Jessops returns

[mjmountain]

I suspect this is simply a case of differing views, neither of which will be proven right or wrong, simply opinion.

Indeed. But the proponents of one of those views insist on using personal slurs to belittle the other.

 

[jakeblu]

I'd think they were pretty bad businessmen if they were noncompetitive when they could be competitive - they'll only end up going out of business anyway. That's how business work - you find a competitive edge and exploit it to make profit. Those that can't compete go out of business. Your local camera shops added value may be top service and advice - unfortunately for them I don't really need to pay premium for that value add. Hopefully for them though there are enough customers that will - but don't dare say I'm immoral for exercising choice and finding a good deal because frankly that could be construed as pompous.

Ahh the wonderful capitalist system, knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Agreed. But I'm talking about just examining it in the shop. Not taking it for a test drive.

Would you let them open a new camera so you could 'get the feel of it' knowing full well your not going to buy it?

 

[mjmountain]

Who said things were not priced "honestly" (and who said it was haggling)? Most people have a basic misconception of the differences between haggling & negotiation.

Haggle = "I'll give you X for this".

Negotiation = "You do something for me & I'll do something for you".

In the case I stated above, I'll pick 2 or 3 items, then ask "what deal can you do if I take X also". That's negotiation, not haggling. I am prepared to spend more, if they help me out, simple really.

Semantics!

You have to ask for the offer. I'd rather it was transparent and available to all.

 

[mjmountain]

Ahh the wonderful capitalist system, knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Again. They're businesses. There sole aim is to make profit. If they can't do that efficiently they will close.

Would you let them open a new camera so you could 'get the feel of it' knowing full well your not going to buy it?

Not my problem. I'd have a demonstrator model if possible.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

How dare a business try to make a profit, heaven forbid. The pricing is transparent, the price on the ticket is the price you pay, unfortunately though know everyone wants to negotiate, next time you’re in Tesco wait until you’re at the checkout and then offer fifty quid for £70 worth of shopping and see the response you get. Why is it not the accepted culture in other areas of retail.

As has already been mentioned high st retailers have costs that outstrip the warehouse/internet operations. Premises are more expensive per sq/ft, business rates are different oh and let’s not forget the fact that there is no way for them to avoid tax (there goes another can of worms). It doesn’t seem that long ago (when Jessops collapsed) that people were complaining that there wasn’t anywhere to view and feel cameras. I know that you have 14 days to return, but you still have to pay in advance, let’s suppose you were wanting to try the Canon 5d4 against the Nikon D850, where to lay your hands on £8k.

Anyway I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears, but nevermind

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

Not my problem. I'd have a demonstrator model if possible.

It will be when no shops exist to have demonstrator models

 

[mjmountain]

It will be when no shops exist to have demonstrator models

Then I'll order online and return if I don't like it. That's what I usually do anyway. But I was asked what would I do if I was the retailer.

 

[mjmountain]

How dare a business try to make a profit, heaven forbid. The pricing is transparent, the price on the ticket is the price you pay, unfortunately though know everyone wants to negotiate, next time you’re in Tesco wait until you’re at the checkout and then offer fifty quid for £70 worth of shopping and see the response you get. Why is it not the accepted culture in other areas of retail.

I agree completely, transparent pricing that I don't have to negotiate on.

As has already been mentioned high st retailers have costs that outstrip the warehouse/internet operations. Premises are more expensive per sq/ft, business rates are different oh and let’s not forget the fact that there is no way for them to avoid tax (there goes another can of worms). It doesn’t seem that long ago (when Jessops collapsed) that people were complaining that there wasn’t anywhere to view and feel cameras. I know that you have 14 days to return, but you still have to pay in advance, let’s suppose you were wanting to try the Canon 5d4 against the Nikon D850, where to lay your hands on £8k.

Anyway I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears, but nevermind

I'll never be in a position to purchase a camera of that value so it really doesn't apply to me. I suspect there will always be a need for a speciality retailer, just not as many. However don't take umbridge with me, petition your council to introduce free town centre parking or park and ride, and lower business rates for independent retailers. Give them the means to be competitive. Otherwise they fall victim to market forces.

 

[ChrisHeathcote]

Then I'll order online and return if I don't like it. That's what I usually do anyway. But I was asked what would I do if I was the retailer.

Out of curiosity, how would you compare models, or even lens samples to ensure that it was sharp?

 

[mjmountain]

Out of curiosity, how would you compare models, or even lens samples to ensure that it was sharp?

I'm a hobbiest - I research a product heavily, buy what I think is the best option and if I don't like it I return it and try again. I don't buy grey because I want a decent warranty and support. But I do shop around for the best price. That includes high street stores. I don't actively "use" them as a product library, but I will go in to have a look at something I'm interested in if they stock it and check out the price. Usually it's higher than online. If it's a matter of a couple of quid I'll buy from the retailer, if it's tens of pounds i'll ask for a price match, and then usually buy online. Often the price difference is >£50 in which case I'll feel like I'm being ripped off.

Apparently this behaviour is abhorrent to some.

 

[GreenNinja67]

Tried to bring a bit of culture to you lot, but failed miserably

Just stick to bluds and posse if its easier and a s*** load of acronyms, sorry letters wot mean big words

Do you know of my academic background?

No, so stop casting aspersions and lighten up.

Everybody's different, it doesn't make them better or worse than you just different.

Sanctimonious old goat.

(Look it up)

 

[Jelster]

Apparently this behaviour is abhorrent to some.

It just shows a lack of support for a local business. I tend to buy my cars new, but I won't traipse 50-100 miles to another dealer for a bit of additional discount, I'll buy local and know I'll get good service when my car needs to go in.

Likewise, I use 2 photography stores, one near my office in West London, the other in Reading. Both are not that local, but I have no issue paying an extra 5-10% for the convenience of being able to feel the merchandise. God forbid I try and do a PX with an online retailer.... I need to be there to make sure I get the best deal, I can't do that via the Internet!

 

[jakeblu]

Again. They're businesses. There sole aim is to make profit. If they can't do that efficiently they will close.



Not my problem. I'd have a demonstrator model if possible.

Of course its not your problem, and you wonder why so much vitriol has been directed towards you. Demonstrator models for every single camera model they stock! Your not asking for much are you?

 

[mjmountain]

It just shows a lack of support for a local business. I tend to buy my cars new, but I won't traipse 50-100 miles to another dealer for a bit of additional discount, I'll buy local and know I'll get good service when my car needs to go in.

Likewise, I use 2 photography stores, one near my office in West London, the other in Reading. Both are not that local, but I have no issue paying an extra 5-10% for the convenience of being able to feel the merchandise. God forbid I try and do a PX with an online retailer.... I need to be there to make sure I get the best deal, I can't do that via the Internet!

The car analogy is a good one - if you test drive a car in one dealer do you feel compelled to buy it? What if you go away to think about it and find a better value car 10 miles down the road for £3k less?

 

[mjmountain]

Of course its not your problem, and you wonder why so much vitriol has been directed towards you. Demonstrator models for every single camera model they stock! Your not asking for much are you?

Not really no. As a camera supplier you'd probably specialise on the brands/models that make you most profit and have a chat with the supplier about getting in demo models in order to shift more boxes. Adapt or die.

 

[Fuji Dave]

I wonder if @marcg868 got any response from Jessops ... seams such a long time ago he was asking if we thought he should be able to return the camera.

Once the post went in to the playground, I think it might of scared him off. IMO it has totally gone off the rails, as some do.

 

[Carl Hall]

I don't think I would go into a store to try out a product with no intention of buying from them, as it would feel dishonest. However, if I had tried a product in store and then found it cheaper elsewhere whilst thinking about it, I would go with the cheaper place. The difference being that I was a potential customer when I tried it out.

Morality isn't just black and white. It's black and white with an infinite number of greys in between. What's immoral to me isn't immoral to someone else, and that's just life. Trying out gear in store with the intention of buying online elsewhere is exactly the same as someone coming to view a car I'm selling with no intention of buying. It sucks, but there's not much the seller can do about it.

 

[Eloise]

As a camera supplier you'd probably specialise on the brands/models that make you most profit and have a chat with the supplier about getting in demo models in order to shift more boxes.

You really have no idea how camera shop business works do you ... the shop has to usually buy all the demo models - they aren't (generally) supplied by the manufacturer.

 

[Eloise]

I don't think I would go into a store to try out a product with no intention of buying from them, as it would feel dishonest. However, if I had tried a product in store and then found it cheaper elsewhere whilst thinking about it, I would go with the cheaper place. The difference being that I was a potential customer when I tried it out.

Personally I am quite "happy" going into a store, browsing and "playing" with cameras (or other similar products) that are on open display. If a member of staff approaches me I will make it clear I am just browsing but have had some who then strike up a conversation if the store isn't busy. But I don't feel in that situation I am leading the staff on or "wasting their time / resources" as I've made it clear that looking is my only intention. If I am purchasing though, and go into a store and ask advice, I will take into account the value of the advice I received when deciding where I should purchase it. 5-10% premium for the High Street isn't (to me and I recognise others have a different point of view) out of the question. For example buying my D750 I valued being able to go into LCE and try both a D610 and D750 side by side and while they were more expensive than I could have got online, that ability to try was worth the slight premium. However; generally I find stores are very close in price - especially if you take grey market out of the equation.

I've probably overspent more than the £50-100 difference on cameras between online and shop prices in buying books from Waterstones rather than Amazon; but I value the ability to browse bookshops, which you don't get with Amazon, so the cost is worthwhile to me.

Morality isn't just black and white. It's black and white with an infinite number of greys in between. What's immoral to me isn't immoral to someone else, and that's just life. Trying out gear in store with the intention of buying online elsewhere is exactly the same as someone coming to view a car I'm selling with no intention of buying. It sucks, but there's not much the seller can do about it.

I agree that morality - and I don't even see this as morality as such - isn't black and white. Its a shame we can't present our point of view and accept others without the name calling and if anyone feels I've overstepped into name calling then I apologise.

Personally I agree with Carl; trying out in a store with the intention of buying online is wrong at least without allowing the store the opportunity to get close in price. But there is a difference between that and demoing in store then seeking the best price if there is a big disparity. It is a fine line (IMO) between taking advantage of stores (and yes I know they are not charities but thats a pointless platitude IMO) and seeking the best deal. Morality is often about intention.

 

[mjmountain]

You really have no idea how camera shop business works do you ... the shop has to usually buy all the demo models - they aren't (generally) supplied by the manufacturer.

Interesting you caveat with Usually and Generally. No I'm not a camera retailer. But if a business model doesn't work for whatever reason (which everyone is telling me it doesn't as they're all going out of business thanks to my personal shopping habits) then that model must change to stay competitive. That isn't for me to solve.

 

[mjmountain]

Personally I am quite "happy" going into a store, browsing and "playing" with cameras (or other similar products) that are on open display. If a member of staff approaches me I will make it clear I am just browsing but have had some who then strike up a conversation if the store isn't busy. But I don't feel in that situation I am leading the staff on or "wasting their time / resources" as I've made it clear that looking is my only intention. If I am purchasing though, and go into a store and ask advice, I will take into account the value of the advice I received when deciding where I should purchase it. 5-10% premium for the High Street isn't (to me and I recognise others have a different point of view) out of the question. For example buying my D750 I valued being able to go into LCE and try both a D610 and D750 side by side and while they were more expensive than I could have got online, that ability to try was worth the slight premium. However; generally I find stores are very close in price - especially if you take grey market out of the equation.

This isn't a million miles from what I said I do?

 

[Overexposed]

So, better to try in the shop and buy online....

Yes I can. If the retailer allowed returns like the online shop with price matching then it would be competitive. Otherwise I'll play the system to get the best deal.

So you never go into a shop, see something you like, then google to see if the price is competitive - and if not, buy elsewhere? (Even though the goods are what you want)

But in this case you're paying a premium for advice and convenience. Which is absolutely fine. I tend to do a ton of online research then only want to get a feel for if the product suits me - not much advice needed. And I'm not a pro, so I'm prepared to wait a day or two to save tens of pounds if needed.

This isn't a million miles from what I said I do?

Yeah right! you basically cynically play the system its a million miles away fom what Eloise is doing

 

[mjmountain]

Yeah right! you basically cynically play the system its a million miles away fom what Eloise is doing

Go into jessops, look at the camera, have a play (a demo model if available, no harm done), go home have a think about it, buy online (from jessops if you must). Get the benefit of distance selling rules.

I don't cynically play the system. I get the best deal I can from the most competitive retailer that has the highest value add for my needs. The onus is on them to work harder/smarter to get my business. I'm amazed to see that others feel the need/or have the money to spaff at businesses simply because they are local.

Where are you drawing the line, do you only buy British to support British industries? Only Cameras made within 50 miles of your house? Good luck with that.

 

[Eloise]

This isn't a million miles from what I said I do?

I'm don't want to argue ... but no I don't feel thats what you said you do. Your suggestion was (as I read it) that the only thing that you take into account is cost. If you can same even a penny online (and yes that hyperbole) then you would storm out of Jessops (or wherever) after spending half an afternoon testing their cameras and buy online.

As I said further in my comment ... its a fine line. So maybe not a million miles ... but certainly the other side of the line (with the caveat that its how I read your comments so I may be misjudging you).

 

[mjmountain]

I'm a hobbiest - I research a product heavily, buy what I think is the best option and if I don't like it I return it and try again. I don't buy grey because I want a decent warranty and support. But I do shop around for the best price. That includes high street stores. I don't actively "use" them as a product library, but I will go in to have a look at something I'm interested in if they stock it and check out the price. Usually it's higher than online. If it's a matter of a couple of quid I'll buy from the retailer, if it's tens of pounds i'll ask for a price match, and then usually buy online. Often the price difference is >£50 in which case I'll feel like I'm being ripped off.

Apparently this behaviour is abhorrent to some.

I'm don't want to argue ... but no I don't feel thats what you said you do. Your suggestion was (as I read it) that the only thing that you take into account is cost. If you can same even a penny online (and yes that hyperbole) then you would storm out of Jessops (or wherever) after spending half an afternoon testing their cameras and buy online.

As I said further in my comment ... its a fine line. So maybe not a million miles ... but certainly the other side of the line (with the caveat that its how I read your comments so I may be misjudging you).

Really? Half an afternoon testing cameras? Storm out? Over a penny?

I don't know which thread you're reading..

 

[Eloise]

Go into jessops, look at the camera, have a play (a demo model if available, no harm done), go home have a think about it, buy online (from jessops if you must). Get the benefit of distance selling rules.

I don't cynically play the system. I get the best deal I can from the most competitive retailer that has the highest value add for my needs. The onus is on them to work harder/smarter to get my business. I'm amazed to see that others feel the need/or have the money to spaff at businesses simply because they are local.

They are working hard to get your business by offering you the ability to demo the cameras. That is the "value added".

I think the impasse in our thoughts is that you see that as something which adds no value - other people see it adds value and that if everyone did the same (demo in store then orders from the cheapest online) then you loose out.

But yes, sometimes supporting a business because its local is important. Its called being part of the community. Its what pays for your high street to be swept, etc. It ensures that the High Street doesn't become one bookmaker after the next with the occasional charity shop for variety. You see no value in that ... but if you don't want to be criticised for seeing no value in it; don't criticise those people who do see value.

If I'm honest about it while it was a loss when Jessops when bankrupt because they were the last large camera chain; I also felt it was slightly justice as I felt they had pushed all the small local camera stores out of business so don't think I'm blind to your criticisms.

 

[Fuji Dave]

Again can we please keep this polite, the OP asked a question then folk say they do this and that then sticks & stones come out. IMO if you buy online good, or like me buy in store good, so please try and stop point scoring as it has already RUINED the OPs question, thank you

 

[Eloise]

Really? Half an afternoon testing cameras? Storm out? Over a penny?

I don't know which thread you're reading..

How about you read my post where I said I was using hyperbole (or to word it another way I was exaggerating) but that was the general impression I got from your post. How much more would you pay ... a couple quid implies less than 1% (on a £1000 camera 1% would be £10)?

To be honest an afternoon's shopping often costs a lot more than £50 extra compared with online ... especially once you take afternoon tea and cakes into account

 

[mjmountain]

They are working hard to get your business by offering you the ability to demo the cameras. That is the "value added".

I think some people are missing my point entirely. Given (if true) these firms are going out of business it obviously isn't value added as if it was these firms would be thriving. Regardless of if you think it is, these firms need to adapt to survive. You think I am part of that problem, I think the retailers, and council are the ones with the onus to fix it. Bring me back into the high street. Give me an attractive offer.

My nearest independent camera shop is in York, when I last called them they wanted to charge me £60 for a sensor clean. A task that took me 5 minutes with 50p worth of kit to do well. Had they given me a more competitive offer then they would've had me in the shop - once in the shop I would browse - that could lead to a sale.

 

[mjmountain]

How about you read my post where I said I was using hyperbole (or to word it another way I was exaggerating) but that was the general impression I got from your post. How much more would you pay ... a couple quid implies less than 1% (on a £1000 camera 1% would be £10)?

To be honest an afternoon's shopping often costs a lot more than £50 extra compared with online ... especially once you take afternoon tea and cakes into account

As stated, I haven't got the cash to buy a £1000 camera. £50 is a lot of cash to me - maybe that's where the biggest difference of opinion lies.

 

[mjmountain]

How about you read my post where I said I was using hyperbole (or to word it another way I was exaggerating) but that was the general impression I got from your post. How much more would you pay ... a couple quid implies less than 1% (on a £1000 camera 1% would be £10)?

To be honest an afternoon's shopping often costs a lot more than £50 extra compared with online ... especially once you take afternoon tea and cakes into account

You're using hyperbole to prove a point that can only be made by using hyperbole.

 

[Overexposed]

Go into jessops, look at the camera, have a play (a demo model if available, no harm done), go home have a think about it, buy online (from jessops if you must). Get the benefit of distance selling rules.

I don't cynically play the system. I get the best deal I can from the most competitive retailer that has the highest value add for my needs. The onus is on them to work harder/smarter to get my business. I'm amazed to see that others feel the need/or have the money to spaff at businesses simply because they are local.

Where are you drawing the line, do you only buy British to support British industries? Only Cameras made within 50 miles of your house? Good luck with that.

No what you are missing is after Googling prices your need/desire to go in play with their stock and then buy elsewhere. What you fail to understand is that there is a cost to offering that service which you plainly don't realise or don't want to acknowledge. The fact of the matter is the retailer has worked harder to get your business because he has the camera in stock that you are playing with, anyone can post a photo of a camera on the web and discount it
I'm talking about supporting your local community and high street its got nothing to do with buying British which further shows you just aren't grasping the issue.
If you want to get really deep what about the implications of the web traders not paying corporation tax on their profits ? Ebay and Amazon are 2 prime candiates

 

[mjmountain]

No what you are missing is after Googling prices your need/desire to go in play with their stock and then buy elsewhere. What you fail to understand is that there is a cost to offering that service which you plainly don't realise or don't want to acknowledge. The fact of the matter is the retailer has worked harder to get your business because he has the camera in stock that you are playing with, anyone can post a photo of a camera on the web and discount it
I'm talking about supporting your local community and high street its got nothing to do with buying British which further shows you just aren't grasping the issue.
If you want to get really deep what about the implications of the web traders not paying corporation tax on their profits ? Ebay and Amazon are 2 prime candiates

Gah, I give in, you're right. I'm scum, the sole reason the high street is becoming a wasteland of charity shop, poundworlds and e-cig retailers. Just because I try and get a decent deal.

 

[Eloise]

My nearest independent camera shop is in York, when I last called them they wanted to charge me £60 for a sensor clean. A task that took me 5 minutes with 50p worth of kit to do well. Had they given me a more competitive offer then they would've had me in the shop - once in the shop I would browse - that could lead to a sale.

While its not a direct comparison ... perhaps reading this about why a glass of hot water with lemon cost a customer (who felt ripped off) £2 would help (though £60 is likely excessive and as you say getting you there to clean your sensor might induce you to make further purchases)...

I’m sorry that you feel that you were “ripped off” and I’ll try to explain why you weren’t. You entered the cafe and the waiter showed you to your seat, gave you a menu, waited for a time and then took your order. He entered it into the till, collected a cup, saucer and spoon and took them into the kitchen. There, he selected a knife, chopping board, got a lemon from the fridge, cut off a slice and put it in the cup. Then, he returned to the dining room, drew off the necessary hot water and carried the cup to your table. When you were leaving, he printed off your bill, took it to you, processed your credit card payment and cashed off the till. After you left, he cleared away your cup, saucer and spoon, took them into the kitchen, washed and dried them, along with the chopping board and knife and put away the lemon. Then, returning to the dining room, he restacked the cup, saucer and spoon, wiped down your table and replaced the menu, awaiting the next customer.

That’s at least 2-3 minutes work for the waiter.

The cost of overheads for the business, ie rent, business rates, electricity costs, bank charges, etc, works out at £27.50 per hour of trading. I pay my colleagues a decent living wage and after taking into account holiday pay, national insurance and non-productive time prior to opening and after closing, the waiter who served you costs me £12.50 per hour. Therefore, together the cost is £40 per hour or 67p per minute, meaning that the cost of providing you with 2-3 minutes of service was £1.34 – £2.00. Then the government add on VAT at 20% which takes the cost of that cup of fruit infusion to between £1.60 and £2.40 irrespective of whether you had a teabag costing one and a half pence or a slice of lemon costing five pence.

I have to pay my suppliers otherwise the facilities won’t be available to other people who use them in the future. I accept that it makes the price of a cuppa in a city centre cafe look expensive compared to the one you make at home but unfortunately that’s the cruel reality of life. It’s actually the facilities that cost the money, far more so than the ingredients. Perhaps, the rudeness that you perceived in me was triggered by the disrespect that I perceived in you by your presumption that you could use our facilities and be waited on for free.​

 

[mjmountain]

While its not a direct comparison ... perhaps reading this about why a glass of hot water with lemon cost a customer (who felt ripped off) £2 would help (though £60 is likely excessive and as you say getting you there to clean your sensor might induce you to make further purchases)...

SNIP

Not really a fair comparison.

I think it was priced high as it's a task that's not central to their business model, but enough people "worry" (unnecessarily) that they'll damage cameras doing it themselves that they'd pay a premium to get someone else to spend 5 minutes doing it with the safety net of insurance and expertise. Jessops charge £30 (but get awful reviews). To me that's ripping people off, exploiting there anxieties. (It's the same with sensor cleaning kit. £15 for a tiny bottle of ethanol re-badged as sensor cleaner). You may have your local retailers best interests at heart, but it doesn't mean they feel the same about their customer.

 

[Twigman]

They are working hard to get your business by offering you the ability to demo the cameras. That is the "value added".

I think the impasse in our thoughts is that you see that as something which adds no value

I'm sure he/she recognises that it adds value - it's just that he/she's not prepared to pay for it.
One of the something for nothing generation...

 

[Eloise]

Not really a fair comparison.

The point was simply that the cost of providing a service is much more than the cost of the products involved...

 

[mjmountain]

I'm sure he/she recognises that it adds value - it's just that he/she's not prepared to pay for it.
One of the something for nothing generation...

Wow. Just wow. I mean, dismissing a whole generation. How old are you? Old enough to enjoy/have enjoyed free health care? Free education? Affordable housing? The arrogance of such a statement.

I recognise it adds value, it's just not a value add for me.

 

[mjmountain]

The point was simply that the cost of providing a service is much more than the cost of the products involved...

I'm well aware of that, I work in the service industry. Give me a little credit.

 

[Twigman]

I recognise it adds value, it's just not a value add for me.

You recognise it adds value it but has no value to you?
Contradict yourself in one sentence, why don't you?

You definitely want something for nothing.
You're the reason businesses fail - you expect the service but don't accept that you need to pay for it.