JPEG V's RAW

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Dr4ke

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I currently shoot in the highest JPEG format, but am considering going to RAW as a few people have said it's 'better'.

I'm just wondering, though, what's the benefit of RAW? What can I do with it that I can't do with JPEG?

I usually upload my photo's to my iPad after every shoot, so I don't lose through corrupt SD cards, can I view RAW on my i devices?
 
Do you do any PP on your images?
 
I currently shoot in the highest JPEG format, but am considering going to RAW as a few people have said it's 'better'.

I'm just wondering, though, what's the benefit of RAW? What can I do with it that I can't do with JPEG?

I usually upload my photo's to my iPad after every shoot, so I don't lose through corrupt SD cards, can I view RAW on my i devices?

if you take a picture in raw and jpg and compare them.. jpg will look better..

what your being told is that you can do more PP (Post processing) on a raw file.. make major changes ..


you will gain NO benefit shooting raw unless your going to do some proper editing.. more than you would with a jpg


RAW has two real world uses... 1) if your a poor photoggrapher and you cant get it right in camera so you need to save (with processing) most of the pictures you take... 2) if you want to make artistic changes to enhance the picture.. moreso than jpg editing allows..
 
Thanks Kipax - right now I don't do any editing; primarily because I don't know what to edit, and I have little to no experience in the popular software products (lightroom, photoshop etc). I've heard you can do really good things with editing.... I just don't know where to start.

I guess, for that reason, RAW is not good for me...
 
Thanks Kipax - right now I don't do any editing; primarily because I don't know what to edit, and I have little to no experience in the popular software products (lightroom, photoshop etc). I've heard you can do really good things with editing.... I just don't know where to start.

I guess, for that reason, RAW is not good for me...

I would advise you to do some editing... I rarely see a digital picture that doesnt require somehting.. RAW may be a step too far at this stage.. I use photoshop only so can't advise on what software.. but you should get somwthing. just try a simple auto colour or auto contrast and you can sometimes see a massive difference.. you need to start soemwhere..

Personally i never shoot raw...I am not against it.. just i dont find a need.. i edit all my pictures but jpg is good enough for my needs.

some peopel think processing is cheating.. its not.. film developed photos had processing done at develope stage.. its an age old thing..

give it a go.. i am sure you will like the results.. lots of stuff is auto.. plus you can always undo if you dont like :)
 
Suppose it all boils down to how complicated the photo is. By this I mean for example you took a photo of a plain blue sheet of paper there would be no need to shoot in anything but Jpeg. However if you took a photo with loads in it with different colours and subjects you might want to tweak some parts of it then obviously shooting in Raw would be the answer.

Ok both extreme examples but makes the point clearer I think. There is no definitive answer unless you are doing professional photography and a client demands the best then only shooting in RAW is the way to go. One other point is are you happy shooting in Jpeg? or do you feel you can produce the final picture better in working with RAW. Only you can decide that.

The other point is the Ipad. Is it really the best bit of kit for editing? I don't own one but my gut feeling is an Ipad cannot show a picture for editing as well as a desktop computer and monitor. The may well be ok to look and see what you have taken but for editing???
 
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Good conclusion. You should look at PP though even if it's just with JPEGS, turns a nice picture into a great picture, adds 'punch' etc. Lightroom is fairly simple to start with. Even cropping/straightening pictures makes a huge difference.
 
Raw has enabled me to rescue a shot many a time. I edit every pic anyway, even jpg off the iPhone.
 
Thanks Kipax - right now I don't do any editing; primarily because I don't know what to edit, and I have little to no experience in the popular software products (lightroom, photoshop etc). I've heard you can do really good things with editing.... I just don't know where to start.

I guess, for that reason, RAW is not good for me...

I find Adobe Elements 10 or 11 (have both and 9) is powerful enough and easiest to do editing with for me. They have enough features I want without buying a Photoshop CS version which costs a fortune. Better mention some of my absolutely terrible photos (yes we all have those) can sometimes be saved by changing to mono colour (black and white)


Here is a link to a free trail download to see what you think of it

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=photoshop_elements&loc=us
 
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Kipax - Thank you for the help, I will try some auto editing and see how I get on. Hopefully in time I'll be able to start doing it manually and produce some excellent results. My only worry in staying with JPEG is I've been told that you lose quality every time you edit. I was told even if you rotate a picture, it compresses it again and you lose some of the quality... is that true?

Realspeed - thank you for the summary and the help also, I think I understand a little more now. With regards to editing, I don't do any editing on my iPad. I only put photo's on my iPad to view and to sort into folders, I then backup to my Seagate Wireless Pro for extra backup. For editing, I would do this on my iMac.

WelshNoob - Thanks for the advice re lightroom, is this available for iMac? Is it free? I don't have it with me at the moment, but I'll google and see what I can find!
 
Thank you also to Cambsno for your input.

Realspeed - thank you for the information re Elements. Silly question; what is the difference between Elements and CS? Is there less functionality etc?

Apologies I didn't include thanks in my previous post, your comments came through while I was typing it :-)
 
Thank you also to Cambsno for your input.

Realspeed - thank you for the information re Elements. Silly question; what is the difference between Elements and CS? Is there less functionality etc?

Apologies I didn't include thanks in my previous post, your comments came through while I was typing it :-)

Yes a few less functions not enough to worry about, but unless you are absolutely fanatical about producing photos good enough to be in an exhibition in the Tate gallery don't bother with CS, elements actually has so many you would never use them all anyway. If you do that download link you would find so much on there to keep you happy for years playing with it. most of the main functions in elements work on a slider basis and you can go from expert-guided or quick setting which makes things so easy. Bit like driving a fully auto car to manual to a formula 1 racing car, start with quick settings and you will find you will be using guided mainly and expert after getting used to it on occassion
 
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Thanks :) - I only have my iPad with me for the moment so I'll take a look when I get back home in a week or so.

Thanks again!
 
Kipax - Thank you for the help, I will try some auto editing and see how I get on. Hopefully in time I'll be able to start doing it manually and produce some excellent results. My only worry in staying with JPEG is I've been told that you lose quality every time you edit. I was told even if you rotate a picture, it compresses it again and you lose some of the quality... is that true?

Sort of, but not exactly. The edits themselves aren't destructive, but JPEGs do lose some quality each time you save them and it's cumulative. Whether you'll actually notice this is another matter, but you should aware of it. Always work off copies, not the original files, and try to do all your editing before saving a file, don't edit/save, edit/save............

Digitial cameras capture every image in raw anyway. Some let you store the raw files, others automatically convert them to JPEGs using the settings you've selected. Most cameras do a pretty good job of this, but it's a one way process. You can't reverse it and go back to raw, and digital information is lost during the conversion, which you can't recover.

Is it worth using raw (it's not an acronym, so there's no need to use capitals)? Maybe. Raw files do give you more flexibility in post processing, because they retain more information, and many people find the ability to adjust white balance particularly useful.

There are endless threads - and some heated arguments about this - on the forums. Do a search if you're interested, but I'd just shoot JPEG and raw together for a bit. Edit/process the raw files - it's quite easy - compare the results and see what you think? FWIW, I use raw nearly all the time, but switch to JPEG occaisonally for social 'snaps'. That works for me but YMMV.
 
in addition to the points kpax mentioned , the other benefit situation for raw is where you've a one off opportunity and it would be disastrous to cock up. For example I largely shoot jpeg on my own stuff but I shoot weddings in raw - not because i'm a poor photographer, or because I need to save lots of shots, but because it provides a safety net if you do happen to make a mistake (which everyone does from time to time)
 
Just to echo what's already been said, raw offers a safety net and is (even I'll admit) better if an image needs a lot of adjustment (highlight recovery in particular). JPEGs can be worked on fairly extensively but any PP should be done in one session to avoid the cumulative degradation that can occur after repeated save/open cycles. You can make multiple saves during a session to avoid losing any edits - it's the complete cycle that causes excessive artefaction. Keep all your saves of JPEGs in as high a quality as you can too. If you think you might need to do editing of JPEGs over several sessions, save the original as a TIFF and work on that. The files will be bigger than JPEGs but don't degrade with save/open cycles.
 
i was at the same point about 2 yeara ago when shooting only jpeg.i started a little basic editing with picasa which was a good introduction.after 9 months i decided to purchase elements 9 after deciding to start shooting in raw. i could never get raw import to PS9 so i had a funny method of nikon nx2 raw converter to tiff,tiff editrd in PS9 then saved as final image in jpeg. this went on for a year until i finally purchased Lightroom 4. now i kick myself for waiting so long to get LR4,its made editing so much easier. one of the best things is its a image library where you can keep on going back to tweek the image as many times as you like as it does not make changes to the actual raw file but remembers those changes.you then can export the file into any type you like when you like. i now dont have to keep 3 image files like it did before,only the raw and can export whatever final image i want at any point without worrying about image file degrading. editing is quite easy to learn in LR, there is plenty of information on the internet and on youtube.also noise reduction is better in LR.

as regarding which is best it all depends on whether you or the camera is better at processing and if you want/need to rectify mistakes.a raw file is just that,raw data to produce an image.raw gives you the processing decisions whereas with a camera jpeg they are decided by the camera and the image settings you have asked the camera to use.

since using raw ive not looked back.i try my best to get it right in camera but raw gives a safety net in case I make a mistake with wb exposure etc.photographying wildlife outside in changing light can mean i get wb wrong some of the time. a great image can be ruined by having the wrong wb,raw lets me save it. i understand the whole 'you should get it right in camera' arguement but as its a hobby and im no pro then raw gives me that extra protection and lets me make the final processing decisions.i also quite like the processing part to make a image too.

regarding raw or jpeg, the decision to down to what works best for you. an unprocessed raw image will never be as good as a camera processed jpeg.a properly processed raw can be just a good or even better.
 
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This may be worth a read.

Nikon View NX2 should have come with your camera and is good for Nikon raw files, it will read all your camera settings and apply them non-destructively, in other words if you like the result you do nothing or you can change any of them in View NX2 if you wish. i.e. sharpening in camera switched to high but then just change it in View NX2 if you want a different effect.

If you have not got a copy it is a free download from Nikon.
 
There are dozens of threads comparing raw and JPEG. I prefer raw for the following short reasons -
  • It is always possible to process a raw file to be identical to the JPEG from the camera.
  • Unless the in-camera settings were perfect then it always possible to process a raw file to be better than the JPEG from the camera.
  • Storage is cheap.
  • Even JPEGs need some processing, raw processing adds very little extra effort, if any.
 
There are dozens of threads comparing raw and JPEG. I prefer raw for the following short reasons -
  • It is always possible to process a raw file to be identical to the JPEG from the camera.
  • Unless the in-camera settings were perfect then it always possible to process a raw file to be better than the JPEG from the camera.
  • Storage is cheap.
  • Even JPEGs need some processing, raw processing adds very little extra effort, if any.

Sums it up for me :thumbs:
 
If you do any regular editing, and most images out of a digital camera need some editing, then shooting in RAW will give you more options and allows you to have more control over what you can do.

If you shoot in Jpeg the camera settings are locked into the image at time of capture, and some information is thrown away. The settings used in camera for Picture Control (Contrast, Brightness, Sharpening, Saturation and Hue/Tone) and White Balance will be locked into the image during the Jpeg conversion.

You can edit a Jpeg image and can do quite a bit to an image. Some things though, like if an image has too much sharpening, is difficult to undo. And sharpening an already sharpened image can introduce unwanted artefacts, depending on how much sharpening you need to add. I can add the correct amount of sharpening to every image, not the blanket amount for every image the camera may add.

If images are taken at high ISO there will Noise, and the camera may apply some noise reduction to the Jpeg. It will apply the same amount of noise reduction to each image. I can apply (what I think is) the correct amount of noise reduction to an image, on a per image basis. But you can apply noise reduction to a Jpeg some will say, and yes, you can, but you may be applying noise reduction to an image that has already had noise reduction applied in camera.

And just like sharpening an already sharpened image may not give the best results, applying noise reduction to an image which has already had noise reduction applied may not give the best image too. And as with sharpening, it is almost impossible to take the noise reduction off. Some would rather a bit of noise to keep the sharpness of the image, which noise reduction can sometimes take away. If I add the noise reduction, I can choose that balance that is best for the image.

Exposure. Get the right, and I mean particularly not overexposing when you don't want to, and everything is pretty much fine with a Jpeg. Overexpose though, and most of the time that part of the image that has overexposed has gone for good. In a RAW file, there is sometimes information still there to be recovered. Underexpose, and you can recover some information, but there is more information to be had in a RAW file.

All the Picture Controls and WB settings that the camera locks into the Jpeg are not locked into a RAW file. A lot of people say that being able to change all these things, and correcting exposure is for people who don't get things right in the camera leads to some people being lazy at capture, and it will, for some. Lazy people will use RAW like that. But RAW, imho, should be for optimising every image (every image you wish to make into a picture, you don't have to process every RAW file) to get the best image you can. Just like with any format you use, the closer you can get to what you want at capture will give a better file to work with and minimise any processing needed.

I can understand KIPAX's view on Jpegs, because he is (I assume) mostly taking images for his business, and he takes a lot of images which he needs to get from camera to (hopefully ;)) client as quickly as possible. He doesn't get paid extra for editing. ;) Most non Pro's are taking images under no time constraints, and this may allow time to get the best image they can from an file. And while KIPAX's aim to get the best representation of the sport he is covering, I doubt (though he may correct me) he is taking the time to add any artistic flourishes to his images. I don't think he is playing around with skies and and shadows under trees for example. ;) That is not to say his images are not artistic, but his aim (again, correct me if I'm wrong) is to catch a perfectly timed, perfectly exposed and sharp image. Which is what we all want of course, but we may also want to add something extra.

KIPAX also has thousands of £s worth of cameras and lenses to help him get the perfect image more of the time. Most of us have equipment that is not the best, and sometimes editing has to be done to correct for the deficiencies of the equipment. (and technique) There are reasons why Pro's buy the top of the range equipment, it is because it works better and is more consistent, and consistency helps shooting Jpegs.

Shoot in whatever format is best for you, but at least know the implications of using each format. And there is nothing to stop anyone using both of course, and choose the best file for the result you want to get. ;)
 
I think of the raw file like a "digital negative", so it's handy for archival purposes even if you have no immediate plans to do any PP on it.

I will sometimes look at my archive of raw files going back to 2006 and perhaps decide to re-process a file in a different way many years later.

I have a large archive of film negatives which were scanned soon after getting them developed but I have kept those negatives rather than throw them away, in the same way that I keep my raws.
 
A jpeg has the potential to be a good quality which is edited in camera. Raw has the potential to ne a great shot. If the camera can shoot different qualities why not opt for the best? Storage is cheap now days and its certainly faster to pp that develop film so I personally dont see any reason to shoot jpeg
 
in addition to the points kpax mentioned , the other benefit situation for raw is where you've a one off opportunity and it would be disastrous to cock up. For example I largely shoot jpeg on my own stuff but I shoot weddings in raw - not because i'm a poor photographer, or because I need to save lots of shots, but because it provides a safety net if you do happen to make a mistake (which everyone does from time to time)

Must agree but for general stuff, jpeg is king!
 
I still havent heard an argument for jpeg?

usability.. ease of use... quicker...


I sometimes think these must shoot in raw nutters are saying canon, nikon and all the other manufacturers havent a clue how to make cameras.. why on earth are they making them that saves in jpg ? i wonder :)
 
I still havent heard an argument for jpeg?

There are two advantages to shooting jpeg - small size and instant availability. The former is pretty irrelevant in these days of storage at 10MB/p. So the only real advantage is if you need to distribute your images immediately after shooting.
 
Thank you all,

I've enjoyed reading through everyone's comments, genuinely, and I appreciate the time taken to explain the information/facts & opinions.

One final question I have, though; the point has been mentioned that you can turn a raw file into the picture you would have got in jpg (I.e. you can do the processing the camera would have done automatically) but how easy/quick is this? If I go out and shoot 200 pictures, am I going to spend a whole day pp?

And also, to re-raise an earlier question: I am currently in America for 3 weeks and after every day I put my photos onto my iPad, for viewing/backup etc, can I do this with raw?
 
One final question I have, though; the point has been mentioned that you can turn a raw file into the picture you would have got in jpg (I.e. you can do the processing the camera would have done automatically) but how easy/quick is this?

With Canon cameras you use their software, DPP, in batch mode with the default settings and it will automagically produce jpegs identical to those the camera would have produced. I'm not certain, but I've been led to believe that something similar is possible with their software.

Alternatively, one can use something like FastStone or Instant Jpeg from Raw to automatically extract the embedded jpeg from a group of raw files.
 
I currently shoot in the highest JPEG format, but am considering going to RAW as a few people have said it's 'better'.

I'm just wondering, though, what's the benefit of RAW? What can I do with it that I can't do with JPEG?

I usually upload my photo's to my iPad after every shoot, so I don't lose through corrupt SD cards, can I view RAW on my i devices?

Check out this month's Digital SLR mag for my guide :thumbs:

dslr_raw.jpg
 
With Canon cameras you use their software, DPP, in batch mode with the default settings and it will automagically produce jpegs identical to those the camera would have produced. I'm not certain, but I've been led to believe that something similar is possible with their software.

Alternatively, one can use something like FastStone or Instant Jpeg from Raw to automatically extract the embedded jpeg from a group of raw files.

Thank you! Ill see if Nikon do something similar
 
usability.. ease of use... quicker...


I sometimes think these must shoot in raw nutters are saying canon, nikon and all the other manufacturers havent a clue how to make cameras.. why on earth are they making them that saves in jpg ? i wonder :)

I don't think I'm a RAW nutter, ;) but to answer you, the Jpeg format was conceived when memory and bandwidth were expensive things. That is no longer the case.

It is a universal image format, which was also able to be compressed, in a lossy way in which information is thrown away, to save space. As a compression technology, it does an amazing job, it typically achieves 10:1 compression with little perceptible loss in image quality in normal use. But that is the image quality of the final image. When you start editing Jpegs, the limitations and problems of Jpegs can sometimes become apparent. (sometimes not ;)) If you get things correct most of the time and do minimal or no editing, then there may be no need to shoot in the RAW format. :shrug:

As for the camera manufacturers, they use the Jpeg format because it is a universal image format. Easily read by every device that can display an image. It can be output from the camera ready to be posted or printed.

And a question for you KIPAX, if the Jpegs out of the cameras are so good, why do all the manufacturers provide the RAW format option? Surely Jpeg is all anyone needs. ;) :lol:
 
Alternatively, one can use something like FastStone or Instant Jpeg from Raw to automatically extract the embedded jpeg from a group of raw files.

Most times the embedded Jpeg is a low quality, or in the case of Nikon, Basic quality.

Thank you! Ill see if Nikon do something similar

You should have got software on the CD that came with your camera called ViewNX 2 which I think, can produce a Jpeg from the RAW file as the camera would have output it using the settings that were set in camera, which the RAW file remembers, but only shares with Nikon software. ;)
 
Most times the embedded Jpeg is a low quality,

A lot of the time the quality is perfectly fine. If you just want to stick an image onto Facebook, post an image onto Tp, or to run through a load of images to cull obvious duds then the embedded jpeg is perfectly suitable and very easy to create. If you want something better than DPP will take a little longer.
 
A lot of the time the quality is perfectly fine. If you just want to stick an image onto Facebook, post an image onto Tp, or to run through a load of images to cull obvious duds then the embedded jpeg is perfectly suitable and very easy to create. If you want something better than DPP will take a little longer.

I know it depends on the usage of the embedded Jpeg. I was just drawing attention to the fact that it may not be the best quality image, and so manage expectations for it's quality.

When I first started using RAW files, rather than shooting in RAW+Jpeg, (memory was expensive ;)) I shot RAW and the used a program called Preview Extractor which worked on Nikon RAW files to quickly extract the Basic quality embedded Jpeg, to show me which RAW files I wanted to edit.

Most RAW processing programs will give you a preview image as part of the interface now, so that program is no longer needed. It was good that it was there at the time though. :)
 
I didn't want to swap from what I knew which was JPEG. Learning how to use raws post process has improved the quality of my photos 10 fold in some case

Maybe this is because I'm not quite getting it right in camera yet.

At the end of the day though learning a bit about raw has helped me significantly improve image quality so much that i won't use JPEG again.

If you shot raw but don't want to make any changes it takes 5 minutes to export a batch to JPEG in Lightroom, but you always have the digital version of a negative of you need to make adjustments
 
I didn't want to swap from what I knew which was JPEG. Learning how to use raws post process has improved the quality of my photos 10 fold in some case

Maybe this is because I'm not quite getting it right in camera yet.

At the end of the day though learning a bit about raw has helped me significantly improve image quality so much that i won't use JPEG again.

If you shot raw but don't want to make any changes it takes 5 minutes to export a batch to JPEG in Lightroom, but you always have the digital version of a negative of you need to make adjustments

You may well be 'getting it right in camera', but pretty much all RAW captures need some editing and tend to look a bit flat on the screen. This is to do with how RAW works and nothing to do with camera skills.

Learning to edit is every bit as important as learning to expose correctly if you want to get the best results. This has been the case since 1827 and will never change.
 
I think at the end of the day it depends what you are doing.

Ive been through the " I only shoot jpeg" phase and the " raw is much better" phase before coming to the realisation that both are just tools and a craftsman uses whatever tool does the job best for him (which differs from one craftsman to the next)

If i'm shooting a wedding i'll mostly use raw (although if ive promised a slide show at the late evening reception I'll shoot raw and jpeg)

If i'm shooting a few beautiful landscapes I'll use Raw

If on the other hand I'm doing tree surveys for work I'll use jpeg , because theres no way i'm processing several thousand shots of trees through a raw broweser when all that is important is to show their condition and any defects or fungal bodies
 
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