Is 'street photography' exploitative?

"I" is a bit strong David, there are a number of individuals pontificating on what is right and wrong in the thread.

I can only speak for myself Gramps... not other people. If they want to comment, they can.. hence "I".


No one physically twists anothers arm in situations like this but the constant harping on how others' photos do not 'qualify' does it by inference.

You keep putting words in quotation marks Gramps... that infers I used those words. I don't recall using that word either... I'm prepared to be wrong here, as I'm not going to rifle back through everything I've written, but you do have a habit of putting words I've never used in quotes... bad form old chap.


Take for example what you included in your crit of Dan's 'man on a train' ... you say, "as people have very different prejudices and ideals about homeless people, there's a real danger you are not really doing anything other than pandering to their prejudices and cultural baggage."
Surely there is an equal danger that people will view the image and think in terms of helping the homeless

Yes.. you're correct. That may happen too. However... it's out of your control, as you did nothing to actually say what you wanted to say, and reduced the homeless person to a mere subject to photograph and left it to the view to decide. Not exactly the best way to get your message cross if you ask me.



Does my work need to 'say something'?


No.. it doesn't. Just be aware that people WILL give it a meaning whether YOU like it or not. Besides... many who have the attitude you have also believe that the photograph tells the truth... that "a picture speaks a thousand words" etc. That's simply not true.


Why cannot it make the viewer think and come to their own conclusions?


No reason... if that;'s what you want to do.. like I said... go for it No one's stopping you. Why are you objecting to me criticising a style of photography? Am I not allowed?

Do what you want Gramps. I'm just saying that to do this, is a bit sloppy. Feel free to ignore everything I say if you want though.
 
You keep putting words in quotation marks Gramps... that infers I used those words. I don't recall using that word either... I'm prepared to be wrong here, as I'm not going to rifle back through everything I've written, but you do have a habit of putting words I've never used in quotes... bad form old chap.

These " " are quotation marks David, these ' ' are not.

Do what you want Gramps. I'm just saying that to do this, is a bit sloppy. Feel free to ignore everything I say if you want though.

But who are you David to say that is is "sloppy"? < (quotation marks ... your word :) )
 
The last photograph here and particularly in the context of the accompanying text is the kind of street photography that needs to be done away with: https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/index.php?threads/579302/

Can't agree more.

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That's a shocking attitude. Reducing him to a target... a goal to be achieved in order to further your chances of getting praise for your work. Sorry.. It's self-congratulatory, narcissistic nonsense.

and the guy is sleeping under 2 x CCTV cameras ...

So?

But who are you David to say that is is "sloppy"? < (quotation marks ... your word :) )

I am me. Like I said.. feel free to ignore everything and anything I say Gramps.
 
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"Done away with"?
and the guy is sleeping under 2 x CCTV cameras ...
Yes. Done away with. It's completely exploitative and dehumanising. The language in the text is almost the language of a hunt. It's utterly crass.

The photographer even suggests that it was somehow apparent that the subject did not want to be photographed. Yet he goes and takes the picture anyway. And for what? There's absolutely no substance here other than the photographer trying to get a gritty picture for Facebook likes or the equivalent.

And what does it matter that he's sleeping under CCTV?
 
Yes. Done away with. It's completely exploitative and dehumanising. The language in the text is almost the language of a hunt. It's utterly crass.

The photographer even suggests that it was somehow apparent that the subject did not want to be photographed. Yet he goes and takes the picture anyway. And for what? There's absolutely no substance here other than the photographer trying to get a gritty picture for Facebook likes or the equivalent.

And what does it matter that he's sleeping under CCTV?

Sorry but I think you are way over the top ... not to mention being totally judgmental of the photographer on the basis of your view of one image.
 
Sorry but I think you are way over the top ... not to mention being totally judgmental of the photographer on the basis of your view of one image.

I don't think so.

"He saw us going UP and was very ' Camera Aware' so I didn't snap then on way back later he was asleep so I GOT him at f1.4 and 1/15 second !! "

Got him for what reason Gramps? GOT him? What exactly does THAT mean? Why be so determined to 'get' him when he didn't want to be 'got'? What purpose does that serve? For what reason was the image taken do you think? What do you see as the photographer's motivation then Gramps?

You think it was taken to show the effects of habitus on a marginalised group of people, or perhaps to highlight the problems with a punitive system of rehabilitation? Or.. do you think he took it because he thought it was a great shot that he can't wait to show people so he can feel good about himself as a photographer?
 
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I don't think so.

"He saw us going UP and was very ' Camera Aware' so I didn't snap then on way back later he was asleep so I GOT him at f1.4 and 1/15 second !! "

Got him for what reason Gramps? GOT him? What exactly does THAT mean? Why be so determined to 'get' him when he didn't want to be 'got'? What purpose does that serve? For what reason was the image taken do you think? What do you see as the photographer's motivation then Gramps?

You think it was taken to show the effects of habitus on a marginalised group of people, or perhaps to highlight the problems with a punitive system of rehabilitation? Or.. do you think he took it because he thought it was a great shot that he can't wait to show people so he can feel good about himself as a photographer?

I'm not going to make a judgment on him David, I don't know his thought processes ... I'll leave the castigating of him to others who are prepared to condemn someone without question.
As for being "camera aware" (< quotation), that does not have to mean he doesn't want to be "got" (<quotation), in the sense of his objecting ... it could equally mean that the photographer did not wish to have an image of him smiling ... or indeed doing anything that would be in a sense artificial to the scene.
The same as the guy on the train, "Hey Mr smile please" or "Mr, can I take your photo" ... the 'special' (< not quotation) moment is lost.
 
'Special' moment... yeah... right. The special moment was when he first saw the dude... not when he PLANNED to go back and GET him.

Sorry.... I know bulls**t when I smell it.

It shows a complete lack of empathy, humanity and decency. I condemn anyone who works like this, and treats people like objects who's only importance is a prop to get your images.

It's pathetic and cowardly and results in trite, tired work that just perpetuates stereotypes and clichés.
 
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'Special' moment... yeah... right. The special moment was when he first saw the dude... not when he PLANNED to go back and GET him.

How do you know, you weren't there, neither can you be sure of what the photographer was aiming for ... you are just judging him without knowledge. Why not PM him and tell him of your concerns or ask him what his thinking/intentions were when and before he took the shot ... at least that gives him an opportunity to defend himself as he's been individually identified and singled out for the castigation?
 
I can't find the photographer now, but I saw an interesting project in a day in the life of a London market, from the stalls being setup, the life of the market and the clearing up, including the homeless rummaging looking for food.
Mike Browne - not sure I've ever actually seen any street photos taken by him though
I like the bit where he is shooting with a massive tele lens the size of a rocket launcher outside a tesco metro and people do not want to walk in front of the lens :D
 
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How do you know, you weren't there, neither can you be sure of what the photographer was aiming for ... you are just judging him without knowledge. Why not PM him and tell him of your concerns or ask him what his thinking/intentions were when and before he took the shot ... at least that gives him an opportunity to defend himself as he's been individually identified and singled out for the castigation?


Because I judge the work from what he says about it. The fact that he says nothing about it, and the work says nothing about the subject, I can only assume it has nothing to say. Ultimately, I've seen enough of this kind of work to quickly form opinions on it. If you want, why don't YOU invite him to the thread. I'd be happy to hear what he has to say and discuss it.

Ultimately Gramps, you seem to have a problem with anyone criticising work: You think it's probably not nice. Well... when you post stuff online, or publish it in a book, or hang it in a gallery, you're inviting people to comment on it, criticise it, and discuss it. If people don't like that, then tough. You seem to think that discussing this work with the author not present is somehow immoral, yet no one in here thinks twice about commenting negatively on the work of the established or famous on this forum... complete with links to the work. They're people too you know. Should we criticise the work of the amateur, or unknown differently than the professional, or known? Is it more acceptable to criticise Salgado from Magnum than Joe Bloggs from Nowhereinparticlar?
 
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Mike Browne - not sure I've ever actually seen any street photos taken by him though
I like the bit where he is shooting with a massive tele lens the size of a rocket launcher outside a tesco metro and people do not want to walk in front of the lens :D

70-200 ... that'll go down well!
 
Because I judge the work from what he says about it. The fact that he says nothing about it, and the work says nothing about the subject, I can only assume it has nothing to say. Ultimately, I've seen enough of this kind of work to quickly form opinions on it. If you want, why don't YOU invite him to the thread. I'd be happy to hear what he has to say and discuss it.

Ultimately Gramps, you seem to have a problem with anyone criticising work: You think it's probably not nice. Well... when you post stuff online, or publish it in a book, or hang it in a gallery, you're inviting people to comment on it, criticise it, and discuss it. If people don't like that, then tough. You seem to think that discussing this work with the author not present is somehow immoral, yet no one in here thinks twice about commenting negatively on the work of the established or famous on this forum... complete with links to the work. They're people too you know. Should we criticise the work of the amateur, or unknown differently than the professional, or known? Is it more acceptable to criticise Salgado from Magnum than Joe Bloggs from Nowhereinparticlar?

Critique of work is one thing David and I have no objection to that whatsoever ... I get it all the time and benefit from much of it.
Critique has nothing to do with the comment on this particular image, it's merely been an exercise in jumping on someone without them having the opportunity to speak up for themselves ... you have just put him in a convenient little box marked 'Objectionable' and now wish to walk away.

Why do I need to invite him to defend himself, I am not the one making unqualified accusations?
 
That's a great image. I like it a lot. It's a great case study though. Its the kind of image often touted as being truthful and honest. It's not though is it. I only have what you give me, and you've edited that quite severely. Why is it black and white? It's an old man on a train and he's ignoring me (the viewer) completely, so I've no idea about him at all. If he as interacting with you (and therefore me the viewer) I'd be able to make judgements - the look on his face, his reactions, his body language....
Are you saying that street photography is only "honest" if the subject (or subjects) are interacting in some way with the photographer?
 
It's my opinion and my right to express it. I think the attitudes towards people exhibited by certain photographers are deplorable.

Deal with it or place me on ignore. I'm simply not bothered either way.
 
It's my opinion and my right to express it. I think the attitudes towards people exhibited by certain photographers are deplorable.

Deal with it or place me on ignore. I'm simply not bothered either way.

It's not an opinion though is it, it's an unsubstantiated judgment on the photographer.
"Deal with it or place me on ignore. I'm simply not bothered either way." (<quotation) ... what sort of an attitude is that?
 
Are you saying that street photography is only "honest" if the subject (or subjects) are interacting in some way with the photographer?


Yes. I'm not saying it's bad photography to do as you say, as I said above with regard to Dan's work. It can't be honest though, no, as photographs have no fixed meaning. Show me an image of someone with no context, and I'll find my own meaning. That may not be the same as your meaning. This is merely a fact. The idea that candid photography is more honest because people are not interacting with the camera is foolhardy. Where do you think the honesty is in such an image is? Where does it come from if not from the opinions and thoughts of the viewer. Their interpretation may be very different from yours. You can show the same image to 10 different people and get 10 different opinions on the subject, so where's the 'honesty'?

It's not an opinion though is it, it's an unsubstantiated judgment on the photographer.
"Deal with it or place me on ignore. I'm simply not bothered either way." (<quotation) ... what sort of an attitude is that?

No.. it's my opinion on his working methods and motivations. I can only judge him or his work by the work itself, and what he says about it.

As for the final point... it's the only sensible attitude I can think of. We disagree very strongly and neither us will sway the opinion of the other, so it's futile to try.
 
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Can't agree more.

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That's a shocking attitude. Reducing him to a target... a goal to be achieved in order to further your chances of getting praise for your work. Sorry.. It's self-congratulatory, narcissistic nonsense.
.
I've always treated his posts like he's some kind of Derek Pye figure. He appears to have gone to sleep at 1979 and woke up last year. I was certain we're not supposed to take him seriously.
 
It's not an opinion though is it, it's an unsubstantiated judgment on the photographer.
"Deal with it or place me on ignore. I'm simply not bothered either way." (<quotation) ... what sort of an attitude is that?

another response to that would be....

"He saw us going UP and was very ' Camera Aware' so I didn't snap then on way back later he was asleep so I GOT him at f1.4 and 1/15 second !! " <---- What sort of attitude is that?

You criticise me for a bad attitude simply because I don't really care what you think, yet defend the attitude of someone who treats a homeless person like a prop.


It's all about duality Gramps :)
 
I've always treated his posts like he's some kind of Derek Pye figure. He appears to have gone to sleep at 1979 and woke up last year. I was certain we're not supposed to take him seriously.

Well.. you CAN'T really can you?
 


It is interesting. It's not exploitative really, as there is clearly consent to a degree between photographer and subject. It IS naive though. It lacks the reflexivity of a true ethnographic account, and the accompanying text with her work only focuses on squalor and deprivation, and does nothing to illustrate the positive aspects. "Anfisa has grown up in a punk culture environment"... like.. so? LOL Why tell me that and then just leave me to my prejudices and personal knowledge to make sense of it?

It tries to shock, but it makes no real attempt to educate or inform. However, it can only really be exploitative if the subjects had no idea how their images were going to be used. So far as I'm aware, they were complicit. If I recall correctly... the family and friends were invited to the opening of the exhibition.
 
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You criticise me for a bad attitude simply because I don't really care what you think, yet defend the attitude of someone who treats a homeless person like a prop.

No I criticize you for attacking someone behind their back ... any criticism I make of you is here, to your face as it were.
 
It's not behind anyone's back, it's in an open forum, plain for all to see. I never post anything on the internet without being fully aware than anyone can read it, including the subject of my comments.
 
What is truth? The fact is, that if you had spoken to him... just struck up a conversation.. showed him the picture you'd taken.. then took another... YOU would have an idea of how he was, and may have actually taken a very different image as a result. As it is.. you took it, and treated it as a "photograph" only, and reduced the man to nothing more than an object to be lit, and represented in a way that serves no other purpose than to show your skills as a photographer.

I'm not saying that in THIS instance that's wrong... as the guy isn't being represented in any way that is derogatory or controversial... its just a man on a train. However, do work like this with vulnerable people, just to fit in with your agenda as a photographer making "good photographs" is exploitative, as you're allowing the viewer to infer whatever meaning THEY want onto the image, and as people have very different prejudices and ideals about homeless people, there's a real danger you are not really doing anything other than pandering to their prejudices and cultural baggage.[/QUOTE]

So if you talk to the homeless person before you take the picture the end viewer will somehow know that, and things will somehow be different? :thinking:
 
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There's a great deal of difference. If you were 5ft away the person would be reacting to you, and from 30ft away they would not, so you would get entirely different results. Also, even technically there would be massive differences... the look of the image: 5ft with a short lens will give the field of view and perspective we normally associate with being there... a 200mm lens does not. It looks totally different. It looks like a long lens shot, and removes any sense of presence from the image. I'm sorry, but for a photographer to say there's no difference in 5ft with a 35 and 30ft with a 200 is.. well.. quite surprising.

We've had great long lenses for some time.... they're not a recent invention :)

Where is this insistence that great street images need to be candid coming from? What a preposterous idea. So if the subject doesn't see you taking the shot its the truth? Really? Care to explain the rationale behind that? Any photographer who knows anything will tell you that there's no such thing as truth in an image alone. You have already edited real life, by choosing the exact moment to press the shutter... what to include, what to exclude. You are merely telling the story YOU want to tell.. not the truth. These candid shots tell me nothing about them. I have no idea who they are, what they're thinking, what kind of people they are. All I have is what you the photographer chooses to give me.

It's just one story... your story... not theirs.

If you are in any doubt about whether the subjects being participants in the shot, or aware of the shot can be more truthful than if they were shot candidly, then take a look at really great work with the homeless... stuff like Margaret Morton (Glass House) or even Dark Days by Marc Singer. If you do watch Dark Days.. watch the DVD version as there's a "making of" film as well. It demonstrates how Singer got the homeless people to actually be the film crew. They rigged up their own lighting, make their own dollies to run along the tracks... they were empowered totally, yet despite this it's perhaps one of the most honest, real films made of the New York homeless... ever.

You don't need to surprise people or sneak around to get honesty. That's one of the rookie mistakes that unfortunately persists in far too many people.

Documentary and ethnography produce the most honest, realistic accounts of people, and both require full co-operation from the subjects being explored. "street" photography that snipes from across the street is just people putting their own ideas, baggage, prejudices, and wants onto other people without their consent. What exactly is "honest" or "truthful" about sniping people from a distance without knowing anything about them, then representing them however you see fit without their consent? How is that "truthful"?

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BTW.. I'm not saying great images can't be taken without people knowing... just that honesty and truth have f**k all to do with it. You want truth, then get the people being shot to tell YOU what's what.. don't just represent people how you see fit. That's NOT honest... or truthful... that's bulls**t.


You are so full of s***! That is as much of a reply as you are worth to me.
 
So because a type of photography is popular it is unworthy?
People enjoy all sorts of ways of following their desire to engage in photography, whether is be considered street or candid, long lens or short ... it is one thing to suggest another approach but the constant "this is not street" becomes boring.
He is so full of crap. He trolls around giving his one sided opinion and states it as a fact. All the while insulting as many people as he can. Don't let him get under your skin because that seems to be his intent. I totally agree with what you said.
 
So if you talk to the homeless person before you take the picture the end viewer will somehow know that, and things will somehow be different? :thinking:

Yes.
 
You are so full of s***! That is as much of a reply as you are worth to me.

Thank you for you're mature and positive comments. I don't think you'll be winning any awards for the TP contributor of the year.

You ask for advice, and yet you don't like people's responses.
 
Sorry buts that's even lower than that you are complaining of. It adds nothing to the discussion and is a cheap insult. Please don't bring such comments to a worthwhile discussion.

He does that whenever anyone questions his ideas of "street" photography.

Not the first time, won't be the last.

And do these comments bring anything to this debate? Pretty low really. :(

There's a difference between being angry at someone for disagreeing with you over a photographic subject, and being angry at someone for treating a fellow human being like a prop.. there for your photography. The next time you think about how best to "get" that homeless person, consider that they're probably scared, cold, hungry, and vulnerable. They may be withdrawing from something and feel like they're going to die, and wondering when the next person is going to spit at them or tell them to 'get a job'. They're probably lonely.. no.. wrong word... they're probably alone. They've spent the majority of their lives being treated like nothing by the chattering classes who walk by ignorant to their suffering. They're a product of a post-thatcher, neo-liberal hellhole that you've all bought into... one that teaches you to walk past such people and dismiss them. Stop sniping at them with long lenses as if they're some wildlife you're too scared or repulsed to go near. Instead... connect. Say hi. Buy him a coffee.. hear what he has to say. Let him know that he's still connected to the human race, and stop making him feel like he's part of another society that has no worth or meaning. Doing that can genuinely make a difference. It won't change his life immeasurably, no... it won't stop him using.. it won't suddenly make him turn everything around overnight... but it will make a difference.

If you're too self obsessed to pay any attention to any of that... then maybe this will push the right 'I'm a selfish w****r' buttons.... It will also make a difference to your photography.
 
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Abuse is abuse, whichever side of the fence you sit on David. But I know you enjoy this, you are in your element now.
 
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Simply not worth it.
 
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And do these mature and positive comments bring anything to this debate? Pretty low really. :(
Didn't spot those, but they've have had the same response from me. It's ok to disagree but we're all adults here, lets actually discuss and argue points maturely.
 
Sorry buts that's even lower than that you are complaining of. It adds nothing to the discussion and is a cheap insult. Please don't bring such comments to a worthwhile discussion.

I am sorry that you and the rest had to see that but he need to realize it is not okay to insult people with his comments. Just look at his post and see the pattern of upsetting others. It is an ongoing thing.
 
Thank you for you're mature and positive comments. I don't think you'll be winning any awards for the TP contributor of the year.

You ask for advice, and yet you don't like people's responses.

Thank you for not paying attention to the constant rude and nasty comments he directs towards anyone that disagrees with him. When someone finally stands up to him this is the response that they get.
 
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