It really is time for change

[lawrie29]

And by greater power, I mean God, Police, a father, a mother, the neighbours, a teacher anyone who was able to deliver either a very effective mouthful or a clip round the ear, or just put some kind of fear into the very soul of people.

Today, the greater power is whoever is on the front of Heat this week.

 

[wack61]

Anyone who thinks this is a new problem is exceptionally ignorant. Crime is and always has been an issue. Most statistics show a decline in crime

and you believe stastics :bonk:

the NHS are supposed to triage anyone coming into A&E within a specified time, if they're busy to keep the "statistics" correct if the case isn't serious they leave them in the ambulance because if they're not in the hospital they don't enter the "statistics"

I think anyone that believes statistics provided by the government is exceptionally ignorant

We deal with some Dutch folk through work, and not a single one of them is aggresive, rude, arrogant...we could learn a lot from that sort of system.. Norway do something similar I beleive

I was listening to a debate on the radio a while back, aparantly in Holland if you get pregnant under age the state gives you nothing, it's up to the parents to look after the resultant children as if they were their own, perhaps that's the answer, stop throwing money at teenagers when they get up the duff and they'll stop doing it :shrug:

 

[robrevens]

I still think that caning kids does more harm than good. All the psychopaths I have known have been savagely beaten, abused, as kids.

Caning is not the same thing as savagely beating, surely?

 

[ladysue]

Caning is not the same thing as savagely beating, surely?

Its just a question of degree. I have never believed in an adult hitting a child with a stick.Often in the past that included very small children. If people on here have small children or grandchildren would they want a man hitting them with a cane? I think there are other improvements we need to make in parenting and society before we think about caning..However I do believe in discipline and agree with Lawrie that kids no longer fear being caught out as we did. Too often parents fail to back up teachers, neighbours , police etc when they reprimand their little darlings.

 

[SamuelHearn]

Okay, how about the way they do it in Denmark then? When you leave school you either go to technical college/university, get a job, or do National Service.

Sounds perfect, that way everybody would have something to do. I've no idea why the government seems to think that everyone on benefits who doesn't have a job will go out and find one, because there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with just leeching money so they can sit around all day. Some people just need a nice firm kick up the arse to get them started..

Also, I hate being tarred with the same brush as these yobs. Last year, me and my friend (15 at the time) were lost so we decided to ask for directions, the only person we could find was an old woman walking down the street. When we asked her for directions, she clutched her purse and said "your not going to hurt me, are you?" and she looked as if she was about to break down in tears, she looked completely mortified. I think that just goes to show how much influence the media has on peoples opinions... I'm also a bit pee'd off with getting searched for alcohol (which I am never in possession of), the only reason the police would have is that I'm a teenager. Bit unfair really, I'd have thought their time would be much better spent tackling areas of knife and gun crime.

 

[Adamski]

When I left High School in the late 80's, there was still the threat of a teacher throwing something at you or dragging you before the head of Dept. Also the P.E. Teachers were still allowed to make you do PE even if you had forgotten your kit. The spare kit room was one reason NOT to forget your kit Nowadays kids waltz off knowing that the teachers can't touch them for fear of an assault charge.

I'm not saying bring back caning but there is a missing tier between caning and where we are now.

 

[KIPAX]

national service? please no!!!!! You want to train the sort of people who attack others how to attack them better and not lose.... give over!! at east i ahve a chance with smoking drinking bruce lee wannabes... i dont want to tell a trained fit yob to sod off

 

[Kev M]

Sounds perfect, that way everybody would have something to do. I've no idea why the government seems to think that everyone on benefits who doesn't have a job will go out and find one, because there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with just leeching money so they can sit around all day. Some people just need a nice firm kick up the arse to get them started..

The thing is Sam, as expensive as benefits are they're still cheaper than the minimum wage. If you took everybody off of the dole and put them in some sort of Government employment the bill to the taxpayer who isn't in state employment just gets bigger. It's not just the basic salary either, once they're in Government employment they're then entitled to a company pension and all the other perks that are part work for the Government.

If there's one thing we should learn from the last 13 years it's that the state can not employ people just to make statistics look good. A job for the government is not, in 99.9% of cases going to earn money for the treasury and we would just end up in a bigger debt crisis than the one we can't afford at the minute.

Also, I hate being tarred with the same brush as these yobs. Last year, me and my friend (15 at the time) were lost so we decided to ask for directions, the only person we could find was an old woman walking down the street. When we asked her for directions, she clutched her purse and said "your not going to hurt me, are you?" and she looked as if she was about to break down in tears, she looked completely mortified. I think that just goes to show how much influence the media has on peoples opinions... I'm also a bit pee'd off with getting searched for alcohol (which I am never in possession of), the only reason the police would have is that I'm a teenager. Bit unfair really, I'd have thought their time would be much better spent tackling areas of knife and gun crime.

A sorry tale and one of the reasons I'm keen not to tar all teenagers with the same brush.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

The thing is Sam, as expensive as benefits are they're still cheaper than the minimum wage. If you took everybody off of the dole and put them in some sort of Government employment the bill to the taxpayer who isn't in state employment just gets bigger. It's not just the basic salary either, once they're in Government employment they're then entitled to a company pension and all the other perks that are part work for the Government.

Then what you say is, "you want benefits? Ok you'll need to do work in your local community for them, cutting the grass, picking up litter, cleaning off grafitti".

 

[SamuelHearn]

The thing is Sam, as expensive as benefits are they're still cheaper than the minimum wage. If you took everybody off of the dole and put them in some sort of Government employment the bill to the taxpayer who isn't in state employment just gets bigger. It's not just the basic salary either, once they're in Government employment they're then entitled to a company pension and all the other perks that are part work for the Government.

If there's one thing we should learn from the last 13 years it's that the state can not employ people just to make statistics look good. A job for the government is not, in 99.9% of cases going to earn money for the treasury and we would just end up in a bigger debt crisis than the one we can't afford at the minute..

That is true, creating jobs just for the sake of having more people in employment is useless, it would just gobble up more money than in necessary.

What I meant is just a push in the right direction to get people into employment. Not necessarily in the public sector, because creating a ton of unskilled public sector jobs would be a huge step backwards, as you identified. Qualifications and skills to get people into skilled public/private sector jobs would be ideal, because then there is less strain on the taxpayer due to the pensions & such not being entirely funded by the state. Its just a bit of a shame that some people don't really see the incentive to study for a higher paid, skilled job; and would rather just sit around. Anyway what I have said isn't really that valid because of the current climate, due to lack of jobs etc.

 

[Kev M]

I totally agree Graham. There's a big difference between a bit of community work and a permanent job such as national service. There are a few things to consider though.

I would suspect that our employment law would need changing. No doubt if they did too many hours they would be considered an employee and given all manner of perks.

Secondly I would imagine there are all manner or risks associated with liability. All you need is one of the spongers tripping on their shovel and hey presto they're on disability benefits and costing even more.

Thirdly, I dare say there would be no shortage of attempts to find a get out clause.

Essentially though it's the best idea there is and I think I've read somewhere that it is something the new Government is considering in some shape or form.


I think this topic is drifting in two directions, young scrotes causing trouble and dossers on the dole. Perhaps there's a link there though.

 

[foodpoison]

Stop pussy footing around and worrying about human rights. Naughty at school? Give the teachers some god damned power! My mum can't even tell the children at her pre-school to stop what they're doing and do what she's asking them to do, as the Government and Offstead think it's important for children to develop independence. In short? If the kids want to play and not listen to story time, then they can. If they're hungry, they can help themselves to food, irrelevant of the time of day.
What sort of f*****g lesson is that?! Do what you want, when you want, however you want to do it. Don't worry, nothing will happen.

 

[ladysue]

When I left High School in the late 80's, there was still the threat of a teacher throwing something at you or dragging you before the head of Dept. Also the P.E. Teachers were still allowed to make you do PE even if you had forgotten your kit. The spare kit room was one reason NOT to forget your kit Nowadays kids waltz off knowing that the teachers can't touch them for fear of an assault charge.

I'm not saying bring back caning but there is a missing tier between caning and where we are now.

Stop pussy footing around and worrying about human rights. Naughty at school? Give the teachers some god damned power! My mum can't even tell the children at her pre-school to stop what they're doing and do what she's asking them to do, as the Government and Offstead think it's important for children to develop independence. In short? If the kids want to play and not listen to story time, then they can. If they're hungry, they can help themselves to food, irrelevant of the time of day.
What sort of f*****g lesson is that?! Do what you want, when you want, however you want to do it. Don't worry, nothing will happen.

I totally agree. It has got silly.

 

[foodpoison]

My headteacher was one scary guy at my primary school. Remember that substitute teacher who had no control over the class? Well that's kind of what it's like now, with nearly EVERY teacher. 3 strikes and you were out at my school.

 

[SK617]

Then what you say is, "you want benefits? Ok you'll need to do work in your local community for them, cutting the grass, picking up litter, cleaning off grafitti".

Thats more like it!
as to National Service- No, No again and in fact HELL NO!
We dont want them, its bad enough with the recruits coming in now who 'know their rights' etc.
dont get me wrong, get them out on tour or a decent exercise away from their mates at the weekends and they actually turn out ok (mainly)

its the getting them away from the civvi influences that turns them around, making them realise they are not civilians.