It really is time for change

The yobs lives probably won't amount to much if this is how they behave.

I think in part we tackle it by reporting incidents to the police and not letting it affect our own behaviour or drag us down (which is very hard). Act with consideration and spread the love x.
 
If there was a greater threat of punishment these yobs may think twice. But the fact is our prisons are over crowded and they will prob just get a suspended sentence and community service. If they get tagged, it's just another bragging right amongst these degenerates.

Hang em :)
 
I think a Biblical response would be appropriate in cases like this, i.e. An Eye for an Eye.
A thorough thrashing would stimulate empathy with their victims.
As we live in a liberal democracy with an empty exchequer however it is likely the police will assign minimal resources to catch these thugs. If they do manage to fall over the miscreants and arrest them, as has been said, they will likely receive a derisory punishment. Personally, it makes my blood boil.
 
wack61 said:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100720/tuk-vicious-mob-targets-worthy-fundraise-45dbed5.html

Behaviour like this just can't be tolerated, ordinary decent people can't go about their business without the risk of being beaten up, the most shocking part is it was started by your everyday scumbags but the worst damage was done by a man in his 40s.

so what's the answer :shrug:
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A very depressing read.. I just can't conceive how anyone can do that to someone else.

Don't know the answer.. I just can't fathom it. I guess some people are just born scum.

We had the Cambridge Police harrassing a disabled lady in my street who has parked it in the wrong spot and she can't move it. I've seen 3 squad cars and at least 5 officers have a poke around that car this week- including another one ticketing her yesterday (3rd this week). Society just seems screwed up and upside down to me.

Depressing.
 
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KIPAX said:
I dont think you can stop it happening as such as its always happened.. it isnt just nowerdays..
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Perhaps so but not at the frequency it is happening these days.
Like most people I can never work out why caused these morons to act in the way they do but something does have to give.
A lot of blokes I know who did national service said they went in as a boy and came out as a respectable man.
How many 16 year old kids are leaving school and going straight onto the dole?
If they don't want to get a job then stick them in the army and let them get a rude awakening.
 
Anyone who thinks this is a new problem is exceptionally ignorant. Crime is and always has been an issue. Most statistics show a decline in crime - BBC Article. The fear mongering, right wing trash papers do nothing for public perception. If anything they perpetuate the problem and I despise their sensationalist approach to journalism that drives them to publish anything for a few more sales. [/anger]
 
You can't join the Army until you're 16. Whilst a bit of boot camp might sort these lads out from there on in, it won't have stopped them being a bunch of little scrotes causing all sorts of misery up to their 16th birthday. Even the threat of one day doing national service isn't going to stop them from being little scrotes. It's a bit like shutting the door after the horse has bolted, the damage is already done.

Another point being that why is it the Armed Forces' responsibility to sort out the failings of inadequate parenting and a general decay in society?

The Armed Forces already have budgets which fail to meet their expenditure (although a lot could be saved by getting rid of some of the wasters in the procurement departments) so taking on every boy and girl from say 17-19 isn't going to happen.

One of the great thing about our Armed Forces is that they're entirely made up of volunteers unlike many other European nations. They are people who want to be there, doing their bit because they want to, not because somebody told them to.

Now I won't even pretend to have all of the answers, or even any of them. All I have is an opinion. Now I don't think we live in a broken society but I do think we live in a damaged one and there needs to be a lot of work done to try and restore some of it. The biggest problem I think we face here is that there are large swathes of society who don't want to do anything about it, they want someone else to do it for them.

I think the moral compass is royally screwed up for a lot of people, they're lives are blighted but low moral values through gutter journalism, "celebrity" obsession and ***** like Jeremy Kyle and Trisha (and that's just the tip of the iceberg, I could rant on for hours;)). Whilst freedom of speech is fine, the freedom of the internet on people (children) too inexperienced through education and life experience to separate good from bad, right from wrong, acceptable, normal behaviour from that which is unacceptable is a bad thing. I think the internet is great, but not all of it is great for children and too many have unfettered access through a combination of indifferent parenting and the fact that the children probably know more about computers than the parents so any attempts to control their access is bypassed.

[/breathe in];)

Now I'd best write a caveat before I get jumped on that, yes I know it isn't all children that are bad and yes I know not all parents are bad, but truth is, there are plenty of examples of both. Just because you can reproduce doesn't mean you should in my opinion.

Essentially what I'm saying is that by the time national service is a factor it's pretty much too late. The children/youths/young adults you read about in stories like this need setting on the right path long before it gets to this stage and for that they need good parenting, good education, good guidance from other's in society, good examples to look up to and discipline, lots of it.
 
I agree with the Biblical response wholeheartedly :thumbs:; I am also a firm believer in stringent corporal punishment.

Prison isn't an answer, as it's supposed to be a rehabilitation centre for certain crimes; hence not suitable for all crimes.

Sending scums to clear war stricken parts of the world from land-mines comes to mind, and I mean this with all seriousness.

Where's Arkady? May be he can set-up a cottage business of relieving HMP from the too many inmates, sending them off to where they ought to be, wearing bright red carrying ghetto-blasters to make sure anyone can see & hear them.
 
Triggerhappy and Kipax touch on another good point, that crime is nothing new. And whilst I wouldn't touch the statistics on crime with a bargepole (after all, there are lies, damn lies and statistics) are there actually more crimes/are crimes becoming more violent or are we just more aware of them through increased media exposure? Keep going back in ten year blocks and think how the media, it's quality and our exposure to it has changed. So perhaps things aren't worse than before, we're just more aware of them.

Still doesn't make it right though and National Service still isn't the answer (in my opinion).
 
You make a valid point with the crime rate vs. media, Sir :p

But I am a firm believer that the tax system in the UK, and the prisons can be relieved by harsher punishment; and to let the criminals do the dirty work that good hard working tax payers end-up doing (like getting killed up-holding the freedom which these scums end-up abusing)!
 
Kev M said:
National Service still isn't the answer (in my opinion).
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compared to the current policy of letting gangs of essentially feral youths roam free, safe in the knowledge that they can get away with pretty much anything, it seems an ideal option to me......
 
I'm not sure that'd work Wail.

People fight to the death for their country because they believe in their cause. I think if you sent a load of people off to fight for something they either didn't believe in, didn't understand, or were too lazy/apathetic to fight for then the rights you enjoy, fought for by those that do might one day disappear.

But education at a younger age into those causes may be of some use. Many on here will have a direct link to the last great war that really affected the entire country in a way which I think no war since probably has done. That will be through direct experience, or relatives or friends. It won't be so long before that link is gone, so how do you then make a nation understand what has been sacrificed in the name of justice and civil liberties and what those sacrifices were for?
 
I wouldn't want to tarnish the good reputation the UK armed forces have, by having such thugs put with good people.

However, there has to be a way to "extradite" them to where they ought to be of good use, with pay matching the minimum wage in the relevant country (not UK minimum wage), and a bit of rehabilitation.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
compared to the current policy of letting gangs of essentially feral youths roam free, safe in the knowledge that they can get away with pretty much anything, it seems an ideal option to me......
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What do you do with the feral gangs under the age of national service though?

For those old enough, it might not be a bad idea, but it isn't affordable or practical. We used to have institutions to educate children, provide discipline and set them on the right path. Then those given the task of providing education and discipline had both hands tied behind their backs so they couldn't throw blackboard rubbers at the unruly ones;)
 
Oh, not to fight, not at all. That would be mad, giving them knowledge how to handle guns :eek:

:nono:, and I know my point of view here is particularly harsh, as I've seen this my whole life; but sending street terrorists to do grunt work in danger zones will make them love their soul a lot more and hence more likely to walk as if on fragile grounds, for the rest of their lives.

Once someone faces certain death and can't do anything about it, they start to appreciate every second they're alive, and will reciprocate that appreciation with how they treat others.
 
The Cane at school is the missing part of their early lives which insills respect & untolerable behaviour with discipline.

It all comes down to the above, look back at history !
 
Kev M said:
What do you do with the feral gangs under the age of national service though?

For those old enough, it might not be a bad idea, but it isn't affordable or practical. We used to have institutions to educate children, provide discipline and set them on the right path. Then those given the task of providing education and discipline had both hands tied behind their backs so they couldn't throw blackboard rubbers at the unruly ones;)
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So, what would you suggest as a cost-effective alternative?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
National service
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No. I'll use me as an example to explain how.

I did school to 18, a year off (which I spent working full time to build up funds for university) three years at university and have been in full time employment since for 19 years. I have never been in trouble with the police, have no criminal record, not even a parking fine. So what could be called a model citizen (subject actually, this is a monarchy and we are subjects of the crown).

How would National service make a difference to me? It would have made me a criminal as I would have refused conscription and presumably have been jailed for however long it was. What a splendid start to my adult life.

Not every teenager is a thuggish scrote. Some work bloody hard at school, don't go out and get drunk all the time and get on with life minding their own business. Conscription would be of no benefit to many of them.

One size fits all is rarely a good idea.
 
I have a solution. swap them with people in third world countries who want a chance to have a life without fear. That way we can solve 2 problems: have people who want a chance at being in england come here without the overcrowding issues, and get rid of idiots who ruin britain. :)

I'm against forced national service, but as a compromise they could be used to work out where mines are. If they don't want the pain of having bits blown off, they can be shot first and then used to find mines.
 
onomatopoeia said:
No. I'll use me as an example to explain how.

I did school to 18, a year off (which I spent working full time to build up funds for university) three years at university and have been in full time employment since for 19 years. I have never been in trouble with the police, have no criminal record, not even a parking fine. So what could be called a model citizen (subject actually, this is a monarchy and we are subjects of the crown).

How would National service make a difference to me? It would have made me a criminal as I would have refused conscription and presumably have been jailed for however long it was. What a splendid start to my adult life.

Not every teenager is a thuggish scrote. Some work bloody hard at school, don't go out and get drunk all the time and get on with life minding their own business. Conscription would be of no benefit to many of them.

One size fits all is rarely a good idea.
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Okay, how about the way they do it in Denmark then? When you leave school you either go to technical college/university, get a job, or do National Service.
 
Like I said before Graham, I don't have all the answers, I just have an opinion and my opinion is that it isn't the Armed Forces' job to fix parental/social failings.

Now I'm as anti liberal-lefty as the next grumpy old git but I think that apart from discipline and guidance, what these youths are probably missing is a sense of direction or purpose. That's something else that their parents probably aren't giving them.

I remember when I was in the scouts 15-20 years ago there were funding problems. The hut was falling down, costs were going up and I suspect things have probably only become worse over time. Add to that increased bureaucracy and legislation over the last 13 years and it just makes it more difficult for places that used to give children an outlet to continue operating. Places like the Boy's Club (which despite the name didn't exclude girls) which was essentially a big youth club was always on the verge of closure due to lack of funds, yet it was an important part of the community.

You also need community volunteers to contribute to these activities but everyone is so busy now that they simply don't have the time so somebody else is going to have to do it. Problem is, there isn't anyone. Not to mention the fear of liability for actually taking responsibility for these activities.

I think that the problem with these children is much bigger than being just about the children themselves.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Okay, how about the way they do it in Denmark then? When you leave school you either go to technical college/university, get a job, or do National Service.
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We deal with some Dutch folk through work, and not a single one of them is aggresive, rude, arrogant...we could learn a lot from that sort of system.. Norway do something similar I beleive
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Okay, how about the way they do it in Denmark then? When you leave school you either go to technical college/university, get a job, or do National Service.
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That'd be an easy one. Go to college, doss around for a couple more years, then on to university to do the same until you're safely away from the threat of National Service. But in England, with the lack of discipline in our educational establishments they'll just be scrotes in college instead of scrotes in school/on the dole.

I've been to Denmark a couple of time with my job but don't know much about the country as a whole other than it's bloody expensive. The one thing I would say is that from what I've seen it's an immaculately presented country, I've never seen litter there and when I came back to the UK and went to a customer's site in London I was depressed at the condition of our environment and wanted to be back in Denmark. But I suspect that if the rest of Denmark is like the little bit that I've seen then it comes down to respect and that must be taught to their youth long before they're eligible for national service.
 
Kev M said:
That'd be an easy one. Go to college, doss around for a couple more years, then on to university to do the same until you're safely away from the threat of National Service. But in England, with the lack of discipline in our educational establishments they'll just be scrotes in college instead of scrotes in school/on the dole.

I've been to Denmark a couple of time with my job but don't know much about the country as a whole other than it's bloody expensive. The one thing I would say is that from what I've seen it's an immaculately presented country, I've never seen litter there and when I came back to the UK and went to a customer's site in London I was depressed at the condition of our environment and wanted to be back in Denmark. But I suspect that if the rest of Denmark is like the little bit that I've seen then it comes down to respect and that must be taught to their youth long before they're eligible for national service.
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Well, unfortunately yes, you will get those who will choose the educational route simply to get out of NS, in fact I remember one Danish guy at uni with me doing a degree for exactly that reason. he faffed around and did no work and left without a degree.

I would imagine that he was in the minority though, to be afforded the chance to take the university option one would have to studied hard enough at school to attain sufficiently high grades to meet the entrance criteria. Those most likely to be troublemakers are the ones who would probably have failed the tests to get into the technical college, never mind uni, ergo would be the ones dispatched away to do NS.

I agree with you about Denmark as a place though, in my (brief) time there I only saw one piece of graffiti and that was outside the football stadium in Aalborg, the rest of the place was immaculate.
 
I dont think the answer is to beat the bad kids. There are other things that have changed in the last 30 years besides stopping corporal punishment in schools.I was at school in the days of caning and I was terrified of the teachers and hated school.Sometimes children were caned when they didnt deserve it and grew up resentful and nervous.Big people beating little people with sticks does not teach people to be kind to those weaker than themselves. Modelling decent caring behaviour does.

I think that children, and particularly boys, now lack positive role models. Many boys now grow up without fathers- 30 years ago that was not the case and 50 years ago it was usually only when their fathers had died. Parents now are more interested in having fun and as easy a life as possible that they are neglecting children's needs.Parents no longer stay together for the sake of the children. As soon as parents, often mothers I ashamed to say, get fed up with being married they divorce. Its far too easy to do but has a great impact on children, especially boys. Boys often have no father figure to model themselves on and children have no respect for their parents.Respect has to be earned. They see parents out to get everything they can from welfare, or so concerned about getting enough money for the best gadgets, foreign holidays etc that they dont have time to even talk to their kids or do anything to help others.Its a me, me, me, society now.

Children and teenagers are what we have made them. If parents are no longer willing to be role models for children it will be down to the state to provide them. I dont think National Service for criminals is the answer because, as others have said, we need men in our services that are motivated to protect others.I would like to see something similar though- some form of training, which is physical and disciplined and teaches useful skills, like the old approved schools, for young thugs, with follow up from mentors who would support and monitor them once out in society. Men leaving the armed forces would be good at these jobs or policemen retiring early.We also need to catch children early, as young as 4 or 5, boys particularly where there is no male in the household or a criminal male. There should be a network of decent people who could be paid a small amount to mentor these kids.

OK thats me off my soapbox.
 
I do not believe any statistics that suggest crime levels have dropped.
There are many areas in England, Scotland and Wales, where years ago you would hardly see any crime at all. The number of areas that are crime free in Britain is now minimal.
There are many contributing factors that can lead to crime, some of which have been mentioned already, broken families, lack of discipline in schools, lack of employment and so on. Irrespective of the causes, which will have to be addressed at some stage, there is an urgent need to tackle the problem head on. If it means building more prisons, introducing national service (although our troops have enough to deal with, without training scum), or giving the police more power and less paper work, something has to be done, and fast.
How many countries around the world, would allow their police force to be abused every weekend the way we do.
Rehabilitation is not working (Jon Venables for example).
Hardened criminals only understand one thing, come down on them hard, very hard, and tell the liberal do-gooders to keep their noses out, until we get this country back on it feet again.
 
Sue,

While I agree with much of what you've said, the role model is only a temporary bridge. Most of those I know, once we grew up we realised that our dad wasn't the super hero we thought of when we were kids! Many, also, didn't have their dads around, they were working in far off lands, and as kids we were too young to understand why.

Fear is always a good motivator, so is a firm and dreaded punishment system. Once an individual rests in the knowledge that they're getting off easy, or can plea-bargain their way out, etc., then the system starts to crumble.

This phenomenon isn't unique to UK, it's also happening in my country; and I blame the slackness of the authority.

Yes, the government aren't the ones responsible to ensure that kids are reared well, but the failure of the parents should result in the governments taking stringent action.

My dad always said "just because I have a functioning reproductive organ, that doesn't qualify me to be a parent", and he's right on the spot with that.

I'm not saying that I've been brought up better, and that I am all well mannered. I've certainly have had my share of troubles, and have been harshly punished for it. Of course, I hated those who punished me, when I was a kid; but now as an adult, I'd go on my knees and kiss the feet of everyone who's taken tough action against my untidy behaviour, they did me a favour.
 
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Wail

I still think that caning kids does more harm than good. All the psychopaths I have known have been savagely beaten, abused, as kids.

I do think that we have gone too far in not allowing teachers to touch the kids at all though. They have to be able to restrain them and expel them from the classroom if they are causing trouble. My brother is a teacher and was recently confronted with two pupils who had brought whips into the classroom and were fighting with them. He got hit trying to disarm one but if he had grabbed hold of the boys he would have been disciplined.

if you are living in Saudi I believe that corporal punishment is used as a punishment so if you still have problems I think that shows that harsh physical punishment is not the answer.

I am not soft though. I believe that physical training, drilling, working hard and learning teamwork builds self esteem and self discipline.I think that all the health and safety rules are doing our children an injustice, especially boys. They need to be challenged so that they can feel proud of their achievements.There will always be a risk when kids are taken on adventurous activities but this is not nearly as great as growing up on an estate run by gangs with knives.

I think ( hope anyway) that there are people in government that know what needs to be done.I hope they get to do it.

Although you may have realised as an adult that your dad wasnt perfect
( and who is?) he was still in your life. Just because he was human doesnt mean he was not important to your development.Even Dad's working abroad are providing a role model of working for their family.

It is interesting hearing the viewpoint of someone living in another country.
Sue
 
I live between UK and Saudi, but am currently in Saudi.

As for corporal punishment, it has been banned here since a couple of decades; and it's when we started seeing kids lose respect for adults :thumbsdown:

Saudi, like most countries, is under a lot of pressure from "political correctness" rubbish that is driving the social values down the gutter, I'm afraid.

I love the UK, as it is and as it was; but it saddens me to see how criminals are getting away with lenient punishment, while hard working exemplary tax payers get serious criminal records for something politically incorrect :shrug:

I hope you see my point; as it is far be for me to think less of the UK law, it's a country I come to when I want peace and tranquility in my life.
 
I certainly agree with you about "political correctness". I am hoping that our new government will repeal some of the crazy laws on that.

I hope you can continue to find peace and tranquillity whenever you visit our lovely country.

Sue
 
Ordinary people take their communities back. That's how we end this.
 
Too many people expect the law and the government to protect us. But it's a two way thing. We need to look out for our communities and report things to the police and send a signal that this won't be tolerated.
 
That's what can happen in StalyVegas!!

Bloody yobs.

I think the problem has come about because of a lack of self respect, pride and fear of a greater power.
 
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