Is the VW group going bust?

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If an electric vehicle on fire while you’re driving it will explode and you will die. Much less likely with a real car.
Explode is rather over the top and I think thermal runaway is more the correct word.

The few cases seen so far is the car will detect something is wrong and shut off before the unlikely fire gets out of battery pack, giving plenty of time to stop and get out. Only in extreme rare cases where vehicle was mis-used (eg, speeding or driving too fast for the condition), crash would damage the battery pack in such a way that allows thermal runaway to consume vehicle quickly.

Constant use of the term "real car" shows there is ulterior motive, "axe to grind".



For balance, be careful when filling up your "real car" with explosive fuel next time: o_O
 
Explode is rather over the top and I think thermal runaway is more the correct word.

The few cases seen so far is the car will detect something is wrong and shut off before the unlikely fire gets out of battery pack, giving plenty of time to stop and get out. Only in extreme rare cases where vehicle was mis-used (eg, speeding or driving too fast for the condition), crash would damage the battery pack in such a way that allows thermal runaway to consume vehicle quickly.

Constant use of the term "real car" shows there is ulterior motive, "axe to grind".



For balance, be careful when filling up your "real car" with explosive fuel next time: o_O

How many links do you need. :ROFLMAO:

 
How many links do you need. :ROFLMAO:

Last time I checked, that is a fire, it did not "explode".
Fires like that is equally likely to happen to any fuel type, it just doesn't get as much media exposure.

May I remind you the previous big fire, Luton airport fire, was due to a diesel car. The fire was mostly propagated by burning liquid fuel.

Inside the report it references Norway Stavanger fire investigation:
Observations made by the RBR regarding the intensity and duration of car fires during the incident indicate that electric car batteries were not involved in the fire. If the battery is not involved, the course of fire in an electric vehicle is expected to be approximately the same as in a conventional petrol or diesel vehicle.
When it comes to the fire’s environmental impact, analyses of water samples in nearby water bodies provide indications on the contribution of electric vehicle batteries (analyses carried out by COWI,). The analyses included lithium and cobalt, main components of an electric car battery. Lithium was not found in any of the water samples, and the analyses showed low concentrations of cobalt. This indicates that batteries from burnt out electric vehicles have not contributed to the pollution of nearby water bodies.
Similarly, the fire investigation report for Luton airport identifies running fuel fires and an approximately 10 mph wind along with the design of the car park with narrow gaps between the parked cars as being the factors contributing to the spread of the fire

How common are these fires?​

Australian firm EV FireSafe tracks passenger electric vehicle battery fires worldwide. From 2010 to June 2023, its database records only 393 verified fires globally, out of some 30 million electric vehicles on the road.

Australia recorded only four electric vehicle battery fires over the same period. One was linked to arson. The other three vehicles were parked in structures that burned down and destroyed the vehicles. So it appears these fires didn’t start in the batteries.
 
Tommy, the real car comment couldn't be anymore true. Yous can say whatever you want but electric cars are utterly ghastly looking, boxy and hideous looking things.

Boring isn't the word for them.
 
Tommy, the real car comment couldn't be anymore true. Yous can say whatever you want but electric cars are utterly ghastly looking, boxy and hideous looking things.

Boring isn't the word for them.
Yeah they aren’t a car they are an electric vehicle.

Tbf I did own one at one point. I was around 4 or 5 years old at the time. And it it had Police livery on it. Battery was good for about 20 minutes or so. After about a year the battery started to only last around 10 minutes and eventually it died. It went on the bonfire that July.

It was similar to this one.

IMG_1349.jpeg
 
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Tommy thats being generous to electric cars, that one actually looks better than most of them lol.
 
When you can't construct a cohesive argument to back up your statements......
Don't worry, they are just playing.
 
A thing aesthetically looking good or bad is an opinion by definition, cannot be a fact.

Oh we are dealing with a grammar nazi now lol. Just you keep driving your s*** EV toys lol
 
No, I was correcting your spelling and logic.

Neither of which count as grammar.

Nothing worse than someone who feels the need to correct other people’s spelling on the internet.

They often tend to be E.V drivers. It’s not an attractive trait.


IMG_1350.jpeg
 
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Nothing worse than someone who feels the need to correct other people’s spelling on the internet.

They often tend to be E.V drivers.



It's OK, I can take it lol

Wonder what turd of an EV he owns lol
 
Lol reminds me of this

1000009406.png
 
:D

1000011425.jpg
 
I have bikes for the blue slice! High 60s to the gallon too, even when ridden noisily.

I had to twist to make my bikes noisy :p
 
Like we did last summer...
 
Just to emphasise the post from Toni, @ancient_mariner , there are 2 or 3 posters in this thread that are dangerously close to a temporary ban. Be warned, we are watching and are getting a bit cheesed off with people who cannot have a civilised discussion and disagreement.
 
No the materials get separated and then crushed to recover the metal and lithium. There is a huge amount of wastage.

Repurposing them would be a good solution but rarely happens due to safety concerns.

There is a lot of wastage with electric cars in general.

Just one example my cousin had an MG4 in the other week, was pretty much a brand new car with under 3k miles that had been in a minor accident, literally a very minor bump on the bumper. However due to concerns about battery safety the insurance company wrote the car of and the car was salvaged and scrapped. This happens a lot he has had Tesla’s with less than 1k miles.

Another example a couple of months back there was a flood and he got in 12 x Citroen Dispatches from a fleet all written off by the insurer for battery safety concerns. There was no obvious water damage to any of them and they all worked perfectly. All were very new vehicles.

E.V’s are great for my cousin since he switched to only E.V’s his business has more than quadrupled in size.

The vast majority of E.V’s he gets in would not have been scrapped if they were a real car.

Even though his business is E.V’s he would never own or drive one.
That's weird, my company car MG5 was hit by an artic, front end smashed and repaired quite easily. A colleague was rear ended in his MG4, badly smashed up and it's in the bodybuilders as we speak. EV's are no different to ice cars when it comes to accident damage and repairs.
 
Inappropriate behaviour - giving lip after a warning
Just to emphasise the post from Toni, @ancient_mariner , there are 2 or 3 posters in this thread that are dangerously close to a temporary ban. Be warned, we are watching and are getting a bit cheesed off with people who cannot have a civilised discussion and disagreement.

Do you by chance own an EV Lindsay LOL
 
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Tommy, the real car comment couldn't be anymore true. Yous can say whatever you want but electric cars are utterly ghastly looking, boxy and hideous looking things.

Boring isn't the word for them.
That's your personal opinion of how they look. doesn't mean others agree.
 
From Garry Edwards, moderator . . . Stop the insults, stop winding each other up deliberately and stop turning this into just another EV - ICE thread. That subject seems to attract strong views and if mods and admins find themselves wasting too much time because of bad behaviour they will react!

From Garry Edwards, member . . . All businesses have a life cycle, none last for ever, those who see the writing on the wall, adapt and change, last longer but everything changes over time. Companies that change slowly, have too high operating costs, don't constantly fight hard to stay one step ahead of their competitors etc always fail sooner. And this is what this thread is about, not the technology that makes the wheels go round.
 
That's weird, my company car MG5 was hit by an artic, front end smashed and repaired quite easily. A colleague was rear ended in his MG4, badly smashed up and it's in the bodybuilders as we speak. EV's are no different to ice cars when it comes to accident damage and repairs.
My cousins business went from turning over 500k and employing 2 people to turning over 12 million and employing 16 people when he switched to E.V only salvage and recycling so we will just have to disagree there.
 
Do you by chance own an EV Lindsay LOL
Sometimes a joke, that was not funny in the first place, just gets dragged on for too long. You may be laughing out loud, I just think it's a bit pathetic. And FYI I have two diesel vehicles, but my sense of humour is taking a knocking from the amount of noise I get in my Inbox from childish behaviour in the non-photography forums.Thanks @Garry Edwards for issuing the warning, I was in danger of over-reacting.
Is there anything left to say about VWAudi Group's finances and business? If not, ...
 
Regarding the repair / recycle aspect of EV's - I watched a pretty eye-opening video on ed china's youtube channel, where he went through iirc the Bosch certification training to work on EV battery packs etc. I think that the current situation is pretty much if you are (like fleet buyers for example) buying/leasing through a main dealer, getting main dealer service work and repairs, then it's likely that for the duratiion of the lease, you're very likely to be able to have the car reworked with replacement batteries etc - the old ones then being able to be opened, split and re-conditioned/refurbed. But, as the current incarnation of EV's and their power cells are (relative to ICE technology) a relativel immature technology - there simply isn't the same network of non-dealer chain garages that are a) prepared to invest in the technology required to work on ev's and b) prepared to re-skill where needed to do so. This creates a bit of a void in the market - for people like me for example - I drive a old petrol Audi - had it from new in 2000... it did 3 years as a leased vehicle as my company car, and when I left the company, I asked if the company would buy out the lease, and sell to me at cost... So, it was dealer serviced for 3 years and 78k miles - since then it's never seen the inside of a main dealers. I'm lucky to live near to a VERY VERY good VAG Group Specialist independent - pretty much everyone that works there was trained at VAG dealers - they have the same diagnostics, same specialist tools, and approximately 1/3 the labour rate per hour - plus they don't "garden" the job and charge for stuff it doesn't need - they understand that a return customer is worth far more than a quick extra £200 one-off... I've chatted with the owner and he's scratching his head at the moment - for now they're not going the EV train/certify route - mainly because they'd very likely need to move premises or build a second garage to keep the petrol/derv and EV stuff safely isolated due to the nature of their current building.

My point of that ramble is that if established well-respected marque-specialist independents aren't moving into EV work yet, then there's NO WAY that the smaller "general garage" that is the lifeblood of the 10 year old ICE vehicle is going to at the moment.

So it's either going to have to be dealer service or new independents coming up as a new business, just to work on pulling, refurbing and re-fitting batteries - without that kind of support, yes, there's an awful lot more EV's that are going to go into breakers and recyclers IMO.

TL-DR - EV's still a relatively immature product, and don't have the infrastructure (yet) to cope with older vehicles when they, as all vehicles invariably do, go wrong.
 
Sometimes a joke, that was not funny in the first place, just gets dragged on for too long. You may be laughing out loud, I just think it's a bit pathetic. And FYI I have two diesel vehicles, but my sense of humour is taking a knocking from the amount of noise I get in my Inbox from childish behaviour in the non-photography forums.Thanks @Garry Edwards for issuing the warning, I was in danger of over-reacting.
Is there anything left to say about VWAudi Group's finances and business? If not, ...

Pathetic for me to genuinely think EV cars look god awful? Some bits here and there are a joke with a jag but my opinion is that they look hideous for the most part and alot of what car enthusiasts love is lost with EVs.

It's OK for you mods to get your knickers in a twist and not be able to take any form of humour, I get it.

Labelling a joke as "giving lip after a warning" then modding the comment to say what's it got to do with you, taking it all personal is actually ridiculous lol.
 
Regarding the repair / recycle aspect of EV's - I watched a pretty eye-opening video on ed china's youtube channel, where he went through iirc the Bosch certification training to work on EV battery packs etc. I think that the current situation is pretty much if you are (like fleet buyers for example) buying/leasing through a main dealer, getting main dealer service work and repairs, then it's likely that for the duratiion of the lease, you're very likely to be able to have the car reworked with replacement batteries etc - the old ones then being able to be opened, split and re-conditioned/refurbed. But, as the current incarnation of EV's and their power cells are (relative to ICE technology) a relativel immature technology - there simply isn't the same network of non-dealer chain garages that are a) prepared to invest in the technology required to work on ev's and b) prepared to re-skill where needed to do so. This creates a bit of a void in the market - for people like me for example - I drive a old petrol Audi - had it from new in 2000... it did 3 years as a leased vehicle as my company car, and when I left the company, I asked if the company would buy out the lease, and sell to me at cost... So, it was dealer serviced for 3 years and 78k miles - since then it's never seen the inside of a main dealers. I'm lucky to live near to a VERY VERY good VAG Group Specialist independent - pretty much everyone that works there was trained at VAG dealers - they have the same diagnostics, same specialist tools, and approximately 1/3 the labour rate per hour - plus they don't "garden" the job and charge for stuff it doesn't need - they understand that a return customer is worth far more than a quick extra £200 one-off... I've chatted with the owner and he's scratching his head at the moment - for now they're not going the EV train/certify route - mainly because they'd very likely need to move premises or build a second garage to keep the petrol/derv and EV stuff safely isolated due to the nature of their current building.

My point of that ramble is that if established well-respected marque-specialist independents aren't moving into EV work yet, then there's NO WAY that the smaller "general garage" that is the lifeblood of the 10 year old ICE vehicle is going to at the moment.

So it's either going to have to be dealer service or new independents coming up as a new business, just to work on pulling, refurbing and re-fitting batteries - without that kind of support, yes, there's an awful lot more EV's that are going to go into breakers and recyclers IMO.

TL-DR - EV's still a relatively immature product, and don't have the infrastructure (yet) to cope with older vehicles when they, as all vehicles invariably do, go wrong.
That’s the thing a lot of lot of people don’t appreciate because they are in the position to afford a new car every 3 years as they are just leasing or financing.

Growing up my parents never had a car that was newer than 10 years old. I know plenty of people now who are daily driving 10-15 year old and even older cars. While some drive older cars through choice for others even if they wanted an E.V there is no way in the world they could afford one, that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. With the cost of battery replacement being so ridiculously high and unlikely to change anytime soon that will remain the case as well. Nobody is going to buy a 10-15 year old E.V.

I could have an E.V if I wanted one but I don’t see them as being a car just a method of transport. Same as an electric scooter etc.

Those pushing the E.V agenda are also pushing an agenda of privilege that’s why it tends to be middle class people that own (rent) them. Maybe they don’t realise that their agenda is also going to mean that many people won’t have access to their own transport or more likely they just don’t care, sure let them eat cake. They are also playing right into the hands of China and helping them make billions.

I have a reasonably new car that I paid for cash. I would never pay cash for an E.V. Love my current car will likely keep it for many years. It would seem a waste of time to pay cash for an E.V in my opinion.

V.W aren’t the only company that may fall by the wayside the whole VAG group are in massive trouble as are Ford, Vauxhall and a few others. They can not compete with the Chinese E.V companies. An E.V is not a car it’s a method of transport if you are going to buy one a lot of people will go the Chinese route as perceived brand quality doesn’t matter it’s just thousands of vape batteries stuck together and 4 wheels thrown on. Even the big Jap companies like Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi are in big trouble, hence them trying to merge.

Nobody wants an electric powered Golf R or G.T.I, there will never be another fast Ford, Honda civic type R or Vauxhall VXR.

As mentioned by @f/1.4 the vast majority of E.V also look odd. Personal opinion of course but the vast majority really are very ugly looking vehicles. Have you seen the new Ford Capri :ROFLMAO: BMW are one of the few companies making E.V's based on their traditional styles after making some very ugly E.V's and even they can't shift them other than on business leases and Motability schemes. An E.V also mean's being chained to driving an auto which definitely is not for everyone.
 
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The other consideration, both for the private buyer and the secondhand market is the fact its emerging technology. EVs in 3 to 5 tears time will make current ones look like model Ts. Who'd buy obsolete?
 
For EV specific repairs by independent garage, there is a garage organisation for knowledge sharing.

Everything else, non powertrain related, any garage is able to carry out the work as long as they had "don't touch orange cable" training.

My 10+ years old Nissan Leaf had suspension, brake and tyre work done by a number of different garages, depending on their price and which location was convenient to me.

£0 spent on the powertrain over the 7+ years ownership, no service required.

Last point is perhaps why many dealerships are not training up enough EV specialists. They are only required for serious diagnostic on stuff that rarely go wrong. Bulk of their work and revenue are still regular ICE servicing.
 
When I was growing up, cars didn't last 10 years.

Car are a method of transport.

It's us that have been hoodwinked by the marketing departments of car manufacturers, and by the money of the fossil fuel industry into thinking that they are some kind of magical device that will enhance our lives and make us happy.
 
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