Is Manual mode on Digital cheating ?

[BADGER.BRAD]

I know that the end result is the important thing but I've been playing a little with manual mode. By looking at the rear screen or EVF it seems you would have to be a total idiot to get it wrong because it is all displayed in front of you, So is it not the case that Some of the " I only use Manual mode " types are just Hyping themselves up ? ( I'm ducking for cover ) Now I would be more impressed if they looked at the scene first, decided on the settings they were going to use, turn the camera on dial said settings in take an excellent photo ! ( Now digging a Bunker to hide in ) What do you think ?

 

[SFTPhotography]

Is using a light meter cheating, by using M mode you are using an inbuilt light meter and lining up the camera to give that exposure.

Why not just guess and hope for the best?

 

[welshwizard645]

No it isn't. Using the histogram 'properly' is just like using a light meter, and you have more control over the settings.

 

[woof woof]

I often use manual mode. I usually use it when the light level falls and Aperture priority chooses too low a shutter speed. When it does that I switch to manual mode and dial in the aperture and shutter settings I want and let auto ISO take care of the metering and with some of my cameras I can also dial in exposure compensation in manual mode.

 

[Pixbarmy]

It had been over forty years since I used my last "proper" (35mm) camera before I bought my Nikon digital. It totally freaked me out at first and I just stuck to auto everything at first. I am still at the experimental stage and yet can still guesstimate the aperture and speed settings, based on my past experience with a manual film camera. Cheating? Use what you have to get the best shot you can, I would say. A camera is a tool and the more that you use it, the more skilful you will be!

 

[Topsy]

Good luck getting any accurate feedback from my Leica M9 screens, I use them on manual all the time and very rarely look at the screen (no point it's awful).

 

[Cockney]

I often use manual mode. I usually use it when the light level falls and Aperture priority chooses too low a shutter speed. When it does that I switch to manual mode and dial in the aperture and shutter settings I want and let auto ISO take care of the metering and with some of my cameras I can also dial in exposure compensation in manual mode.

Rather than switch to manual in those circumstances I stick to Aperture Priority as I have auto ISO set as a default.

 

[woof woof]

Rather than switch to manual in those circumstances I stick to Aperture Priority as I have auto ISO set as a default.

The problem is that my cameras will select something like 1/60 and a lowish ISO even though I have auto ISO selected and that shutter speed may be fine for some subjects but for anything likely to move like people or even nature if there's any breeze 1/60 will probably be too slow to freeze any motion so I dial in something more appropriate in manual. Using shutter priority wouldn't allow me to select the aperture I want so manual is the best option for me, when the camera selects too slow a shutter speed.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

The problem is that my cameras will select something like 1/60 and a lowish ISO even though I have auto ISO selected and that shutter speed may be fine for some subjects but for anything likely to move like people or even nature if there's any breeze 1/60 will probably be too slow to freeze any motion so I dial in something more appropriate in manual. Using shutter priority wouldn't allow me to select the aperture I want so manual is the best option for me, when the camera selects too slow a shutter speed.

Many modern cameras have a min shutter speed setting within teh Auto ISo options that only gets overidden if it really runs out of light as the max ISO range setting - gets round this problem.

 

[woof woof]

Many modern cameras have a min shutter speed setting within teh Auto ISo options that only gets overidden if it really runs out of light as the max ISO range setting - gets round this problem.

I have an A7 and some Panasonic cameras and none afaik have it, I've looked. I'd have to see it in practice but I think I'd prefer manual mode as it's obvious what's going on and what mode I'm in whereas a minimum shutter speed could conceivably get in the way of what I want to do and need to be changed or cancelled for different lenses or subjects but when switching to manual the settings are there and if I want to change them, 1/20 for one picture to keep the ISO down and 1/160 for the next and let the ISO go higher is second nature and quick to do with no faffing with menus or even buttons and no wondering why I can't get it to do what I want.

Good luck to those who have and use minimum shutter speeds but even if I had the option I think I'd rather just use aperture and manual as I do now.

 

[MartynK]

Is using a light meter cheating, by using M mode you are using an inbuilt light meter and lining up the camera to give that exposure.

Why not just guess and hope for the best?

That's pretty much what I did when I was a teenager! Old Kodak 120 camera and Sunny 16 (Sunny 11?). It worked, sort of ...

 

[TimHughes]

Surely it’s about using the right tools for the job? I don’t see how “cheating” or “hyping” are relevant. Being quicker at choosing the best tool and being to use it to get want you want comes with experience. Personally I use the setting called “manual” a lot. The name is potentially misleading as you still have loads of options for automated assistance from auto ISO, with exposure compensation, different metering modes, autofocus, image stabilization, anti flicker and there is probably more I don’t remember.

 

[DemiLion]

Perhaps it might have been better if you had written your question properly instead of using shorthand?

That's why all of the answers aren't directed to what you intended.

From your post I am guessing that you are talking about mirrorless digital, cameras as opposed to DSLR's, which have a WYSIWYG interface.

To answer that question:

a) No, it's technology
b) If it really bothers you, you can turn the live exposure interpretation off.

 

[troutfisher]

Indoors using flash. Manual mode and a light meter, its either that or guessing until it looks right on the screen.

 

[Asha]

That's pretty much what I did when I was a teenager! Old Kodak 120 camera and Sunny 16 (Sunny 11?). It worked, sort of ...

And it’s an exposing method that will continue to work and one that I use quite often.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

Good luck getting any accurate feedback from my Leica M9 screens, I use them on manual all the time and very rarely look at the screen (no point it's awful).

and there was me thinking they were the Bees knees !

The problem is that my cameras will select something like 1/60 and a lowish ISO even though I have auto ISO selected and that shutter speed may be fine for some subjects but for anything likely to move like people or even nature if there's any breeze 1/60 will probably be too slow to freeze any motion so I dial in something more appropriate in manual. Using shutter priority wouldn't allow me to select the aperture I want so manual is the best option for me, when the camera selects too slow a shutter speed.

My A6000 does exactly this , I'm guessing it is choosing the settings purely based on exposure ( of course it doesn't know what you are shooting) . You definatley need to over ride them some times. It would be interesting to see if iA would work it out better !

Surely it’s about using the right tools for the job? I don’t see how “cheating” or “hyping” are relevant. Being quicker at choosing the best tool and being to use it to get want you want comes with experience. Personally I use the setting called “manual” a lot. The name is potentially misleading as you still have loads of options for automated assistance from auto ISO, with exposure compensation, different metering modes, autofocus, image stabilization, anti flicker and there is probably more I don’t remember.

I would agree with you totally and my some what tongue in cheek dig was more aimed at the I only shoot in manual because that makes me a better more manly photographer sort of guy rather than those using it to suit the scene or look they are after. We have all heard them " Well I have a Sony A99 because anything less wouldn't be worth while using you would be just playing. I once whilst using a 1931 Kodak Brownie was told by a guy ( it happened to be a Sony A7 with a super long lens he was using) that I should get myself a digital camera much better ! It seemed a point lost on him that I was using it by choice rather than I couldn't afford a new camera ! I had to ditch the idiot in the end rather than tell him where to shove his extra long lens ! He seemed to be stalking me

 

[woof woof]

My A6000 does exactly this , I'm guessing it is choosing the settings purely based on exposure ( of course it doesn't know what you are shooting) . You definatley need to over ride them some times.

My Panasonics do it too. I can see why as keeping the ISO low will help the image quality but 1/60 may not be suitable for some subjects.

 

[LeeRatters]

I tend to use manual or Av.

The most important thing isn't really what mode you always use, but using the correct mode that suits your shooting, the scenario & gets you the result you want to achieve

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So who could you possibly cheat?
Certainly not your camera.
You camera has a number of in built controls, that you can set your self.
Or use the inbuilt Automatic modes to set them for you.
A skilled photographer should know the conditions when the auto settings will give poor results.
I usually use the semi automatic aperture priority mode, with manual override.
And where necessary fully manual settings.

None of this is in any way cheating.
For most multi-shot pans I use manual everything, as you need every shot to be taken with the same settings. So as to blend successfully in the final stitch. Most critical work needs to have at least a degree of manual intervention, either to focus, exposure or colour balance.

 

[boer13]

It is indeed simple. You choose what you want direct control over and then you control it. If you want to control aperture and exposure time simultaneously, you use Manual mode.
Auto ISO may or may not be useful, so again - choose according to what you need. We're all using technology to our advantage, right?

(BTW.. does this forum actually allow anybody being called an idiot?)

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

(BTW.. does this forum actually allow anybody being called an idiot?)

There is always one ! At which point did I call any individual an idiot ? As you will see by going back and reading the first post it was a bit tongue in cheek ! please read my signature should I be hung for that too !

 

[sirch]

Even the concept of "cheating" in the context of a making photographic image baffles me. Google tells me that cheating is "to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage" in what sense are you being dishonest or unfair? Over whom are you gaining an advantage?

 

[Cockney]

My Panasonics do it too. I can see why as keeping the ISO low will help the image quality but 1/60 may not be suitable for some subjects.

I have the Lumix G80. Inteligent ISO (iISO) does a far better job as it recognises movement. It suits my needs in Ap. Not ghe total cotrol you are after though.
The G80 does NOT have a minimum shutter speed option for some reason.

 

[Cockney]

To play devils advocate, if the camera uses auto ISO in manual, is that truly manual?

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

was more aimed at the I only shoot in manual because that makes me a better more manly photographer sort of guy

Such are always with us, unfortunately.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

O.k as a bit of fun I pitted myself against the camera in difficult light, the camera in iA. As you can see I'm on battered Nokia level the Camera is more on Latest Smart phone level. I looked at the scene with the naked eye and chose the setting then let the camera do it's thing. I've hardly ever used iA before !




me


iA



me


iA


Me

 

[Brentor]

To play devils advocate, if the camera uses auto ISO in manual, is that truly manual?

I agree but for most people it works. If I use auto iso I set a max amount. If necessary you can set aperture, shutter speed and iso, but it is more of a pain.

 

[TimHughes]

To play devils advocate, if the camera uses auto ISO in manual, is that truly manual?

It’s the manufacturers name for the mode. With all the automation available not only auto ISO it’s potentially a misleading label I agree. I don’t think it matters though.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I know that the end result is the important thing

To go back to the original posting: yes! The end result is what matters and how you achieve it is up to you.

 

[woof woof]

To play devils advocate, if the camera uses auto ISO in manual, is that truly manual?

Yes, I think it is and all the bells and whistles can always be disabled if that's what the user wants and in that sense manual is far more manual than any of the other modes.

 

[adrianday]

Setting the aperture and shutter speed and allowing the camera to alter the ISO isn't manual, it's auto-ISO. It's enabled on some cameras by setting the dial to M and enabling auto-ISO. On others, there might be a specific setting for auto-ISO (TAv). In these cases the M mode will use fixed aperture, shutter speed and ISO. Using auto-ISO and setting exposure compensation is just that, adjusting a setting the camera has selected. Most cameras feature a multitude of metering modes, (average, centre, spot, highlight, etc.). Using the wrong metering mode can ruin an exposure even if auto-ISO is selected.

I'll join the OP in his bunker and say that people who say they only shoot in manual when in fact they're shooting in auto-ISO are fooling themselves.

 

[Ed Sutton]

I'll join the OP in his bunker and say that people who say they only shoot in manual when in fact they're shooting in auto-ISO are fooling themselves.

That depends.

If you never look at the ISO then yes, but if you keep an eye on the ISO that the camera sets and alter shutter speed or aperture in order to change it to suit your requirements, then no, because you are controlling all three settings. Throw in exposure compensation (which only affects the ISO) then you're have even more control.

As for 'cheating', there are no rules to taking photos so you can't cheat.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

What do you think ?

I think you need to go out and take some photos, and repeat for as long as necessary to stop such thoughts

 

[woof woof]

Setting the aperture and shutter speed and allowing the camera to alter the ISO isn't manual, it's auto-ISO. It's enabled on some cameras by setting the dial to M and enabling auto-ISO. On others, there might be a specific setting for auto-ISO (TAv). In these cases the M mode will use fixed aperture, shutter speed and ISO. Using auto-ISO and setting exposure compensation is just that, adjusting a setting the camera has selected. Most cameras feature a multitude of metering modes, (average, centre, spot, highlight, etc.). Using the wrong metering mode can ruin an exposure even if auto-ISO is selected.

I'll join the OP in his bunker and say that people who say they only shoot in manual when in fact they're shooting in auto-ISO are fooling themselves.

But what is full manual? Set the aperture, shutter and ISO and still use the cameras metering and surely that isn't manual. Using a light meter isn't manual either I suppose as you're still relying on a device. I suppose the only way to go full manual is using sunny 16 or your own guess based on past experience but really, beyond a few notable exceptions the camera is going to get it mostly right a lot of the time so what's the point? And then there's colour science, sharpness and noise reduction and baked in lens profiles and everything else that the kit does for you.

For me the aperture and the shutter and getting an acceptable exposure are important but of those I'd rather control the aperture and shutter and leave the camera to work out the ISO while I concentrate on the composition and pressing the shutter at the right moment and doing it all for the badge seems like a recipe for missing shots. The important thing is IMO knowing when and why to over ride the cameras decisions.

 

[TimHughes]

people who say they only shoot in manual when in fact they're shooting in auto-ISO are fooling themselves.

I guess that depends on what people mean when they say they use manual mode with auto ISO. People who understand how they are using this mode to get the results they need, and people listening to them who also understand the possibilities of this mode are not fooling anyone, they are using the tools in a way that suits them to get the job done.

I agree that "Shutter and Aperture Priority" would be a better name for the mode as it is a more accurate description.

 

[adrianday]

But what is full manual? Set the aperture, shutter and ISO and still use the cameras metering and surely that isn't manual.

Even if you used the built-in meter in spot mode to pre-meter the scene?

Using a light meter isn't manual either I suppose as you're still relying on a device. I suppose the only way to go full manual is using sunny 16 or your own guess based on past experience but really, beyond a few notable exceptions the camera is going to get it mostly right a lot of the time so what's the point? And then there's colour science, sharpness and noise reduction and baked in lens profiles and everything else that the kit does for you.

For me the aperture and the shutter and getting an acceptable exposure are important but of those I'd rather control the aperture and shutter and leave the camera to work out the ISO while I concentrate on the composition and pressing the shutter at the right moment and doing it all for the badge seems like a recipe for missing shots. The important thing is IMO knowing when and why to over ride the cameras decisions.

100% agreed. I rarely shoot in full-manual. I'll sometimes use a meter to get an incident light reading prior to setting aperture/shutter speed in auto-ISO mode to ensure that the ISO isn't perhaps too high. I use auto-ISO with an appropriate metering mode the majority the time - but I don't personally consider that to be shooting in manual. Like you say, it's all about learning to use the cameras you have such that you don't miss shots. Hell, there are even times when I use the P-is-for-professional mode!

 

[woof woof]

Even if you used the built-in meter in spot mode to pre-meter the scene?

100% agreed. I rarely shoot in full-manual. I'll sometimes use a meter to get an incident light reading prior to setting aperture/shutter speed in auto-ISO mode to ensure that the ISO isn't perhaps too high. I use auto-ISO with an appropriate metering mode the majority the time - but I don't personally consider that to be shooting in manual. Like you say, it's all about learning to use the cameras you have such that you don't miss shots. Hell, there are even times when I use the P-is-for-professional mode!

Well, obviously if you do that you're not going full manual as you're relying on the camera to do a job for you.

My point is that going full manual with modern kit is difficult and I'd argue often time overly and needlessly consuming and very possibly pointless unless in specific instances when for example the cameras metering will probably be predictably off and / or not in line with the end look you want to achieve. It is however a good idea to understand when it's a good idea to over ride what the camera is doing and manual mode, and that's what it says on the camera, is the mode in which you have the most control and can either enter your own settings or change those set by the camera and AFAIK you can't do all that in any other mode. However, the camera is still doing a lot for you as these days lots of stuff is baked in.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

I'll put another spanner in the works and ask is it still manual if you use auto focus ? I know of course you can use various methods to get it to focus where you want but do you actually focus the camera ?
Just to put the record straight my thoughts are especially for us Hobby photographers is it doesn't matter how you get your results or even if your results are good or bad it's about do you enjoy doing it ? A hell of a lot of my photos are taken on a point and press cameras in auto it just works for me ( small camera I can carry whilst doing other things) some times I manipulate the camera a little by using it's presets or other wise and I enjoy it ! Fair enough I'm unlikely to win any awards but not being a competitive person I'm not trying to.
As for anyone else whether you use a home made pinhole film camera or the latest Canon 5000000mp camera or like many of use a range of cameras in between as long as you enjoy it good luck

 

[myotis]

I know that the end result is the important thing but I've been playing a little with manual mode. By looking at the rear screen or EVF it seems you would have to be a total idiot to get it wrong because it is all displayed in front of you, So is it not the case that Some of the " I only use Manual mode " types are just Hyping themselves up ? ( I'm ducking for cover ) Now I would be more impressed if they looked at the scene first, decided on the settings they were going to use, turn the camera on dial said settings in take an excellent photo ! ( Now digging a Bunker to hide in ) What do you think ?

OK, I'll join in.

I don't see how it's possible to select a "proper" or "optimal" exposure by looking at the EVF or rear screen.

The image you see is based on a "processed" raw image i.e. what the JPEG will look like. A correctly exposed JPEG is an underexposed raw.

You eyes adjust to ambient lighting conditions, and you can adjust the brightness of the EVF of rear screen so how can you accurately assess exposure by looking at the EVF/rear screen.

I think it's a great feature to immediately see grossly wrong exposures, but not for assessing whether you are at the "correct" exposure.

As for the subsequent discussion on "manual" mode. I think of manual as being where the photographer consciously selects shutter speed, aperture and ISO. I don't think it matters whether you get help from a built in, or hand held meter, blinkies, or a histogram. None of these things force you to use a specific setting without you actively interpreting what the tool is telling you, and you actively selecting the settings.

Many people probably use semi-manual exposure. e.g. I often use auto-iso with manually selected shutter and apertures (bird photographs). I try to predict the aperture and shutter speed I will want, but I also keep an eye on the auto ISO in the viewfinder and adjust the shutter speed or aperture to indirectly adjust the ISO.

I also rarely take a picture without a tweak on the exposure compensation dial (which also adjusts the ISO), and I have a function key set to temporarily activate nikons, rather clever, highlight recovery metering, which can be instantly hit to avoid blowing out highlights e.g. when you have a white bird fly against a dark background.

So I have an auto exposure approach which still lets me feel in full "manual" control, except for grab shots I don't have time to think about. On those occasions, I am grateful for the auto-exposure features.

On your final point, I still use handheld spot meters to read light levels (for landscapes), so I kind of also do what your last sentence says, I take several light readings across the scene, decide on the optimal shutter speed and aperture for the scene and set those on the camera while ignoring what the camera meter says, or what the live view looks like. I obviously don't use auto-iso, or exposure compensation or highlight metering in this instance.

 

[adrianday]

I also rarely take a picture without a tweak on the exposure compensation dial (which also adjusts the ISO), and I have a function key set to temporarily activate nikons, rather clever, highlight recovery metering, which can be instantly hit to avoid blowing out highlights e.g. when you have a white bird fly against a dark background.

The person at Nikon who came up with the idea of 'highlight weighted metering' deserves a big hug. It's quite possibly the best thing since deep fried Mars bars.