Israel..

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And the point I keep coming back to is that hamas are killing civilians as well (and using their own civilians as a human sheild) - if Hamas didnt hide behind their own population israel wouldnt be targetting them - unlike Hamas who deliberately target the isreali civilian population. - seem's to me that its not the Isreali side who are the ones commiting war crimes here

My opinion is that both sides are in the wrong but Israel needs to take a moral stance and give some concessions
one side has to take the initiative and hamas never will so it has to be Israel
the blockade of gaza makes it difficult for ordinary people to live decently
having fresh water is a basic human right
it's ordinary people that are suffering and Israels current policy is only making things worse
 
My opinion is that both sides are in the wrong but Israel needs to take a moral stance and give some concessions
one side has to take the initiative and hamas never will so it has to be Israel
the blockade of gaza makes it difficult for ordinary people to live decently
having fresh water is a basic human right
it's ordinary people that are suffering and Israels current policy is only making things worse

Unfortunately Israel won't because they can't afford to give concessions. To do so would only encourage Hamas to ratchet up their activities at some future date in the belief that somehow they are "wining". That is the way it would be prensted to and read by other Palestinians and the wider Arab world. In turn that will encourage them to further attacks on Israel, hence more reprisals by Israel and more suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza.
 
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I think if the palestinians only wanted Gaza unmollested that could be negotiatied (pretty much as it was when the ruling party was the PLO under arrafat), but Hamas don't just want gaza they want the total destruction of the state of Isreal and to reclaim 'palestine' - whether we agree with that claim or not I think we can all understand why the Isrealis arent going to agree to that, and also why the IDF isnt going to allow Hamas to use Gaza as a base to attack the rest of Isreal from.

So a lasting treaty isnt going to be posible which leaves only

a) taking Israel's side and the total destruction of a palestian state - thats not going to happen because the Gulf states who control our oil supply won't wear it, plus you'd have an ongoing terorist problem
b)taking the palestian side and the total destruction of Israel and the resurection of Palestine - which isnt going to happen because i) USA would never wear it, and ii) you'd only wind up with a jewish terrorist problem instead
c) A strong peace keeping force - which will never happen because there are no countries with the millitary ability to make it stick who would be acceptable to both sides
or
d) Leaving them to fight among themselves - which is pretty much where we are already
 
But in answer, I'd mention that the outstanding UN resolutions placed obligations on both sides in the 1967 Six Days War, that have not been met by many of the obliged, including but not limited to the right of the State of Israel to exist. Like so many things in the middle East, the reality of ignoring UN resolutions is not so simple.

Actually look at the principle point

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Seems a VERY clear obligation. And in the subsequent 51 YEARS Israel has failed to abide by that resolution. Now when Saddam failed to abide by a UNSC Resolution, that failure was used as the legal basis for war.....
There should not be any talk about concessions until Israel stops breaking international law, abides by UNSC Resolutions and stops the illegal occupation of sovereign territory. Once that is done, then the rest can be discussed. Then, maybe the ongoing situation of apartheid that exists in Israel can be addressed by the international community.
 
Actually look at the principle point

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Seems a VERY clear obligation. And in the subsequent 51 YEARS Israel and neighbouring ARAB have states have failed to abide by that resolution. Now when Saddam failed to abide by a UNSC Resolution, that failure was used as the legal basis for war.....
There should not be any talk about concessions until Israel stops breaking international law, abides by UNSC Resolutions and stops the illegal occupation of sovereign territory. Once that is done, then the rest can be discussed. Then, maybe the ongoing situation of apartheid that exists in Israel can be addressed by the international community.

There fixed it for you.
 
Actually look at the principle point

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Seems a VERY clear obligation. And in the subsequent 51 YEARS Israel has failed to abide by that resolution. Now when Saddam failed to abide by a UNSC Resolution, that failure was used as the legal basis for war.....
There should not be any talk about concessions until Israel stops breaking international law, abides by UNSC Resolutions and stops the illegal occupation of sovereign territory. Once that is done, then the rest can be discussed. Then, maybe the ongoing situation of apartheid that exists in Israel can be addressed by the international community.


That is exactly how I see the situation.
I would also add, that in addition to the UN resolutions which Israel has been allowed to ignore (No threat of sanctions or war against Israel by the US/UK or anyone for that matter), there are scores of proposed resolutions which have failed due to the tiresome practice of the US using their power of veto to stop them.
If you ignore the actions of the bully, then the bully will keep on bullying.
 
No you didn't. You merely acted as an apologist for a bullying nation used to breaking international law without recrimination.

The intent of (ii) is quite clear. You are the one who has singled out Israel to be at fault for not observing it.
 
The British and USA governments targetted civilians with their bombing in WW2. I regard those as war crimes. In addition it did very little to shorten the war. Bombing of military and industrial/transport targets is, of course, different. However, the Nazis, British and Americans intentionally targetted civilians.

Which it wasn't at the time. It's very difficult to backdate any legislation, especially International law. Of course the allies, which included the French, Polish, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and many other Countries did the same thing, those Countries now being a major part of the free world. Germany was hardly blameless either, it was something they did on a regular basis. 2 wrongs doesn't make it right, but that was war at that time.

At the time, the justification was it was 'total' war, and everyone on both sides contributed so was fair game. Thats an arguable point, but not, at the moment directly relatable to the Middle East.

The History of Israel goes back far further than the end of WW2, and is far more complex than has been portrayed here. Both in a nutshell, it now exists, and short of wiping it from the face of the earth, which oddly is what Hamas and a lot of other Arab groups want, it will continue to exist.

And that is the difficulty. Hamas and Co think they have a right to remove the state of Israel from the map, Israel thinks it has the right to self defence. Trouble is, the latter is enshrined in international law, the former is not.

Israel, whatever the rights and wrongs of now have put up with a great deal of provocation. They've been shelled and bombed for months this time round, and taken it on the chin. At some point, something was going to give, and it has.

Given Hamas wont negotiate until they are on the receiving end at which point they scream foul, I don't see what else the Israelis can do. They give, Hamas starts again and wants more. They act, and the world recoils in horror. It's no win for them.

Yep granted innocent Palestinians are getting caught up, but they could do something about it, withdraw support for Hamas. They wont though.

The US, UK and France aren't that keen on getting in the way too much, especially the US who have too many people in influence who share a religious belief with Israel, hence the US arms Israel to the extent it does. Although it should be noted they are very capable of their own arms manufacture, the Iron Dome being a good example of probably the most advanced anti missile system in operational use. Besides Israel is a stumbling block to the World wide Islamic fundamentalist state, which if Israel falls is something that will start to come to pass a great deal sooner. I don't think the groups involved in that are going to give a stuff about 'war criminals' when they get round to that seriously.

I suppose the point is that it isn't going to get solved, probably ever, simply because it is unsolvable.
 
The intent of (ii) is quite clear. You are the one who has singled out Israel to be at fault for not observing it.
The wording of (i) is very specific. Of all the region, Israel is the ONLY country mentioned. Yet you feel it's ok for it to ignore the resolution. Interesting.
 
The wording of (i) is very specific. Of all the region, Israel is the ONLY country mentioned. Yet you feel it's ok for it to ignore the resolution. Interesting.

Sure do! The reason being that the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states refused to "respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force" and still do.

And whilst we're at it UN Resolution 181 (which is really at the root of all this) was accepted by Israel but not by the Palestinians and the other Arab states. Israel is no more guilty in this than the Arabs, and blame needs to apportioned equally.
 
Sure do! The reason being that the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states refused to "respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force" and still do.

And whilst we're at it UN Resolution 181 (which is really at the root of all this) was accepted by Israel but not by the Palestinians and the other Arab states. Israel is no more guilty in this than the Arabs, and blame needs to apportioned equally.

Incredible. Whilst there are apologists for state sanctioned terror like you around there is no hope for peace out there. All nations should abide by international law, no one should be immune. There are always excuses for Israel's non adherence to the law and UN mandates. A true believer in a peaceful solution would ensure first and foremost that those obligations are met.
I wonder how you'd feel if your country was stolen from you and replaced by an artificially created one in which you didn't have the same rights and opportunities as those gifted the "promised" land. Have a read of Carter's book. It's interesting. Also have a read of the US State Department's report of the apartheid that exists out there. But people like you probably believe that's ok too.
 
Incredible. Whilst there are apologists for state sanctioned terror like you around there is no hope for peace out there. All nations should abide by international law, no one should be immune. There are always excuses for Israel's non adherence to the law and UN mandates. A true believer in a peaceful solution would ensure first and foremost that those obligations are met.
I wonder how you'd feel if your country was stolen from you and replaced by an artificially created one in which you didn't have the same rights and opportunities as those gifted the "promised" land. Have a read of Carter's book. It's interesting. Also have a read of the US State Department's report of the apartheid that exists out there. But people like you probably believe that's ok too.

At last we agree on something. "All nations should abide by international law, no one should be immune". That'll include the Palestinians then. As I said before, Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs are equally culpable in this current mess. Which bit of that didn't you understand?
 
At last we agree on something. "All nations should abide by international law, no one should be immune". That'll include the Palestinians then. As I said before, Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs are equally culpable in this current mess. Which bit of that didn't you understand?
Which nation, other than Israel, are you referring to?
 
Yep granted innocent Palestinians are getting caught up, but they could do something about it, withdraw support for Hamas. They wont though.

Not won't. Can't! It is difficult for them. Hamas rules its own territory with extreme force and terror. As soon as it gained power in Gaza, it immediately cleansed much of its Fatah opposition. Does that sound familiar? It's not just because Hamas' charter dedicates itself to the elimination and murder of every Jew everywhere, not just Israelis, that it shows itself as the governing party anywhere in the world that is nearest to the Nazi's Third Reich! Its abuse of its own people is abhorent.

Sadly a lot of people appease and support Hamas, even people here, without realising their role as 'useful idiots'! Even more sadly they are probably people who, self righteously but wrongly, struggle to realise they're apologists for totalitarianism and not self-proclaimed Anti-Fascists at all!
 
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"Useful Idiots", they get everywhere. Americans fund raising for the IRA because they had some romantic notion of a united Ireland, and apologists in the UK who want to bend over backwards to anyone and then wonder why they abuse in return.
While there are people in the world, there will always be some that can't see what's beyond their nose.
 
The British and USA governments targetted civilians with their bombing in WW2. I regard those as war crimes. In addition it did very little to shorten the war. Bombing of military and industrial/transport targets is, of course, different. However, the Nazis, British and Americans intentionally targetted civilians.

What utter and complete codswallop.
 
Incredible. Whilst there are apologists for state sanctioned terror like you around there is no hope for peace out there. All nations should abide by international law, no one should be immune. There are always excuses for Israel's non adherence to the law and UN mandates. A true believer in a peaceful solution would ensure first and foremost that those obligations are met.
I wonder how you'd feel if your country was stolen from you and replaced by an artificially created one in which you didn't have the same rights and opportunities as those gifted the "promised" land. Have a read of Carter's book. It's interesting. Also have a read of the US State Department's report of the apartheid that exists out there. But people like you probably believe that's ok too.

So, when Sharon went completely against his govt and withdrew from several areas to try to promote peace with Arafat, there are rumours that Hamas killed Arafat and seized power. What is certain is that Hamas took their opportunity and did their best to invoke war, leading to the 2009 conflict.

It's such a complicated, historical issue. Even our peace envoy, Blair, won't go anywhere near it ;) but trying to just take a simple issue of bad Israel, good Hamas doesn't even touch the surface.
 
The British and USA governments targetted civilians with their bombing in WW2. I regard those as war crimes. In addition it did very little to shorten the war. Bombing of military and industrial/transport targets is, of course, different. However, the Nazis, British and Americans intentionally targetted civilians.

To be fair, the Norton Bomb sight and the UK Equivalent worked very well in daylight and calm air with an expert operating it.
It was slightly less accurate when bombing a target while being bounced around by flak, blinded by searchlights (for the Night bombers) or bothered by marauding Me109's/GW190's/ME163's/Me110's and ME262's. Not to mention a wind that wasn't quite going where the Met man said it was, being aimed at a target that may be a few 1000 yards away from where you were told it was.
At that time, you were lucky to hit the same city (and often they didn't) never mind the actual target!
Of course that could be called deliberate bombing of civilians, many of who worked worked either in the target or in industry supporting that, but working that out needs thought.
 
Which nation, other than Israel, are you referring to?

Now you are being disingenuous. You know full well that the civil war of 1947 (following the refusal of the Arab states to accept the misbegotten UN Resolution 181) turned into an open war, in 1948, when Eygpt, Jordan and Syria, together with Iraqi forces, attacked the Israelis. The fact that this sore is still festering after nearly seventy years is due in no small part to the ineffectual meddling of the UN in 1947/48 which has consistently failed to offer any kind of realistic hope for a peaceful settlement in the region. Nor is it helped by the Hamas (and Hezbollah) charters which both explicitly state that their goal is to “obliterate” Israel. Perhaps renouncing that might be a starting point for a settlement?

Incidentally, where's the Middle East Peace Envoy in all this? Tony Blair, I mean?
 
Now you are being disingenuous.

No I am not. I stated that all nations should abide by international law. You said you agree. So, given that Israel

a) still hasn't abided by the relevant US SC resolution ordering it to withdraw to behind the pre-1967 border

b) still is breaking international law in illegally occupying sovereign territory in the GH

I ask again, which nation, other than Israel, is in breach of UN SC resolution 242? The resolution that specifically states that Israel withdraw from occupied territory?
 
The ones that still wish to obliterate Israel do not, by definition, agree to have "respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force". Those conditions have not been met; Israel will not budge either.

I'm concerned that your inability to see both sides of the issue is clouding your judgement to the necessity for both sides to compromise. It's very difficult to even reach a ceasefire when one party (Hamas) insists on putting conditions on it. This problem is not going away any time soon. There will be a ceasefire (hopefully) soon. In the fullness of time Hamas will break that ceasefire and history will keep repeating itself.

I am now finding this conversation tedious. Whilst I am able to see both sides of the problem, you appear completely biased to one point of view. I will simply repeat what is a fact:

Hamas stop fighting = peace.
Israel stop fighting = no Israel.

Of course that is your agenda.

I'm closing our discussion now, because by the time we are halfway down page 3, the Mods will have closed it for us; believe me.
 
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