Is your equipment your priority?

[AliB]

I don't know what it is about equipment but I've noticed on logging on that the number of people inhabiting the many and varied forums (fora?) on TP has changed in the last year.

In days of old I'd log on and the proportion of people in the "talk photography" forum would roughly equal the number in the "equipment" forum with the rest of happy campers spread around the various "Oh look, an actual picture" forums.

This morning at 7am there were 14 hardy souls in TP and 20 in equipment with all the others attracting 3 or 4.

So, is photography about the end product for you? is it about taking an image and seeing what you can produce in PP? or is it about collecting the best gear you can? and is that then enough or do you try to get the best out of your shinies?

 

[alexkidd]

Images are paramount however i love technology

 

[EdinburghGary]

I have noticed a fairly massive shift from the crit forums into other areas too, probably a skewed vision though based on the fact that I don't spend much time in Picture Sharing these days...

G.

 

[Rob 80386]

Images are paramount however i love technology

I agree, equipment is one thing, but the overall end result should be what it can produce..... photographs

However I also love technology

 

[foggy4ever]

Images are paramount however i love technology

That sums it up perfectly. I'm always looking to expand/Improve my gear but it's the end product that counts and as to pp the less the better for me.

Having top quality gear gives you 1 less excuse when you shot is ****

 

[Jayst84]

Most people on here are hobbyists. Hobbyists love stuff, things they can play with, gadgets.

Personally I have some very nice gadgets, but I bought them because they allow me to do my job easier.

 

[Dave Pickett]

I have noticed a fairly massive shift from the crit forums into other areas too, probably a skewed vision though based on the fact that I don't spend much time in Picture Sharing these days...

One of the problems on here is that the criticism is often harsh, and lacks any constructive comment on how an image could be better. I dont post any more on there, as long as I like the image then I really dont care what others think!

I do like the technology, and spend a lot of time in the equipment forums, and am always looking at the next gadget to spend my money on. I have also reached the point where I need a reason to actually take a photo, so am looking at opportunities to sell photos....

Cameras are to some extent like watches in that they are male jewellery (but have a use as well!)

 

[pragmatist]

Technology....What technology? Seriously though i am a camera and equipment geek but having said that if the outcome was not favourable image wise then it's about as much use as a chocolate fireguard to me.

 

[boyfalldown]

One of the problems on here is that the criticism is often harsh, and lacks any constructive comment on how an image could be better. I dont post any more on there, as long as I like the image then I really dont care what others think!

really? - I think its often not harsh enough, although I do have to agree theres not much constructive in much of it. I'd love more C & C and lack of it is one of the main reasons I don't post in that section often

 

[Denyerec]

Critique is meant to be critical. Constructive critique is an additional Forums head this way for a couple of reasons.
1- Someone asks for critique. They get it, full fat, no corners cut. The thread dissolves into a defensive tribunal because the person asking for critique didn't really want it, they just wanted some ooohs and ahhhs. Two results. The person posting doesn't post another critique (Or does so in a 'what do you think, not looking for a hard crit' style) and the person who delivered the honest and most likely useful criticism is alienated and, after the initial bashing, can no longer be bothered to respond to such threads in the future as their insight is so clearly not valued)

2- It's the internet. The people on it are not outside taking photos, they are inside on the internet. This will yield a higher proportion of technical, kit-happy people to passionate photographers by default. You see it on every single internet forum out there. There is of course nothing wrong with being a kit-happy techhie (Am am one myself), just don't be surprised to see it take hold of a forum.

I've been burned too many times offering my opinion on people's photos, getting dragged into defensive debates or flat out being chided for my opinion being worthless (Hey, they asked for it...) so it's no wonder I'm hesitant to continue doing so. I don't believe I'm alone here either, which might well help explain the decline in people willing to articulate their opinions on non-technical matters.

 

[pragmatist]

[QUOTE=Dave Pickett;2649298 as long as I like the image then I really dont care what others think!

 

[Jayst84]

...so it's no wonder I'm hesitant to continue doing so. I don't believe I'm alone here either, which might well help explain the decline in people willing to articulate their opinions on non-technical matters.

Aye, I got bored of giving critique, as more often than not it's ignored. Not that it bothers me, I need to spend less time on tinternet anyway.

 

[ryanyboy]

Critique is meant to be critical. Constructive critique is an additional Forums head this way for a couple of reasons.
1- Someone asks for critique. They get it, full fat, no corners cut. The thread dissolves into a defensive tribunal because the person asking for critique didn't really want it, they just wanted some ooohs and ahhhs. Two results. The person posting doesn't post another critique (Or does so in a 'what do you think, not looking for a hard crit' style) and the person who delivered the honest and most likely useful criticism is alienated and, after the initial bashing, can no longer be bothered to respond to such threads in the future as their insight is so clearly not valued)

2- It's the internet. The people on it are not outside taking photos, they are inside on the internet. This will yield a higher proportion of technical, kit-happy people to passionate photographers by default. You see it on every single internet forum out there. There is of course nothing wrong with being a kit-happy techhie (Am am one myself), just don't be surprised to see it take hold of a forum.

Good post. Slightly away from the OP but pretty much spot on.

 

[grumpybadger]

I used to spend most of my time hanging around in the Crit sections but 2 things have happened. Traffic has increased massively which means people aren't getting the feeedback they deserve and "nice pic" has taken over the world.

Therefore, I post much less there now and hang mostly around equipment as it is generally less contentious and I can still contribute. I've never been clear what basic "TP" is about anyway as we have so many fora, there should be very little left to go in here...

 

[neil_g]

i seem to spend most of my life in computers and business sections at the mo i think?

 

[awp]

Critique is meant to be critical. Constructive critique is an additional Forums head this way for a couple of reasons.
1- Someone asks for critique. They get it, full fat, no corners cut. The thread dissolves into a defensive tribunal because the person asking for critique didn't really want it, they just wanted some ooohs and ahhhs. Two results. The person posting doesn't post another critique (Or does so in a 'what do you think, not looking for a hard crit' style) and the person who delivered the honest and most likely useful criticism is alienated and, after the initial bashing, can no longer be bothered to respond to such threads in the future as their insight is so clearly not valued)

I agree with this completely. There are also a large number of people come asking for advice and then ignore good advice in favour of what they believed/wanted to hear in the first place. No point in giving advice sometimes when you know it's going to be ignored.

Sorry - having re-read the OP this doesn't really answer her question! I think a lot of people expect better equipment to produce better photographs - which of course it doesn't - might produce sharper but not better.

I don't really want for anything in equipment - I have what I need to do the job - it's the picture that counts for me.

 

[Strangways]

I think it has swung towards the equipment because there are more people getting interested in photography and wanting to step up to DSLR. Those that have been here a short while have also seen some of the wonderful photographs that have been posted and want to upgrade there equipment in an effort to produce the same results.

 

[CaptainPenguin]

Critique is meant to be critical. Constructive critique is an additional Forums head this way for a couple of reasons.
1- Someone asks for critique. They get it, full fat, no corners cut. The thread dissolves into a defensive tribunal because the person asking for critique didn't really want it, they just wanted some ooohs and ahhhs. Two results. The person posting doesn't post another critique (Or does so in a 'what do you think, not looking for a hard crit' style) and the person who delivered the honest and most likely useful criticism is alienated and, after the initial bashing, can no longer be bothered to respond to such threads in the future as their insight is so clearly not valued)

2- It's the internet. The people on it are not outside taking photos, they are inside on the internet. This will yield a higher proportion of technical, kit-happy people to passionate photographers by default. You see it on every single internet forum out there. There is of course nothing wrong with being a kit-happy techhie (Am am one myself), just don't be surprised to see it take hold of a forum.

I've been burned too many times offering my opinion on people's photos, getting dragged into defensive debates or flat out being chided for my opinion being worthless (Hey, they asked for it...) so it's no wonder I'm hesitant to continue doing so. I don't believe I'm alone here either, which might well help explain the decline in people willing to articulate their opinions on non-technical matters.

An excellent point Den I also have been slagged off for giving what I believe to be Constructive Critisism only to find the poster being very defensive especially in the scary area of wedding photography.It would be interesting to see an age breakdown on Kit v Pictures threads my guess is that old fogies like me lean more towards taking pictures whereas the Young Turks are happier talking about the latest kit

 

[EdinburghGary]

stuff

You created one of those "Crit the Crit threads" threads!!!


Can I therefore officially Crit the Crit the Crit Threads Thread? And if anyone feels like they would like to Crit my post, or Crit the Crit Post in the Crit the Crit the Crit Threads Thread, then by all means do so, I can take it!

G.

 

[Kev M]

Perhaps the mods should add phrases like "nice pic" and "great light" to the swear filter, forcing people to add some actual reasoning to their responses otherwise they just end up with **** *** and ***** *****.:shrug:

 

[awp]

Can I therefore officially Crit the Crit the Crit Threads Thread? And if anyone feels like they would like to Crit my post, or Crit the Crit Post in the Crit the Crit the Crit Threads Thread, then by all means do so, I can take it!

G.

You had another later night Gary?

 

[menthel]

An excellent point Den I also have been slagged off for giving what I believe to be Constructive Critisism only to find the poster being very defensive especially in the scary area of wedding photography.It would be interesting to see an age breakdown on Kit v Pictures threads my guess is that old fogies like me lean more towards taking pictures whereas the Young Turks are happier talking about the latest kit

If I had more time to take pictures I would ask for more constructive criticism. However, it is important that it is constructive. I have posted pics here before and just been patronised! Its not too hard that if you can see what is wrong in a picture to suggest some things to make sure it is right. I think it is the least we can do. Its better than nice picture anyway, unless it is really juist a nice picture with nothing wrong!

On the forum front, I find tech less interesting as half of the threads are about, 'ooh look how much I just spent' and the other half degenerate into 'banter' over brands. I much prefer looking at piccies and loafing around in the other sections!

 

[Andysnap]

I don't post as much in the picture sections as I used to because I think that I have improved to a stage where I only post an image when I know its good or I need some specific ideas as to where I could improve it. I'm not saying I'm brilliant just better than a couple of years ago. This means that I now spend more time in the other non-pictorial sections asking daft questions and looking for better kit, when I should be outside taking bl**dy photos.
As to the crit question, I have only had one or two outright slaggings off of images. I am looking for critique not criticism and I give critique where applicable whilst trying to saying something nice about the image and not just 'doesn't do anything for me'.

Andy

 

[grum]

I'm pretty new here so I can't comment on what it used to be like. I would really like to see people being more critical as long as it was in a friendly constructive way - but there are some people who seem to lack basic manners.

A few 'nice pic' comments doesn't really help anyone improve though I suppose. I do wonder if some people don't feel qualified to be critical - I'm pretty new to photography and it feels a little presumptious for me to be criticising the work of people who've been doing it a lot longer.

Even in my fairly ignorant state though I sometimes see pics posted with what seem to me fairly fundamental flaws, and there's often just 'great capture' comments underneath it. :shrug:

 

[Jaco]

You created one of those "Crit the Crit threads" threads!!!


Can I therefore officially Crit the Crit the Crit Threads Thread? And if anyone feels like they would like to Crit my post, or Crit the Crit Post in the Crit the Crit the Crit Threads Thread, then by all means do so, I can take it!

G.

I think you seriously need to go on holiday Now get your butt of here and get some work done or i`m gonna hide your Camera bag.

 

[EdinburghGary]

I think you seriously need to go on holiday

Congrats on your 800th post! Nice post, cool thread, love it....etc

 

[grum]

As to the crit question, I have only had one or two outright slaggings off of images. I am looking for critique not criticism and I give critique where applicable whilst trying to saying something nice about the image and not just 'doesn't do anything for me'.

Andy

Saying 'doesn't do anything for me' is at least giving you some feedback though - could be more helpful of course but I'd rather receive that than nothing at all.

 

[Andysnap]

Saying 'doesn't do anything for me' is at least giving you some feedback though - could be more helpful of course but I'd rather receive that than nothing at all.

Yeh, suppose so and actually it would make me think about how I could improve it so that it did do something for the person who said it.

A b*gger I think I'm now starting to crit my own posts in a thread about criting the crit and ...... help meeeeeeeeeee

Andy

 

[jamesb84]

I studied Architecture at University...those who get defensive about their photos should really try doing an Architecture degree.

Once you've had a visiting Spanish lecturer stand up in the middle of you "crit" presentation and shout at you "I jus don like it...somethin about it just makes me wan to hurl" and then storm out...they you learn to roll with the punches.

I offer honest criticism as thats what people in the sport section want from me and others...I've not had people get too defensive about it yet. Then again, I wouldn't dream of going into a Wedding thread and offering C&C even if I was the best wedding tog in the business.

 

[~BB~]

So, is photography about the end product for you? is it about taking an image and seeing what you can produce in PP? or is it about collecting the best gear you can? and is that then enough or do you try to get the best out of your shinies?

Utimately the image is the final goal for me, but I am a gadget freak - I admit it - something new and shiny comes out on the market and I can feel my purse tweaking before you can say cheese!! I have however held back recently and tried to restrain myself - not totally successfully but I am getting there - lol!

 

[onomatopoeia]

Critique is meant to be critical. Constructive critique is an additional Forums head this way for a couple of reasons.
1- Someone asks for critique. They get it, full fat, no corners cut. The thread dissolves into a defensive tribunal because the person asking for critique didn't really want it, they just wanted some ooohs and ahhhs. Two results. The person posting doesn't post another critique (Or does so in a 'what do you think, not looking for a hard crit' style) and the person who delivered the honest and most likely useful criticism is alienated and, after the initial bashing, can no longer be bothered to respond to such threads in the future as their insight is so clearly not valued)

People that don't want critique should post in "photos for pleasure." However, criticism in other forums should always be of the constructive kind. It takes no additional effort at all to write a post in a helpful and non-abrasive way but some just come across like playground bullying intended to belittle the person posting the photo. This is never good.

That's all way off the point of the original post. And in any case, as one of those computer geek type people, I should be posting in the equipment forum, not the photography forum .

 

[Big_Ham]

I very rarely post in equipment. Mainly because it makes me want things I can't afford. My exisiting kit works fine at the moment.

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Is equipment a priority? It's certainly amongst the infinite list yes, but generally speaking it can one day be at the top and the next be at the bottom.

The forum has increased in size quite impressively over the last few years, the more members we have the more new faces there are to the art, each having their own questions and trying to familiarise/acclimatise themselves in the ways that they know how.

'What should be using and how should I be using it?', 'I don't have much funds, which should I buy?' Add infinitum.

Most of the time, we're broke, we don't want to fart our money away and look to those with more experience or noggin juice to help us along.

Technology is a very interesting and IMO a widely misunderstood subject. It progresses aggressively and rapidly, each year bringing new capabilities and functionality to the art of photography.

Some are far more interested in the mechanics while others are more interested in the practise. Some are far more interested in the ethics of the capability while others are more interested in the productivity.

Neither is right or wrong. What one may find useless and destructive is the next persons value.

This, IMO, is where the squabbling differences begin.

I take technology and it's manifestations in the photography world as tools. Tools combined with knowledge, experience, technique and their applications are just some of the highly fluid foundations of the art.

Photography is largely an art that requires an acclimatisation to the tech, the more we respect and understand, the more productive our craft can be.

The debates or discussions that condemn the advances of technology I find to be extraneous pontification that has no relevance to art. For example, I particularly despise the suggestion that the advent of digital has ruined photography somehow.

Technology/devices/software will never be capable to entirely replace the human element and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having an insatiable interest in tech/tools either.
One should respect however that if one intends to be satisfied then understanding both the technology and the technique are as important as each other.

The really cool thing about photography for me is that, just like music, drawing, painting, etc - it's for everyone and while it's in the hands of everyone there's always going to be inspiration, influence and ambition, technology/equipment is just a vehicle that helps the whole bundle along.

 

[Grumpy_Git]

<off topic>
I think all crit or image threads should come with voting buttons for the like/dont like ratings and then real comments can be in the thread, that way people still get the ego boost of "nice pic" and they can see easily how many people have left a vote.
/<off topic>

<ON TOPIC>
Ali, you are judging this on a check at 7am?!?!? I'm still in bed at that time on a week day.

For me its about taking pretty pictures and spending days and weeks deleting the poo ones, the reason I love "stuff" is cos I'm a Geeeeeeeeek.

Nick.

 

[grumpybadger]

I've just been using the wonderful search stuff to look at my posting patterns for this year so far. I have made 41 posts in Talk Photography and 120 in Talk Equipment. This compares to AliB's 151 in Talk Equipment and 198 in Talk Photography.

So Alison, proportionally I obviously fit your pattern but you've still posted more than me!

I think the real issue is that Talk Photography is a bit of a strange forum. It's the catch all for things that don't fit elsewhere and there are so many fora that there aren't many options left. For me the critique sections are the ones about photographs as abstract discussions about pictures without sharing them for critique generally don't work. Talk Business is for fights and we now have a lighting section. I think the traffic is so low in Talk Photography as it has become the catch all for next to nothing...

 

[arclight]

Is equipment a priority? It's certainly amongst the infinite list yes, but generally speaking it can one day be at the top and the next be at the bottom.

The forum has increased in size quite impressively over the last few years, the more members we have the more new faces there are to the art, each having their own questions and trying to familiarise/acclimatise themselves in the ways that they know how.

'What should be using and how should I be using it?', 'I don't have much funds, which should I buy?' Add infinitum.

Most of the time, were are broke, we don't want to fart our money away and look to those with more experience or noggin juice to help us along.

Technology is a very interesting and IMO a widely misunderstood subject. It progresses aggressively and rapidly, each year bringing new capabilities and functionality to the art of photography.

Some are far more interested in the mechanics while others are more interested in the practise. Some are far more interested in the ethics of the capability while others are more interested in the productivity.

Neither is right or wrong. What one may find useless and destructive is the next persons value.

This, IMO, is where the squabbling differences begin.

I take technology and it's manifestations in the photography world as tools. Tools combined with knowledge, experience, technique and their applications are just some of the highly fluid foundations of the art.

Photography is largely an art that requires an acclimatisation to the tech, the more we respect and understand, the more productive our craft can be.

The debates or discussions that condemn the advances of technology I find to be extraneous pontification that has no relevance to art. For example, I particularly despise the suggestion that the advent of digital has ruined photography somehow.

Technology/devices/software will never be capable to entirely replace the human element and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having an insatiable interest in tech/tools either.
One should respect however that if one intends to be satisfied then understanding both the technology and the technique are as important as each other.

The really cool thing about photography for me is that, just like music, drawing, painting, etc - it's for everyone and while it's in the hands of everyone there's always going to be inspiration, influence and ambition, technology/equipment is just a vehicle that helps the whole bundle along.

Excellent comment, Thomas. Sums it all up for me.

 

[Nod]

I rarely visit the crit boards. 2 main reasons; 1, I think it's unfair to judge an image on a low res version or a larger one where you have to scroll around to see the whole picture. For me, it's the print that's the end result and I'm not goint to print every image that may deserve a better look - after all, why should my opinion count? I'm not the customer or the photographer! And 2, I don't have the qualifications to judge the pics. OK, I could give my opinion on them but why should MY (let's face it, a random on t'interweb) opinion matter to any of the people posting images for crit?

I spend time in the Talk Photography and Talk Equipment areas because I'm interested in techniques and equipment. I hope my comments in both areas help other members - they're usually intended to!

 

[Nifkin]

So, is photography about the end product for you? is it about taking an image and seeing what you can produce in PP? or is it about collecting the best gear you can? and is that then enough or do you try to get the best out of your shinies?

So where do you stand on this, AliB? I have noticed that you often pop up in the regular Canon vs Nikon debates, which (and with no offence to you), it has to be said, are amongst the most puerile of all threads in the Talk Equipment section?

 

[PsiFox]

I think it has swung towards the equipment because there are more people getting interested in photography and wanting to step up to DSLR. Those that have been here a short while have also seen some of the wonderful photographs that have been posted and want to upgrade there equipment in an effort to produce the same results.

I agree with that but would hope that all those in newly interested people then start posting in the "critique" sections.

And hopefully get more than one person replying to a post in "in depth Critique"

 

[Nick_A]

To answer the original post I spend most of my time in TP and the various pic forums. I’m still an absolute beginner so on a huge learning curve. I’m trying to gain as much knowledge and understanding as possible. For me it’s about getting the absolute best I can from my current kit before even thinking about upgrading I want it all to be a natural progression if that makes sense?

I’ve posted very little so far but I can see myself posting mainly in the pic sharing areas, as someone who is learning needs the most help. I need to know where I’m going wrong and what I’m getting right. It’s the only way I’m going to get better is my showing others my pictures however daunting it may be as mine are rubbish compared to some of the truly stunning photos I’ve seen on here. As I’m new I’m not sure how much of this is down to technique and how much is down to gear.

It can be quite hard to accept criticism when you have spent a lot of time and effort on something to be told it’s crap BUT for me personally I will never get defensive and will always use any criticism to hopefully help me improve.

An example is this couple of pics I posted up

Click here

I really hoped for some good feedback, I know they are a long long way from perfect but I honestly don’t know what I’m doing wrong unless someone points it out. BUT I will also not get stroppy if no one want to give feedback I’ll just keep trying until hopefully I find something that people find interesting enough to comment on

This forum on the whole seems very good and friendly, there is so much information here and photographs and knowledge of some people is inspirational.

I’ll shut up now ha ha

Essay over