Is this forum over moderated?

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StephenM said:
Yep. Whenever "art" appears it's always "Emperor's new clothes" "Load of ......" etc. Plus "everyone's opinion is equally valid"; "it's all a matter of opinion" "I'm not interested in this" etc. etc.

And I'm also fed up with this type of post.
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Speaking as a student on an art degree course I've love to be able to have a decent discussion on art, without it descending in to the usual.

But rather than call for bans, really it's down to us who want a decent discussion to try to keep things on track, try not to react and feed the obvious trolls. Ignore them and they'll get bored and move on. That's not to say we can't have a disagreement of views, it's art, it's subjective, but let's have a reasonable discussion. If you think it's crap, let's discuss why, not just "that's pretentious crap" and leave it at that. we might all learn something.
 
Byker28i said:
Speaking as a student on an art degree course I've love to be able to have a decent discussion on art, without it descending in to the usual.

But rather than call for bans, really it's down to us who want a decent discussion to try to keep things on track, try not to react and feed the obvious trolls. Ignore them and they'll get bored and move on. That's not to say we can't have a disagreement of views, it's art, it's subjective, but let's have a reasonable discussion. If you think it's crap, let's discuss why, not just "that's pretentious crap" and leave it at that. we might all learn something.
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Under most circumstances, I'd agree with you, all opinions deserve to be aired.

However, there's also the question of people being outright arse holes.

It wouldn't occur to you to go into a wedding thread and slag off all wedding photography, or birds, Motorsport etc. Why do seemingly intelligent people think it's OK to be totally dismissive of art? It shouldn't need to be tolerated.
 
The problem is that the "pretentious crap" posters won't discuss it. It just is; it's obvious; it's my opinion and it's as good as yours because it's all subjective.

It's wrestling with smoke.
 
Phil V said:
Under most circumstances, I'd agree with you, all opinions deserve to be aired.

However, there's also the question of people being outright arse holes.

It wouldn't occur to you to go into a wedding thread and slag off all wedding photography, or birds, Motorsport etc. Why do seemingly intelligent people think it's OK to be totally dismissive of art? It shouldn't need to be tolerated.
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The fact that it persistently happens and that the only members that get sanctioned are those that want to discuss art issues when they finally snap under the barrage of dismissive abuse from the arseholes can only lead one to conclude that the opinion of the arseholes is the official forum policy on the matter.
 
Alastair said:
The fact that it persistently happens and that the only members that get sanctioned are those that want to discuss art issues when they finally snap under the barrage of dismissive abuse from the arseholes can only lead one to conclude that the opinion of the arseholes is the official forum policy on the matter.
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I wish I could disagree with you, but it looks that way from what I've seen.
 
Alastair said:
The fact that it persistently happens and that the only members that get sanctioned are those that want to discuss art issues when they finally snap under the barrage of dismissive abuse from the arseholes can only lead one to conclude that the opinion of the arseholes is the official forum policy on the matter.
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That does not follow.
It just implies that the arseholes do not contravene the rules.
 
Alastair said:
The fact that it persistently happens and that the only members that get sanctioned are those that want to discuss art issues when they finally snap under the barrage of dismissive abuse from the arseholes can only lead one to conclude that the opinion of the arseholes is the official forum policy on the matter.
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some have the happy knack of tiptoeing the line, some are very good at it. we have a list.
 
Well since joining a few years back I think the mods are cool, never had an issue with any of them. so not over moderated for me.
 
Matt said:
some have the happy knack of tiptoeing the line, some are very good at it. we have a list.
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Does the staff room estimate their list to be longer or shorter than the potential list of those deterred from participating/joining the discussions by the persistent comments of those on the list?
 
DerekL said:
I only ask as once again another thread has been closed by what seems to me one of the many over officious moderators on here.
Again one person is singled out and threatened with a ban because he defends himself. Time and again decent (if not contentious aka interesting) threads get closed.

This is by far the most sensitive forum I am a member of (probably for not much longer after this).

Am I wrong or do other agree? Do not insult me though as we know what happens.
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I've not been on here much over the last few weeks and have not seen the thread in question. Care to explain briefly what happened?
 
A notification was given of a potentially interesting two day event. As it was on the "artistic" side of photography, the thread contained a couple of "utter rubbish" type posts, which lead to a robust exchange of views ;). As the event was actually fully booked by this time, and as the thread was running wild, the thread starter asked for it to be locked. Which it was. Nothing to do with an overzealous moderator.
 
StephenM said:
The problem is that the "pretentious crap" posters won't discuss it. .
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As one of those more cynical about 'pretentious crap masquerading as art' (though i wasn't involved with the thread in question in the OP) i'd note that i'd be delighted to discuss the concept if intelligent discussion was possible - that kind of discussion could be interesting and dare i say it even educational on both sides, However too often the pro art position boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong because i'm an expert and you're not", which doesn't exactly engender creative discussion and the free interchange of ideas, and tends to lead to the downward spiral into personal remarks from both sides and eventual thread lockage

The other thing that hinders the discussion is the over defensiveness of some posters who don't seem to comprehend the difference between saying that 'some supposed modern art is pretentious crap' , and saying that 'all modern art is pretentious crap' - I'd adhere to the former, but the latter is an indefensible sweeping generalisation
 
I've generally kept out of these discussions because I felt (and still feel) that there's little point since they will inevitably be closed down. There are a number of points that have been raised on the "pro" side that have made me think "yes, but what about..." or "but surely that would mean that..." which I've never followed up for that reason.

I'm fully in agreement with you about some "supposed modern art" but I'm also aware that there are very likely to be factors of which I am not aware that could change my position. If it were a subject with easy answers, there wouldn't be so much discussion/dissention over it. What I have found is that the more I've studied it, the more I've come to appreciate it. Not, in many cases, like it - but that's a different matter altogether.
 
I think I'm well off topic now, and had better withdraw from what could have been an interesting discussion :(
 
StephenM said:
.
. What I have found is that the more I've studied it, the more I've come to appreciate it. Not, in many cases, like it - but that's a different matter altogether.
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Indeed - on one of those discussions (before it went south) David posted those house pictures (the ones with the fires) and the explanation of what, why etc was really interesting ... , fair to say that ive learnt a lot from those debates.. it is a great shame that they now seem to follow a well trodden downward route to the point where they are barely worth having.

(and yes ditto - may be we should move to a new thread "art - the civil discussion" )
 
I wasn't aware this was a meme thread...

mZPZUMA.jpg


Pookeyhead said:
(stuff) in the north west, an area that (with the exception of Manchester) is often considered... perhaps correctly, as a bit of a creative vacuum.
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This needs dealing with. Do I need to RTM or are there enough mods already reading this thread?
 
151694.jpg
 
I'm beginning to feel a bit guilty starting this thread. In my defence I only asked a simple (closed?) question. It does now seem to have gone somewhat of track but i suppose that the nature of posts like this.

Still 8 pages a personal record.:):)
 
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Alastair said:
The fact that it persistently happens and that the only members that get sanctioned are those that want to discuss art issues when they finally snap under the barrage of dismissive abuse from the arseholes can only lead one to conclude that the opinion of the arseholes is the official forum policy on the matter.
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I can definitely assure you that there's no "official forum policy" on that kind of behaviour - and I find it deeply upsetting that this side of photography appears to be something that certain members cannot engage in rational debate upon without simply resorting to "name calling" or a variation on the old business meeting "Bulsh!t Bingo"...

;) Maybe I SHOULD draft a notice for the Staff Room as to where persons may be thread-banned (which IS actually a fairly recent add-on to the moderation toolkit for us, and many of us kind of forget we've got access to it) from these arts debates... Key "trigger phrases" could include...

"Emperors New Clothes"
"Pile of Bricks"
"My 2 year old daughter could do better than that"
 
big soft moose said:
As one of those more cynical about 'pretentious crap masquerading as art' (though i wasn't involved with the thread in question in the OP) i'd note that i'd be delighted to discuss the concept if intelligent discussion was possible - that kind of discussion could be interesting and dare i say it even educational on both sides, However too often the pro art position boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong because i'm an expert and you're not", which doesn't exactly engender creative discussion and the free interchange of ideas, and tends to lead to the downward spiral into personal remarks from both sides and eventual thread lockage
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I didn't say it was all one sided, there's strong views on both sides and at times very blunt views, However, if we ignore the deliberate argimentative then we might have a chance of more understanding. There's a whole field of photography beyond just pretty images.
 
big soft moose said:
there's always the meggameet - as far as i know that as never degenerated into a fight in the carpark afterwards, although certain members have been known to get so p***ed they can't stand up
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Ah, sorry..... :coat:
 
TheBigYin said:
Maybe I SHOULD draft a notice for the Staff Room as to where persons may be thread-banned (which IS actually a fairly recent add-on to the moderation toolkit for us, and many of us kind of forget we've got access to it) from these arts debates...
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That could be a useful tool for dealing with the tools...

Out of interest, are the staff to able to identify who the "most ignored" members are? - just something I started to wonder about last night when I noticed that a couple of prominent photo commentators are no longer getting responses to their comments, and I have no problem in understanding why...
 
I don't like it out here daddy, can I go back to F&C now... Roberts has finished cleaning the library and its time for my Scottish medicine. :beer:
 
Alastair said:
Out of interest, are the staff to able to identify who the "most ignored" members are? - just something I started to wonder about last night when I noticed that a couple of prominent photo commentators are no longer getting responses to their comments, and I have no problem in understanding why...
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Staff - No - or at least I'm not aware of a way. As the whole forum is effectively a large database, I suppose at an admin level it would be possible to find out, if indeed someone at Xen (or in the Admins/Owners community) hasn't already coded something... But personally, I really don't worry too much about "who's not talking to who", or "who's mortal enemies with who" unless it spills out into the greater community and begins to be a problem - and by then, it's either been seen by one of my fellow mods/myself OR it's been RTM'ed for our attention.

But i'd bet I could probably name the top 5 on the list, if it were ever published ;)
 
TheBigYin said:
But i'd bet I could probably name the top 5 on the list, if it were ever published ;)
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You're not allowed to include perma-banned members in your mental list, that would be too easy :D :D :D
 
I dont think its over moderated but i do think its very unevenly moderated. You can see in the thread regarding the UCLA talk that was locked how some people were getting away with blue murder while others were simply reacting to the crap coming their way and ending up getting singled out by the mods.
 
AshleyC said:
I dont think its over moderated but i do think its very unevenly moderated. You can see in the thread regarding the UCLA talk that was locked how some people were getting away with blue murder while others were simply reacting to the crap coming their way and ending up getting singled out by the mods.
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in defence of the mods you can only see whats left - you can't see anything they deleted and nor can you see member edits - or anything that went on behind the scenes - nor are you necessarily aware of past history/record in other such threads
 
TheBigYin said:
I can definitely assure you that there's no "official forum policy" on that kind of behaviour - and I find it deeply upsetting that this side of photography appears to be something that certain members cannot engage in rational debate upon without simply resorting to "name calling" or a variation on the old business meeting "Bulsh!t Bingo"...

;) Maybe I SHOULD draft a notice for the Staff Room as to where persons may be thread-banned (which IS actually a fairly recent add-on to the moderation toolkit for us, and many of us kind of forget we've got access to it) from these arts debates... Key "trigger phrases" could include...

"Emperors New Clothes"
"Pile of Bricks"
"My 2 year old daughter could do better than that"
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fine by me but you also need to include

"peter lik"
"pretty pictures"
and "just don't get it"

As I said personally i'd love to have a calm and rational debate about this stuff as i sense that i'd learn a lot even from those with whom I don't necessarily agree - however i also sense that this would probably need to be over a beer or 6 in person,as on the internet stripped of body language David and I tend to bring out the worst in each other (and i'm not blind to my part in that)
 
big soft moose said:
i sense that i'd learn a lot even from those with whom I don't necessarily agree
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I think that applies to all of us, and across a whole lot of subjects.

To often though critique/comments (about photos, about art, in threads in general etc) are made from the point of view of "I wouldn't do it like that" and we miss the opportunity to really think about a different way of doing things and the alternative point of view.
 
big soft moose said:
fine by me but you also need to include

"peter lik"
"pretty pictures"
and "just don't get it"

As I said personally i'd love to have a calm and rational debate about this stuff as i sense that i'd learn a lot even from those with whom I don't necessarily agree - however i also sense that this would probably need to be over a beer or 6 in person,as on the internet stripped of body language David and I tend to bring out the worst in each other (and i'm not blind to my part in that)
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Peter Lik had several galleries in Las Vegas. The images there kinda made sense, in the big neon expansive world, they didn't look over the top
 
Byker28i said:
Peter Lik had several galleries in Las Vegas. The images there kinda made sense, in the big neon expansive world, they didn't look over the top
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I thinking more in the sense that his name/antelope canyon is commonly cited as not being art' as a counterpoint to gurzky/rhien2 who made a similar amount of cash for a picture that some say is more worthy and others less visually attractive... that whole discussion usually heads south faster than a migrating goose
 
AshleyC said:
I dont think its over moderated but i do think its very unevenly moderated.
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On the Staff, there are 9 moderators and 3 Admins. It's HIGHLY unlikely that all 12 of these people will have exactly the same attitude to everything said in any dispute - the Moderators were generally chosen because they'd shown good calm and rational decision making before they were co-opted (though how Cobra and I managed to slip through that net is something of a worry). So, generally, if something like the thread you mentioned is rapidly going to hell in a handbag, it falls on whoever is "on duty" to make decisions as to what is appropriate action. It IS fair to say we have staff that are more inclined towards the artistic approach to photography and others who are more on the "it's a craft/skill" side of things... we're human, we have different opinions - and if we know that there's likely to be a difference of opinions, we'll do our debating on that subject in the staff room rather than simply going in "guns blazing". This sometimes takes too long however, and by this time the thread has run amok and all we can do is firefighting and closing off access to prevent further chaos.

I may not always agree with my fellow moderators opinions - and they may well not agree with mine in some circumstances. But I DO honestly believe one thing - that every single one of us acts with what we consider the best interests of this forum at the core of every action we make.
 
TheBigYin said:
I may not always agree with my fellow moderators opinions - and they may well not agree with mine in some circumstances. But I DO honestly believe one thing - that every single one of us acts with what we consider the best interests of this forum at the core of every action we make.
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Thank you :ty:
 
AshleyC said:
I dont think its over moderated but i do think its very unevenly moderated. You can see in the thread regarding the UCLA talk that was locked how some people were getting away with blue murder while others were simply reacting to the crap coming their way and ending up getting singled out by the mods.
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I didn't realise members were also able to see warning points given? How do you know that people were getting away with things? You don't. I was not singling anyone out at all. But feel free to keep making assumptions.
 
kelack said:
I didn't realise members were also able to see warning points given?
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"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done"
R v Sussex Justices, ex p McCarthy

I think we all appreciate the work that goes on behind the scenes to keep things on an even keel (well, at least I do), but the general membership doesn't see the hidden notes in the staff room black book and can only form it's impression of what happens based upon those times that the activities of the staff room spill out and into the public domain. This will mean that impression may be left on some occasions that "some people were getting away with blue murder".

Are those that are in receipt of warning points aware of them?
 
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