Is the VW group going bust?

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Not withstanding that some of the very earliest of motor driven vehicles were battery not ICE !

If the rechargeable battery (chemistry) development had been funded and progressed in parallel with fossil fuels from its infancy..........I wonder which would have 'won out' ???
 
Pound Coin said:
When I was growing up, cars didn't last 10 years.

Car are a method of transport.

It's us that have been hoodwinked by the marketing departments of car manufacturers, and by the money of the fossil fuel industry into thinking that they are some kind of magical device that will enhance our lives and make us happy.
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Here speaketh the middle class.

Genuine question have you ever owned a really great car? A car that excites you every time you get behind the wheel?

For a lot of people there is a lot more to owning a car than getting from A to B.

The loss of companies like V.W, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche, Honda, etc. will disappoint a lot of people. Not everyone wants to drive a rectangular box called an SUV powered by some vape batteries.
 
f/2.8 said:
Genuine question have you ever owned a really great car? A car that excites you every time you get behind the wheel?
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Yes.

Next...
 
Pound Coin said:
Yes.

Next...
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Completely contradicted yourself there. Very odd.

In regards to you only seeing a vehicle as a way of getting from point A to point B. Why do you want to take away that option for normal people? Your average Joe is not going to be able to afford to replace a battery on a 10-15 year E.V which is all he can afford. Why do you want to take away his ability to take his kids to school, get to work in the mornings, get to the hospital etc. without having to rely on public transport?

Do you just not care? Or is it because you are so wrapped up in your own E.V agenda you just didn't think about anyone else?

The loss of real car manufacturers like V.W, Ford, Honda etc. will also bring with it large amounts of unemployment. What about all of the mechanics? What about all of the people that work in petrol stations? The people that work on oil rigs? Do you just not care that these people are all going to lose their jobs and the huge impact that is going to have on the U.K economy? Is it just a case of as long as I am all right Jack?

How do you feel about your E.V agenda helping the Chinese government to dominate the world's economy and impacting on every free person's lives?

Are you not in the slightest bit concerned that every day that goes by it looks more likely there will be a war with China. The Chinese government have the ability to remotely log in and control all of the E.V's they produce and potentially turn them into a weapon. Are you not concerned that you will be heading out to M&S one day and that someone on the other side of the world can flick a switch and turn your E.V into a fireball?

How do you feel about the huge environmental issues caused by E.V production, usage and disposal?
 
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And ICE cars are soooo clean in production and use...
 
Nod said:
And ICE cars are soooo clean in production and use...
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It is very debatable which is worse. E.V’s are nuclear powered have huge wastage etc. The list of environmental issues with E.V’s is a mile long.

If it was just a case of environmental issues the government and the Chinese would not be pushing E.V’s, they would be looking at alternative fuels.

E.V’s are here because China wants them and they have the money to buy governments.
 
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f/2.8 said:
Completely contradicted yourself there. Very odd.
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I realised that the world isn't just about me.

Cars are methods of transport.
 
f/2.8 said:
E.V’s are here because China wants them and they have the money to buy governments.
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Maybe that Tesla man too...?
 
Anyway. Back to VW....
 
f/2.8 said:
Your average Joe is not going to be able to afford to replace a battery on a 10-15 year E.V which is all he can afford.
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Again, batteries are designed to outlast the vehicle. There is no evidence that EV battery will need replacing on a 15 years old EV.

f/2.8 said:
How do you feel about the huge environmental issues caused by E.V production, usage and disposal?
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The important factor is the amount of time vehicle is in use, for car it can be 15+ years.
1736516664220.png
circularecology.com

Defra 2023 Emissions Factors Released - Circular Ecology

Defra release the 2023 conversion factors for carbon emissions.
circularecology.com circularecology.com

Over the years, EV will become cleaner and cleaner as the grid de-carbonises.
EV can also be charged exclusively via own on-site renewable generation.

On disposal, as I pointed out in earlier post, undamaged EV battery will be re-used for other application.
 
Cockney said:
Not to mention children mining cobalt.
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Sure as long as the middle class can get to Waitrose in their vape battery powered machines nobody cares about kids being treated as slaves.
 
f/2.8 said:
Sure as long as the middle class can get to Waitrose in their vape battery powered machines nobody cares about kids being treated as slaves.
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It does seem odd how some peoples woke credentials are selective.
 
Cockney said:
It does seem odd how some peoples woke credentials are selective.
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That’s the way of the world.

Look at me I am environmentally conscious because I drive an E.V without having and understanding or caring about any of the consequences.
 
I drive a Diesel and a few petrol vehicles as well as Mrs Nod's EV. Rarely take the ICE vehicles into the city centre.
 
I thought a lot of manufacturers had given up on developing EVs, aren't Toyota exclusively working on hydrogen power?
 
When they put out the numbers of EVs sold, does that number include hybrids?
 
Cockney said:
I thought a lot of manufacturers had given up on developing EVs, aren't Toyota exclusively working on hydrogen power?
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I'm sure I read last year that they teamed up with BMW with regard to working towards Hydrogen cars. Imagine that, BMW performance with Toyota reliability - they will practically sell themselves! lol
 
Cockney said:
When they put out the numbers of EVs sold, does that number include hybrids?
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For UK's ZEV mandate, yes hybrids do earn some credit.
For sales figure, BEV does not include hybrids. EV does normally include hybrid.

Cockney said:
Not to mention children mining cobalt.
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There are many vehicle batteries no longer use cobalt. Notably those using LFP chemistry.

Cobalt have many other uses, it is also used in oil refinery as a catalyst.


On topic, VW says they think LFP battery supply is "secure":
Volkswagen said it likes lithium phosphate (LFP) batteries because they contain no cobalt or nickel and "supply is secure."
"LFP is robust over many charging cycles at lower cost," Volkswagen said. "We see potential to use LFP for up to 30% of our battery electric vehicle portfolio."
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gman said:
I'm sure I read last year that they teamed up with BMW with regard to working towards Hydrogen cars. Imagine that, BMW performance with Toyota reliability - they will practically sell themselves! lol
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They already share a lot of stuff. New Supra is just a BMW in different clothes.
 
The equivalent figures for 2025 will likely be heavily skewed by the recent rises in new VED rates, but I wonder if there are equivalent market share figures for used vehicles? That might tell a tale too. I have a suspicion that diesel used prices may be increasing, and petrol too maybe but at a slower rate. With typical diesel engines running easily to 250k to 400k miles (in my personal first hand experience), I suspect the market for used diesels will be strong, even for vans for tradies.
 
lindsay said:
The equivalent figures for 2025 will likely be heavily skewed by the recent rises in new VED rates, but I wonder if there are equivalent market share figures for used vehicles? That might tell a tale too. I have a suspicion that diesel used prices may be increasing, and petrol too maybe but at a slower rate. With typical diesel engines running easily to 250k to 400k miles (in my personal first hand experience), I suspect the market for used diesels will be strong, even for vans for tradies.
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One of my golf pals had a Toyota Rav hybrid on contract, last month that contract finished, they wanted so much for another hybrid that he went to diesel.
 
lindsay said:
The equivalent figures for 2025 will likely be heavily skewed by the recent rises in new VED rates, but I wonder if there are equivalent market share figures for used vehicles? That might tell a tale too. I have a suspicion that diesel used prices may be increasing, and petrol too maybe but at a slower rate. With typical diesel engines running easily to 250k to 400k miles (in my personal first hand experience), I suspect the market for used diesels will be strong, even for vans for tradies.
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Also it is highly likely that the reduction in incentives will reduce EV sales whilst there is a good chance that the restrictions on numbers of ICE cars will be lifted. Otherwise the whole market will stagnate.

My opinion, stated on here earlier is that second hand prices will dictate the future of EV vehicles. If dealers can't move the EV p/x vehicles on, there will be a domino effect on the sale of new EVs.
 
gman said:
Presumably, just like the argument for the EV infrastructure, the same could be applied to the hydrogen infrastructure?
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Not really if hydrogen was rolled out in a meaningful way. Every petrol station in the country could install a pump for it at much lower cost than having facilities for E.V’s.

It could also be done reasonably quickly as well.

It won’t happen though as the government have no interest in supporting hydrogen over taking the Chinese yen. Even though it would seem to be the best option.
 
f/2.8 said:
Not really if hydrogen was rolled out in a meaningful way. Every petrol station in the country could install a pump for it at much lower cost than having facilities for E.V’s.
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While petrol stations certainly could install pumps, it's not like storing petrol, being far more dangerous and requiring specialised holding tanks. A problem with hydrogen is that because the molecule is so small it can pass through even metal tank walls. As well as the losses, if the tanks are stored in an enclosed space then gas can build up inside leading to an explosion hazard.

So it wont be cheap to install.

Personally I like the idea of hydrogen cars, but it's not an easy tech.
 
ancient_mariner said:
While petrol stations certainly could install pumps, it's not like storing petrol, being far more dangerous and requiring specialised holding tanks. A problem with hydrogen is that because the molecule is so small it can pass through even metal tank walls. As well as the losses, if the tanks are stored in an enclosed space then gas can build up inside leading to an explosion hazard.

So it wont be cheap to install.

Personally I like the idea of hydrogen cars, but it's not an easy tech.
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one of the top things that come out of EV owners groups is how much they don't miss petrol stations
grubby places, queues in bad weather etc , they love the come home plug in go indoors for food and TV and

come out in the AM to a full tank every time
 
Mr Bump said:
one of the top things that come out of EV owners groups is how much they don't miss petrol stations
grubby places, queues in bad weather etc , they love the come home plug in go indoors for food and TV and

come out in the AM to a full tank every time
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That has got to be a joke. Pull up, fill up and gone in a few minutes. When we go down to Spain, around 440 miles, we can go all the way on a tankfull and stop at a lovely picnic spot or restaurant for lunch. No having to wait around a supermarket charging station for a download of electricity at ten times the price of home overnight charging. 440 miles in judt over six and a half hours including lunch.
 
Mr Bump said:
one of the top things that come out of EV owners groups is how much they don't miss petrol stations
grubby places, queues in bad weather etc , they love the come home plug in go indoors for food and TV and

come out in the AM to a full tank every time
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And how does that work for the majority of people, the ones who don't have off-road parking?
Mr Bump said:
December car Sales

Massive for BEV
Diesel is dead
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Excellent, the law of supply and demand dictates that diesel prices will carry on falling and my VW will cost even less to run:)
 
Solutions is being worked on to allow people who don't have off-street parking to charge:
www.gov.uk

Cross-pavement solutions for charging electric vehicles

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
(no comment on effectiveness of that one)

I personally find EV a lot easier to live with than liquid fuel. I have 60 miles commute, with liquid fuel and previous diesel max range of 550-600 miles on a good day, nothing is routine, I fuel up every other week and on different days.
Key is making plug in a habit and a routine: park on the driveway and plug in, simple and quick. Much like plugging phone in every evening.

I've driven over 1500 miles road trips in an EV, alongside friend's Merc diesel. Driving EV not only did not hold up the journey, there were zero waiting for charging, it was actually less hassle than the diesel. We rest and plug in, also trickle charged at the AirBnB. But in a few instances got to wait for the diesel to refuel.


Everyone got to stop thinking "refuel at petrol station". It's all about grazing, charge up a little here and there. A car is parked over 95% of its life, we can make more use out of it.
 
wyx087 said:
Much like plugging phone in every evening.
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Still? I thought we'd finally got away from that with 5000mAh batteries - generally get 2-3 days with 5G on and 3-5 days 5G off.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Still? I thought we'd finally got away from that with 5000mAh batteries - generally get 2-3 days with 5G on and 3-5 days 5G off.
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I charge my phone every night even though it might be 70% still
you never know what the next day will bring is my thoughts
 
ancient_mariner said:
Still? I thought we'd finally got away from that with 5000mAh batteries - generally get 2-3 days with 5G on and 3-5 days 5G off.
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Wireless phone charging, just pop it down on the charger and pick it up again in the morning.

It's a good point though and applies to EVs as well, with range increasing and average private use low there's less need to plug in as often. If your car will do 370 miles and the average private daily use is 9 miles you could technically plug in just once a month.
 
The key is that we are where we are.

Some time ago, cars didn't last 10 years, broke down regularly, didn't do 500 miles for a tank. Some time before that, it was horses, and before that, walking.

So it is fair to plan for a time when cars don't go to filling stations and get between 300 and 500 miles of fuel.

It's change.
 
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