the quote "He likes to work in a raw overexposed style with on board flash" - he may well be more capable but that isnt whats being talked about there.
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because that would be irrelevant to this discussion - if you read whats been said we are talking about how hard it is to f*** up the exposure of a picture and then talk arty b*****ks about it
Byker28i
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In that case yes, but you've come into this thread very dismissive of his work, lots of negative comments, whilst actually a lot is very good. Fashion is soemthing I'm not totally familiar with but he produces much more interesting images than the usual catalgues of clothes.
ZoneV
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Where has Teller done that?
Byker28i
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Moose like pretty pictures, doesn't like any for of art, it's all [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER], he tells us numerous times in so many threads that tries to discuss other srtists work.
That's fine, stuff is subjective, just it becomes a little wearing with the same generalistic drivel trotted out in every thread. We get it - you think it's crap, only that's it - it's crap with arty [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] writing trying to justify it, same as every other arty farty photographer.
Only it doesn't work that way. It's meant to engage, challenge, not always be pretty. I don't understand fashion but I cans see the creativity that goes into it and not be dismissive and blinkered. Same with a lot of the other stuff moose dismisses.
That's fine, stuff is subjective, just it becomes a little wearing with the same generalistic drivel trotted out in every thread. We get it - you think it's crap, only that's it - it's crap with arty [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] writing trying to justify it, same as every other arty farty photographer.
Only it doesn't work that way. It's meant to engage, challenge, not always be pretty. I don't understand fashion but I cans see the creativity that goes into it and not be dismissive and blinkered. Same with a lot of the other stuff moose dismisses.
Byker28i
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Seriously this is like playing chess with a pigeon - i'm not talking about Teller himself doing that, i'm talking about the overly reverent description of work that is (in my view) nothing special , by the chin stroking latte rati - to whit the quote I posted above...